National Minimum Wage

Brian H. Donohoe Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves]

I will come to that point shortly because the number of firms that are getting out of paying the minimum wage is incredibly worrying. We suggest increasing the fine to £50,000 for not paying the minimum wage, but there is no point in having such a fine if the legislation is not enforced.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

Today’s Glasgow Herald reports that the fine will go up to £20,000 from where it is today. Surely, that is not nearly enough, given that hundreds of thousands of people are not even paid the very minimum wage of £6.31 an hour.

[Rachel Reeves]

At the Labour party conference, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition called for the fine to be increased to £50,000, and I support that. It is also important that companies that get out of paying the minimum wage are prosecuted, and we are not seeing that under this Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:

“notes that since 2010, the Government has increased the National Minimum Wage each year, despite the worst recession in living memory, to protect the income of the low paid and increase their wages relative to average earnings, and is cutting taxes for the low paid to boost take home pay by £705 a year, taking 2.7 million out of income tax altogether; welcomes increased employment under this Government, which is at its highest ever level; notes that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has asked the Low Pay Commission for an assessment of how it might achieve a higher National Minimum Wage in the future without damaging employment; further notes that the Government has maintained a central enforcement body that covers all areas of the UK and ensures a consistent approach and high quality service; and further notes that the Government is quadrupling fines for employers in breach of paying the National Minimum Wage and has already made it easier to name and shame employers who flout the rules.”.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to move the Government amendment. Before I get down to the detailed substance of the motion, I want to say that this debate gives us the opportunity to discuss in more detail the regulations that, following my announcement before Christmas, I have laid today to increase penalties for non-compliance with the minimum wage by a factor of four. I also want to reinforce my earlier commitment that we will not merely do that but will proceed to introduce primary legislation to enable fines to be applied per worker, rather than per company, which will make them a great deal more forceful.

[Mr Donohoe]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Vince Cable]

I will take an intervention later.

The shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), misadvised one of her Back Benchers, the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck), who quite rightly intervened, in relation to care workers, about there being no payment between jobs for social workers carrying out domiciliary care. That is actually an abuse of the minimum wage legislation. It has now been recognised as an abuse, and colleagues in the Department of Health, as well as my Department and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, are making efforts to ensure that the regulations are properly enforced.

[Mr Donohoe]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Vince Cable]

Let me carry on for a few minutes. The hon. Gentleman knows that I always take interventions. Let me just build an argument and then I will allow him to respond.

Let me start with the very basics. It is a little difficult to do so in the face of the relentless tribalism that we have just heard, but I would say at the outset that the introduction of the national minimum wage was a real achievement of the previous Government. There were not many achievements, but two will stand the test of time: the establishment of the independent Bank of England and the establishment of the national minimum wage. [Interruption.] Indeed, there were others, but those were the two main ones in the economic field.

Having said that, I attempted to be constructive about the motion, but one blindingly obvious point is that the centrepiece of the national minimum wage legislation—the establishment of a non-partisan, non-political Low Pay Commission—did not even merit a mention. The shadow Secretary of State referred to it only in response to an intervention. That is rather important, because it suggests one of two things. The first possibility is that Labour Members do not understand how their own system works. Indeed, I heard a Labour Member cry out earlier, “Why don’t you make it increase the minimum wage?”, so there are clearly people who do not understand the mechanism. The second possibility is that Labour Members do not respect the basis of the system, which is independent advice from a non-partisan body. That advice has been followed consistently by successive Secretaries of State, including my Labour predecessors. That is the strength of the system and that is why there is political consensus behind it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Vince Cable]

Yes, it is now the law. Of course we support enforcement of the law. I do not understand the question.

[Mr Donohoe]

Will the Secretary of State tell us why he came to the conclusion that the fine should go from £5,000 to £20,000, rather than the £50,000 that would deter all those gangsters out there who are not paying the minimum wage?

[Vince Cable]

The rise to £20,000 is a fourfold increase. However, the big difference is in applying that fine per worker rather than per company. That is a considerable escalation of the penalties. I hope that we will have the support of Opposition Members in voting that through.

--- Later in debate ---

[Vince Cable]

On the last point, the hon. Gentleman may well be right, although I have seen an analysis suggesting that, because of the effect on corporate taxation, which offsets those gains, he is not. However, on the more substantive point about politicians intervening to override the Low Pay Commission, I believe that we should not be dogmatic about it. In the overriding majority of cases, it behoves the Secretary of State to listen carefully to the Low Pay Commission and it would be unusual to override it. He cites one case, and I have actually overridden the Low Pay Commission—on the apprenticeship wage, which I thought was excessively low, giving the wrong signal to young people and others who wanted to do apprenticeships. I made a decision on that specific issue to intervene and disregard the advice of the Low Pay Commission. If that became a habit, however, and if its advice were overridden on a major issue of pay policy, the minimum wage structure would crumble from being politicised in that way.

[Mr Donohoe]

To ask a simple question, what is the minimum wage for apprenticeships?

[Vince Cable]

I think it is £2.68, and it was going to be frozen at £2.65. [Interruption.] It is a very small increase, but there was an issue of principle involved, which is why I intervened to change it.

Let me proceed on the issue of the mandate. The Low Pay Commission has consistently regarded jobs as an important objective of policy—rightly, and we must respect that judgment because it is based on serious analysis. Let me quote a good study carried out by the Resolution Foundation, and I believe the National Institute of Economic and Social Research was involved, too. It analysed the effects of a general increase to the living wage level, which Labour Members would like to see happen.

The analysis suggests that if other things were equal and if all low pay were increased to the level of the living wage, there would be a net loss of 160,000 jobs. Worse than that, there would be a loss of 300,000 jobs among the unskilled and among young workers, because massive substitution would take place. That does not mean that the living wage is a bad idea as a voluntary principle, but it does spell out very brutally what would happen if Governments ignored the Low Pay Commission and took a cavalier view of the impact of the minimum wage on jobs.