Defence Transformation

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

What I want to achieve—I go back to this point again—is a complete Army of reserves and regulars that is genuinely deployable. We have to increase the deployable number because that is what gives us our military effect. There is no point in having bigger armed forces when the budget does not allow us to fully train and equip them, because it is the military effect that we need to preserve. The real betrayal was the Labour party under-equipping our armed forces, as it did so often when it was in government, not the proposals I have put forward today.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

If the previous Government had made this statement, I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would have welcomed seeing the British Army reduced to the size that it was when Colonel Robert Baden-Powell was involved in the siege of Mafeking in the Boer war. The Secretary of State says that the Army will be formed into five multi-role brigades. Will he clarify where 16 Air Assault Brigade and the Colchester garrison fit into that?

[Dr Fox]

The five multi-role brigades are the core of what the Army will do, but one air assault brigade and one commando brigade will of course remain separate from that shape, so there will be no real difference to the lay-down that my hon. Friend describes. As for the Labour party having introduced such a programme in government, it would never have done so because it had no idea how bad the economic circumstances were that it was creating.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

Will the Secretary of State clarify whether the co-operation between the French and the UK armed forces will enable in 2015 celebrations of that great away win over the French—the battle of Waterloo?

[Dr Fox]

It is for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to celebrate, and carry the budget for celebrating, historic events. It does no country a disservice, however, to remember that we have benefited from our armed forces in security not only today but throughout our history.

Defence Reform

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

But of course this is not a process that is run by the CDS. As part of the defence board, we have purposely set up the chiefs of staff committee so that the views of the chiefs of staff can be discussed collectively before the defence board and reflected to it by the CDS, not formulated unilaterally by the CDS.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

The Secretary of State referred to a “radical new approach to the management of defence” and a “new, leaner defence board”. In that spirit, how many ministerial posts are going to be axed?

[Dr Fox]

As my hon. Friend knows, it is not for me to determine the number of Ministers in Her Majesty’s Government. What we have said, however, is that when we have had time to address the Levene report in greater detail, we may well look at the designation of Ministers— their titles and specific roles—to see whether we can bring the organisation of the ministerial team better into line with the organisation of the Department.

Armed Forces Covenant

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 16th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

I have a sister who is a doctor and a sister who is a lawyer. My father used to say we had the best of both worlds—the licence to steal and the licence to kill—but I have never taken such caricatures as necessarily being the honest truth. I will not be tempted down the road where my hon. Friend tries to tempt me, except to say that in striking a balance in the legislation, we have sought to minimise the risk of the kind of behaviour that he mentions, while trying to ensure that we honour our responsibilities and give a sound legal basis to the covenant that we are putting forward.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

The coalition Government can take pride in the fact that in our first year we have introduced legislation to enshrine in law the armed forces covenant. I pay tribute to the Royal British Legion for what it has done. I am delighted that the Secretary of State has told us that in Cabinet there is cross-departmental support. With that in mind, will he give me an assurance that the need for funding to improve and modernise the family accommodation of our brave service personnel will be put on the agenda?

[Dr Fox]

I am grateful to acknowledge the long-running support that my hon. Friend has given on these matters. He will be extremely pleased today that we have managed to achieve what we have. With regard to the speed at which we can make some of the improvements to accommodation, we are limited by budgetary constraints. We will want to go as quickly as we can. We fully recognise, as we have set out, what our responsibilities are. We also have, as I hate to point out, a wider responsibility to be fiscally conservative, to bring our budget back within affordability and to restore the nation’s economy to health, because that gives us the ability in the longer term to make the investments that we all want to see.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 14th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

The number of trainee pilots is designed to mirror the number of airframes that we intend to be able to fly in future. That was set out in the SDSR. As I remind hon. Members on every occasion, one of the reasons that we are having to make reductions in the budget is the £158 billion deficit left behind by the Labour Government, on which the interest payments alone are greater than next year’s defence, Foreign Office and aid budgets put together.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

The House rightly pays tribute to our military personnel who are serving in Afghanistan. On Friday the Minister for the Armed Forces visited the Colchester garrison, where he will have seen on one side of the road former Army housing that is now social housing, on which millions of pounds are being spent by one arm of Government. Can the Minister explain why the same amount cannot be spent on housing on the other side of the road, where the fathers and husbands of military personnel in Afghanistan live?

Support for UK Armed Forces and Veterans

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. The armed forces represent the whole United Kingdom, and it would be a dereliction of duty if we did not ensure that the same service were available throughout the United Kingdom. It is therefore incumbent on the devolved Administrations to work with the Government to ensure that those mechanisms are put in place. My colleagues and I will certainly take opportunities to talk to the devolved Governments, as we do, and on that issue we will want to be as close to uniformity as possible, given of course their freedoms to put different mechanisms in place. He makes a very good point, however, and I shall ensure that I reinforce it when I next meet the devolved bodies.

As I said, we are about to launch formally the new 24-hour veterans mental health helpline, which will be operated by the Rethink charity on behalf of Combat Stress and funded by the Department of Health. We believe that it will help to tackle one of the most difficult aspects of mental health care by creating an environment where those who fear that they are suffering from mental problems can get in touch with someone who understands not only the problems themselves, but the stigma that some veterans still feel is attached to coming forward. This goes back to the point that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made. We have to ensure that there are services, and that those who need them are willing and able to access them, because that is what ultimately determines the outcome. Such initiatives show how we are working effectively with other agencies—whether Government or charities—to provide the services that people need.

The role of service personnel families is not always so visible, but it too is crucial to our defence effort. Service families bear a lot of the pressure. From the five years that I worked as a doctor with service families, I know the pressure that they can be under, and it is often invisible to those outside the armed forces. They share the burden of frequent moves, sometimes at short notice, with disruption to careers and to children’s education. They often share the experience of service accommodation, and when their loved one is away on operational service, sometimes in dangerous circumstances, they in particular deserve our understanding and support, given their vital role in ensuring that our operations are a success.

[Bob Russell]

Families not only need our understanding and support, but decent houses in which to live. Does the Secretary of State agree that the quality of some family housing is not acceptable, and that it is one area in which the Government have to find the money? If we are to send soldiers to put their lives on the line in Afghanistan, the least we can do is ensure that their families back home have decent accommodation.

[Dr Fox]

My hon. Friend makes a useful point, which I shall come to in a moment.

The wide range of welfare support for families is being expanded. As set out in the defence and security review, the Ministry of Defence is starting work on developing options for a new employment model. Its aim is to provide an overall package, including career structure, pay, allowances and accommodation policies, that offers greater domestic stability, helping spouses to pursue their own careers and supporting children’s education, while still allowing for mobility when it is essential to defence requirements.

We would dearly like to do more, for example on improving service family accommodation, which my hon. Friend mentions and we know to be one of the greatest concerns to service families. About £61.6 million has been allocated in the current financial year for the upgrade of, and the improvement programmes for, service accommodation. That will include upgrading some 800 service family homes to the top standard, with a further 4,000 properties benefiting from other improvements such as new kitchens, bathrooms, double glazing and so on.

It would be dishonest of me, however, if I were not to say that we must recognise that we cannot go as far or as fast as we would like to, given the economic situation that we have inherited, but we can and will do what we can, when we can.

Armed Forces (Redundancies)

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

First, as I have just explained to the House, this is not a new announcement but simply procedure following on from the announcements made in the SDSR. Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman is correct to say that this is the second time that we have had an urgent question on this subject, and I noticed that when the Opposition last had the opportunity to ask a question, they were not asking for details about these particular schemes but wanted to talk about e-mails and other peripheral issues. For them suddenly to come forward with a new-found interest in this particular issue strikes me as the most sad and cynical opportunism.

I have repeatedly made it clear that we have compulsory redundancy schemes in the armed forces because we need to maintain the rank structure and skills base required. When compulsory redundancies are announced, they will not affect those in receipt of the operational allowance, those within six months of deploying or those on post-operational tour leave, as I made clear in the House.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

Sadly, the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have to refer to the fallen on occasions. As we speak, a military funeral is taking place at St Peter’s church in Colchester, so the statement that we have been given is very important.

The Secretary of State has twice now given the House assurances that members of 16 Air Assault Brigade from my constituency serving in Afghanistan will not be made compulsorily redundant. Does he agree, however, that the manner in which the Ministry of Defence is handling matters causes concern not only to serving personnel in Afghanistan but to their families back home?

[Dr Fox]

The processes being followed are those that the armed forces would normally follow when setting out redundancies. There is never a good time to announce redundancies. It is particularly politically difficult when our armed forces are in combat in Afghanistan. However, if we are to keep faith with our personnel, we must follow the timetables that we have set out for them. It would be easy to delay announcements at the inconvenience of our service personnel simply for the convenience for politicians. That is entirely the wrong way to proceed.

Military Covenant

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

Wrong one.

The point is well made by the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock. We understand the problems that we face, but it was inevitable when we had to make reductions under the SDSR that there would be changes to the basing. We are sympathetic to the local needs that she mentions.

[Bob Russell]

The Secretary of State will join me in mentioning a body that, as far as I recall, has not yet been referred to—the reserves and Territorials, without whom our actions in Afghanistan would be all the poorer.

[Dr Fox]

I realise that I might have a soporific effect on Members, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman missed my reference to the importance of the reserves. The Government are acutely aware of their importance and the part they play in the wider security of our country.

Armed Forces (Redundancies)

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

Indeed I will, and I shall be happy to meet the right hon. Gentleman if there are particular cases and circumstances that he wants me to look into. In general, the redundancies that will occur in the military as a result of the strategic defence and security review and the comprehensive spending review will be compulsory. For civilian staff, we want to consider natural wastage and voluntary redundancies where possible.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

With soldiers from the Colchester garrison in 16 Air Assault Brigade currently deployed in Afghanistan, I remind the Secretary of State what he said to me on 8 November in response to a direct question:

“We need to maintain the Afghanistan rotation. It is therefore in the interests of common sense and fair play that no personnel serving in Afghanistan, or on notice to deploy, will be given compulsory redundancy.”—[Official Report, 8 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 12.]

Does that pledge still stand?

[Dr Fox]

Yes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 31st January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

A key player in the security situation in Afghanistan is Pakistan, which, in the war on terror, has seen more of its civilians and security and military personnel killed than any other country. Last week, I was part of a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association delegation to Pakistan. Will the Secretary of State join me in thanking the Government and people of Pakistan for their efforts to date and encourage them to maintain that level so that our forces in Afghanistan are supported?

[Dr Fox]

What we are attempting to deliver in Afghanistan will not be possible without the support of the Government of Pakistan. Perhaps a good note for all of us to have would be one that reminds us to thank the Government of Pakistan when they do what is helpful to the mission rather than criticise them when the opposite is true. It is also of great importance that we in the United Kingdom, and our allies, make it clear that we have a post-Afghanistan strategy for Pakistan and that we intend to have a long-term programme of help and encouragement.

Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 10th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

The hon. Gentleman well knows that the Government are examining basing, and will report to Parliament in due course. I believe that it is not a matter for the Bill.

Clause 1 provides for renewal of the legislation, which would otherwise expire in November. It allows the legislation to be renewed each year through an Order in Council, which must be debated and approved by both Houses of Parliament. However, the clause also provides that renewal by Order in Council may be done for a maximum of only five years, after which the Act must once again be renewed by primary legislation. The effect is that the legislation governing the armed forces will expire no later than 2016, unless it is renewed before then by primary legislation. That rightly provides for parliamentary scrutiny. In effect, it is the mechanism whereby parliamentary control over our armed forces is exercised.

I wish to focus on four topics: the armed forces covenant; the independence of the service police forces; testing for drugs and alcohol, and the appointment of civilian prosecutors. I believe that they are likely to be the subjects of greatest interest to hon. Members during the Bill’s passage.

I should like to begin with the clause that refers to the armed forces covenant. Since coming to office, the coalition Government have confirmed their commitment to rebuilding the covenant, to do the right thing by the men and women who have joined our armed forces, today and in the past, together with their families.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his recent visit to 16th Air Assault Brigade in Helmand province and for his generous words there and on his return.

The Secretary of State will know that I put a question to the Prime Minister only a few weeks ago about whether it was fair for war widows to pay tax on their war widows’ pensions. Will that requirement be removed as part of the covenant?

[Dr Fox]

No, not as part of the Bill. However, while the Bill sets out the framework for the covenant, there are ample opportunities in Parliament to change any of the rules and regulations that relate to the armed forces in several ways, through the usual procedures available to the House.

As the House will know, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has spoken of the Government’s desire to enshrine the covenant in law. We have been considering the best way to do that. Our starting point is that the armed forces covenant is fundamentally a moral obligation on the Government, the nation and the armed forces. It is an agreement between the armed forces and the whole nation, not just the Government. It can never be defined by a host of rules and regulations, designed to tell everyone exactly what to do in every circumstance. Certainly, as I have just said to my hon. Friend, when rules need to be changed, we will do so. However, generally the people of this country know how service personnel should be treated, and our task is to create the right framework for that to happen.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Monday 8th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

As I have just said, it is for the service chiefs to set out over the coming months exactly which redundancies they think will be necessary. I am sorry that I cannot be more specific at this time in relation to the services or to the civil service, as we will seek to use natural wastage and careful management of recruits in the armed forces to minimise the number of redundancies required.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

Will the Secretary of State give a guarantee that no soldier from 16 Air Assault Brigade currently serving in Afghanistan will be made redundant?

[Dr Fox]

We need to maintain the Afghanistan rotation. It is therefore in the interests of common sense and fair play that no personnel serving in Afghanistan, or on notice to deploy, will be given compulsory redundancy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Fox]

As I indicated to the House earlier, we are currently looking at the full implications of bringing the Army back from Germany. There will undoubtedly be some up-front costs, depending on the pace of those forces coming back, but there will be considerable savings, to be set out over the longer period. We will set those out when we conclude the basing review in six months.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

T9. I thought that the Minister’s response to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) was lacking in political direction and conviction. Bearing in mind that Her Majesty the Queen, as the Head of State of both Australia and New Zealand, has graciously authorised the award of a national defence medal, can we not have that in the United Kingdom for those who have served?

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Thursday 4th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

Mr Speaker, I completely apologise for any inconvenience to you or the House as a result of my late attendance.

Last month, the Government published the strategic defence and security review. This was a thorough, cross-Government strategic effort, overseen by the National Security Council, looking at all aspects of security and defence. It describes the adaptable posture that we have chosen to meet the threats and exploit the opportunities that we identified in the national security strategy.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

I intervene to assist the Secretary of State. He should pour a cup of water and catch his breath, so that he can be fully refreshed as he makes his statement. I hope that my intervention has been helpful.

[Dr Fox]

There always had to be very good reasons for the coalition; my hon. Friend shows how collegiate we have become in the past few months.

I pay tribute, after a long and complex process, to Lord Stirrup and Sir Bill Jeffrey, the outgoing Chief of the Defence Staff and the permanent secretary at the MOD. I would like to thank them for all their hard work on behalf of the Department and the armed forces over many years.

The fiscal environment that we inherited from the previous Government has required us to make some very difficult and complex decisions in the SDSR. That should not come as a surprise to the Labour party. In his Green Paper, my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), who is in his place today, wrote with characteristic understatement that defence faced

“challenging financial pressures…which will constrain Government resources.”

His Green Paper, a cross-party effort, said:

“We cannot proceed with all the activities and programmes we currently aspire to, while simultaneously supporting our current operations and investing in the new capabilities we need. We will need to make tough decisions”.

We have had 12 years without a fundamental rethink and we are in the midst of the biggest financial crisis in a generation, with an inherited defence budget that is in overdraft to the tune of some £38 billion and is tied up by a byzantine system of contractual obligations. There was a record in-year increase of £3.3 billion in the equipment programme during Labour’s last year in government alone. All that has come at a time when our armed forces are fighting at a high tempo in Afghanistan. It has fallen to this Government to take the tough decisions required without undermining serious capabilities, the military covenant or the UK industrial capacity.

If we had a clean sheet of paper without the financial pressures that face all Government Departments as a result of the inherited fiscal deficit, and if we were unencumbered by existing contractual obligations and in different operational circumstances, the results would undoubtedly have been different. Nevertheless, although difficult, the decisions that we have made are coherent and consistent, and will provide us with the capabilities that we require for the future.

We now know that, as the former Chief of the Defence Staff has said, Labour Ministers were offered advice on which cuts to make to get the defence budget back into balance, but that advice was rejected owing to the lack of political will in the run-up to the general election. Only the coalition Government have had the political courage to do what was financially and militarily right with defence. We have had to implement the cuts that Labour Ministers lacked the courage to make.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Fox]

We have so many ongoing discussions, not just inside the Government but, as the hon. Lady knows, with our NATO partners and with our American partners. It is essential that when we set these dates we are also cognisant of what the Afghan Government want. The Afghan Government have for some time—as the previous Government fully understood—had the ambition to manage entirely their own security apparatus by the end of 2014. The approach that has been taken by this Government and more widely in NATO has been to ask how we tie our timetables in with the ambitions of the Afghans. It is perfectly reasonable. As the NATO summit in a couple of weeks’ time will show, it is increasingly the view of NATO that we should transition out of a combat role and allow the Afghan Government to have control by the end of 2014, but that we should maintain the resources required to give them support. For example, whether the Afghans will be able to develop any sort of meaningful air wing according to their timetable of 2014 is something that we must consider.

[Bob Russell]

May I take the Secretary of State back to his comments on last week’s statement by the Foreign Secretary? So far, his speech has concentrated, quite rightly, on the military, but may I press him on the importance of joined-up government across Departments here so that in Afghanistan the political and economic sides—the other two sides of the triangle—get equal weight? Does joined-up thinking happen in Government here?

[Dr Fox]

It is increasingly happening, not only here but on the ground. To be fair, I must say that it is increasingly happening within NATO. The planning to co-ordinate military activity with the civilian reconstruction element is increasingly successful. There remains a gap which is what people talk about as “hot” construction, “hot” intervention or “hot” reconstruction, however we want to define it, which is at the initial period when we have military success, how do we begin the reconstruction process early enough and maximise the benefits from our own actions there? There are many people who would look at the example of Afghanistan in recent years and say that between 2003 and 2006 we perhaps did not ensure that we had in the optimal way joined the different elements that my hon. Friend mentions. However, we are seeing regular improvements in that regard, both nationally and internationally.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Fox]

In the interests of brevity, I will say that I knew it was going to be bad, and it was much worse.

[Bob Russell]

Will the rationalisation of the MOD estate include such things as the scandal in 1995 of the sale of the married housing stock to Annington Homes, and the ongoing revenue rip-off that Annington Homes is enjoying at the expense of the public purse?

[Dr Fox]

There is no doubt that we need to deal with armed forces accommodation. We will want to do so as quickly as possible and in a way that produces the best and quickest improvement, at the best deal for the taxpayer. We will learn all the lessons from the previous Government, and even from times before them.

The three further reviews that I mentioned are the six-month study of the future role and structure of reserve forces; a review of force generation and sustainability by the service chiefs and the defence reform unit; and the remodelling of the MOD itself, which is overseen by Lord Levene’s defence reform unit. Let me be very clear: I entirely agree with Lord Levene’s view about the staff in the MOD, who are among the most able people I have worked with. I am sure that former Ministers would concur. However, I wish to be equally clear that the Department must be restructured to serve the interests of the new national security posture, and smaller armed forces will require a smaller system of civilian support.

I am acutely aware that behind the bare numbers of the reductions that we plan are loyal people, with livelihoods and families, who face an uncertain future through no fault of their own. We will do everything we can to manage the process sensitively and with care and support, but manage it we must if we are to meet our vision of the future force structure. The Government are determined to reinvigorate and respect an enduring military covenant. We cannot shield the armed forces from the consequences of the economic circumstances that we face, but we will make progress wherever we can. I look forward to receiving soon the report of the independent armed forces covenant taskforce that we set up earlier this year.

The second period, from 2015 to 2020, will be about regrowing capability and achieving our overall vision. That will include the reintroduction of a carrier strike capability, with the joint strike fighter carrier variant aircraft manned by a joint Royal Navy and RAF force, and an escort fleet including the Type 45 destroyer and, soon after 2020, the Type 26 global combat ship, which used to be called the future surface combatant—the names keep changing. We will also reconfigure the RAF fast jet fleet around the JSF and the Typhoon, and consolidate the multi-role brigade structure in the Army.

One of my goals as part of the SDSR was to reduce the number of types of equipment used to provide the same capability. Achieving that by 2020 will mean less duplication and less expense overall, when we take into account the complex training and support requirements of each piece of kit. That will include reducing the number of types of equipment in the air transport and helicopter fleets, and of destroyers and frigates.

Nevertheless, my very strong belief, which the Prime Minister shares, is that the structure that we have agreed for 2020 will require year-on-year real-terms growth in the defence budget beyond 2015. It would be nice to do more sooner, but as the great hero of the Labour party, Tony Benn, once said, albeit in different circumstances,

“the jam we thought was for tomorrow, we’ve already eaten.”

How well he understood his own party.

There is a hard road ahead, but at the end of the process Britain will have the capabilities that it needs to keep our people safe and live up to its responsibilities to our allies and friends, and our national interests will be more secure.

I turn to some specific issues. The carrier strike capability that we plan will give the UK the ability to project military power over land as well as sea, from anywhere in the world, without reliance on land bases in other countries. Britain will require the strategic choice and flexibility in force projection that carrier strike offers. I also believe that that capability should be as interoperable as possible with the allies with whom we are most likely to work in future. The inherited design of the carriers would not have achieved that.

The House and the country must understand that any decisions regarding the carriers must be taken in the context of their extended service life of 50 years. The final captain of a Queen Elizabeth carrier has not even been born yet. When they go out of service, I will be 109 years old and the shadow Defence Secretary a sprightly 103. We are taking decisions now on what will be best for us as a country in the middle of the century. That is why we have taken three decisions. First, we have decided to take a capability gap in carrier strike, because we assess that the risk of not having access to basing and overflight for our fast jet force in the next decade is low. However, the same cannot be said looking further ahead.

Secondly, we have decided to install catapult and arrester gear, which will allow greater interoperability, particularly with US and French carriers and jets, and maximise the through-life utility of our carrier strike capability. Thirdly, we have decided to acquire the carrier variant of the joint strike fighter. Adding the “cats and traps” will allow us to use the carrier variant of the JSF, which has a bigger payload and a longer range than the STOVL variant planned by the previous Government. Overall, the carrier variant will be significantly cheaper, reducing the through-life cost compared with the STOVL version.

Contrary to popular belief, there will not be a new Queen Elizabeth class carrier in service without the planes to go on it, apart from in the period required by law for us to have the carrier properly crewed up and ready to accept the planes. The idea I have come across in some parts of the media—that we can get brand-new carriers and the brand-new planes to fly off them almost on the same day—simply defies the complexity of the operation involved.

When the carrier enters service towards the end of the decade, the JSF will be ready to embark on it. Yes, there will be a delay to the programme as a consequence of the decisions I have mentioned, but unlike the previous Government’s delay to the carrier programme in 2008, which added £1.6 billion to the overall cost—more than the whole Foreign and Commonwealth Office budget next year—and gave us nothing in return, our delay will give us a carrier that is best configured for the next 50 years.

UK Armed Forces in Afghanistan

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Thursday 9th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to, I shall come to withdrawal and the long-term implications in due course.

Our military resilience is, in part, dependent on the support of our people—it always has been. The British public need to know that there are clear reasons for being in Afghanistan and that we have clear aims and the right strategy. They need to know why we cannot bring our troops home immediately, as many people want, what we are achieving, and what success will look like. Let me tackle those points first.

Saturday marks the ninth anniversary of the al-Qaeda atrocities that killed almost 3,000 innocent people, including 66 British citizens, in Manhattan. The horror of watching those scenes replayed on television does not diminish with time. The carnage did not discriminate nationality, colour or creed. It changed the lives of thousands of families and it changed the way political leaders saw the world. If we want our people, civilian and military, to be willing to pay the price of success, they need to understand the cost of failure—9/11 is what failure looks like. It is what trans-national terrorism looks like, and what it will look like again if we fail to confront it.

Our clear aim in Afghanistan is to prevent Afghan territory from again being used by al-Qaeda as a base from which to plan attacks on the United Kingdom and our allies. Our engagement in Afghanistan is first and foremost about national security. It is not the only place where we are confronting violent extremists, but it is crucial in that battle. The presence of ISAF—the international security assistance force—prevents al-Qaeda and the Taliban regime from returning while we train Afghan security forces to take over the task for themselves.

We do not seek a perfect Afghanistan, but one able to maintain its own security and prevent the return of al-Qaeda. That aim also requires working with Pakistan to enhance the Pakistanis’ ability to tackle the threat from their side of the border. In Afghanistan, success means, first, continuing to reverse the momentum of the Taliban-led insurgency. Our second aim is to contain and reduce the threat from the insurgency to a level that allows the Afghan Government to manage it themselves. Our third aim is creating a system of national security and governance that is stable and capable enough for the Afghan Government to provide internal security on an enduring basis. That is why we are supporting more effective Afghan governance at every level, and building up the capability of the Afghan national security forces as rapidly as is feasible.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Fox]

I shall give way to both Members, but given the nature of the debate I then intend to make progress.

[Bob Russell]

This debate is taking place as troops from 16 Air Assault Brigade, Colchester garrison, prepare for their fourth deployment to Afghanistan. Does the Secretary of State agree that this is not just a military operation? Although we clearly support the military operation, there are two other sides of the triangle—politics and economics.

[Dr Fox]

I completely agree that although the military element is absolutely essential it cannot be the only element in our approach to Afghanistan. I shall come to that point a little later.

Afghanistan

Debate between Bob Russell and Liam Fox

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

Although in principle I do not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman, we must be clear what we are dealing with. The Taliban covers a broad range of different groupings—there is no single Taliban commander or a Taliban army with a Taliban uniform—and it is advantageous to find the groups among them who are reconcilable to the process, and to bring them on board to create a critical mass of support. That can only help us in our wider counter-insurgency aims. We should also reflect on the terms we use—not just “the Taliban”, but “the insurgency”—and ask whether there are a number of discrete insurgencies rather than just one, just as there are a number of discrete groups that we tend to call “the Taliban.” If the House accepts that we are dealing with greater complexity than is sometimes described, we might find it easier to understand the complexity of some of the solutions that we and the Afghan Government must find.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

The Afghan national army is now larger than the British Army. The Secretary of State referred to the international coalition of 46 countries in Afghanistan. I pay tribute to Denmark and Estonia, but the simple fact is that none of our major European allies have had troops on the ground in Helmand province. Bearing in mind that soldiers from 16 Air Assault Brigade will this September make their third deployment to Helmand, will he confirm that the new surveillance equipment will include additional unmanned aerial vehicles, because they must be a great way of identifying insurgents and those planting improvised explosive devices?