University Tuition Fees

Bill Grant Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for mentioning Scotland. I will come back to that. The position is also referred to on page 13 of the House of Commons Library briefing; I note that the Scottish Government are currently conducting a review of Scottish funding. That is welcome, because there are questions about how the policies on tuition fees, loans and repayments are applied in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I am pleased to hear that the Scottish Government are carrying out a review. I will return in a moment to what the Library briefing says about that.

As I was saying, I supported the introduction of tuition fees to help raise the cap on the numbers of young people going into further and higher education at college and university, because it was clearly recognised that the ceiling had been there for too long—30% was not right for our 21st-century country—and a change had to be made.

The Library briefing makes the point that each £1,000 cut in tuition fees would cause universities to lose £1 billion in income, or else the taxpayer would have to make up the difference, as the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire said. I do not support the abolition of tuition fees, but neither do I support £9,000 across the board. They should be variable, with the highest fees for the Russell group alone; £3,000 certainly seems too low for those universities. The petition, which is welcome, indicates that this debate is very much still alive.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

There is general agreement that for good-quality university education to be sustainable, it must be paid for. There are many aspects to that, including the public purse and the individual. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that maybe we should consider looking to employers, who are also beneficiaries of graduates and postgraduates in their businesses? Could they be greater players in funding the education system that we need and desire?

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) said in her intervention that all of society benefits when a highly skilled cadre of young people come through the system. They make us more productive, more energetic and more able to compete in the world market. These are difficult questions for the Minister. I am sure that he has all the answers for us, and we look forward to hearing them in due course. Yes, a contribution across the board is entirely appropriate.

The Library briefing has some interesting paragraphs on fees, as I mentioned in response to the intervention by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock). Page 13 says:

“The free fees policy in Scotland has been discussed by many commentators, most noticeably by academic Lucy Blackman Hunter, who has suggested that free fees benefit middle-class students the most. It has also been suggested that the free fees policy is unsustainable and has led to the underfunding of Scottish universities and rising debt among poorer students.”

As I mentioned, the Scottish Government have indicated that they will be holding a review. I certainly wish them every success in that. My son went to Glasgow University, although as a London-born resident he paid full tuition fees.

--- Later in debate ---

[Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)]

It is good to be speaking in a tuition fees debate once again, and I thank the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mike Hill) for kicking off this afternoon.

The Government enjoy using the phrase “make work pay”, but today I will start by saying that we need to make education pay. For many young people who face the choice between crippling student debt or taking a low-paid, unskilled job, only one route is possible. The hon. Gentleman spoke about his working-class background and how university was a struggle for his family. I understand that completely; I, too, come from a working-class background. I was one of five children, and all five of us went to university. That was only possible because we not only did not pay fees, but had generous maintenance grants to support us and our family while we were at university.

This debate is fundamentally about the value we place on education and about our ambitions for the future of our young people and our nation. Will the young people embarking on tertiary education courses contribute economically and societally to our nations, or are we providing them with a service for which they must pay? The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) talked about the free-marketisation of education, and spoke in detail about the experience in Chile. He explained that it took Chile 30 years to understand and appreciate the errors of its ways and change its tuition structure entirely. I really hope it does not take the Minister 30 years to do the same for English students.

The hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley) asked who pays, and his conclusion was that it should be those who benefit. I do not disagree, but I question exactly who benefits. As legislators, we must be clear about that. In a higher education debate on 13 September, the Secretary of State for Education referred to fees as a “burden” on society—a dangerous piece of spin that the Government can ill afford to peddle. The post-Brexit economic success of the UK will rely on a well-educated population with a range of educational experiences and expertise. We already have skills shortages in science, technology, engineering, maths, healthcare, education and digital, so graduates are needed now more than ever to ensure that the UK remains competitive outside the EU. When we consider that EngineeringUK estimates an annual shortfall of 20,000 graduates in engineering alone, we can see that fees for tertiary education are illogical.

The effects of the tuition fees policy are also clearly demonstrated by the abolition of nursing bursaries. The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq), who is no longer in her place, pointed out that the decline in the numbers of those choosing to study nursing comes at the same time as a sharp drop in the number of EU nurses registering to work in the UK. That needs to be a wake-up call to the Government about their damaging policies.

A fundamental principle of the Scottish National party is that education should be based on the ability to learn, never the ability to pay. We have a strong and principled record of opposing increases in tuition fees in England and Wales, and we will continue to reject any legislation that seeks to increase the financial burden on students. Of course, fees are not the only attack on English students: the interest on tuition fees has risen sharply, maintenance grants have been scrapped, and now we hear that some students’ debt on completion of their course has reached an astronomical £50,000, which will leave many young graduates saddled with debt throughout their entire working life. The hon. Member for Reading East (Matt Rodda) spoke about the repayment threshold, and the salaries and costs of living of those who may be just above it. Coupled with increased costs of living, repayment is a huge burden on people’s week-to-week finances.

In Scotland, we take a holistic view of education. I have already referred to “tertiary education”, and I try to refer to it generally, because the distinction between further education colleges and higher education institutions in Scotland is fluid. I have heard many times in this place a spin on UCAS figures suggesting that fewer young people from disadvantaged backgrounds enter higher education in Scotland than in other parts of the UK. That is used as an example of why it would be wrong to abolish fees, but I am sure that the Minister and other hon. Members present know that that is simply not the reality.

One third of degree-level courses in Scotland are in further education, but that is not accounted for in UCAS figures. Audit Scotland reports that it amounts to more than 45,000 Scottish students undertaking higher education in Scotland’s colleges. In Scotland, many students access higher education from further education, but that is not captured by UCAS figures either. For the benefit of hon. Members who have not heard me cite what UCAS has to say on the matter, let me quote it again:

“For people living in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, UCAS covers the overwhelming majority of full-time undergraduate provision…In Scotland there is a substantial section of provision that is not included in UCAS’ figures. This is mostly full-time higher education provided in further education colleges, which represents around one third of young, full-time undergraduate study in Scotland…Accordingly, the statistics on UCAS entry rates and acceptances…reflect only…undergraduate study that uses UCAS.”

Put simply, UCAS figures consider only direct entry from school to university; they take no account of degrees delivered in FE or of young people who enter university from an access or college course.

[Bill Grant]

I cite these figures off the cuff, but I believe that in Scotland we have lost 150,000 further education places, which has reduced accessibility to further education for many. Despite the very good efforts of the Scottish Government, we are still not attracting enough people from lower-income backgrounds to university. Those appear to be the facts; the hon. Lady may wish to agree or disagree with them.

[Carol Monaghan]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has read some figures but not fully understood them. We have college places aplenty in Scotland; we have college places that cannot be filled. There are now 116,000 full-time college places in Scotland, which is more than ever before.

In a Times Higher Education article last year, Professor Danny Dorling of Oxford University wrote:

“In contrast to England, Scotland shows what a real narrowing of inequalities would look like. There, the most dramatic change has been in the proportion of children from the most disadvantaged quintile of areas going to the highest tariff universities. Home student applications continue to rise in Scotland even as they begin to stall in England.”

To talk down the interactions between FE and HE in getting young people from disadvantaged backgrounds into tertiary education does a great disservice to the institutions and the young people served by them.

Our free tuition policy benefits 120,000 undergraduate students every year, saving them from the massive debt seen in other parts of the UK. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) stated that he was probably one of only two Members who were here when tuition fees were first introduced in 1998. In 1998, my son was born. He is now in his second year of university in Scotland and he has no tuition fees. At the moment, he is still debt-free, because like many students in Scotland, particularly in the west of Scotland, he lives at home and he has a job to supplement his life, especially his social life, if that is required. However, he is debt-free and hopefully will remain so.

Even taking into consideration my previous comments about UCAS statistics, the number of students from Scotland’s most deprived areas who are entering university has increased by 19% in just two years. We are clearly ahead of others in supporting such young people to ensure that they remain in education. Alastair Sim from Universities Scotland says that the entry rate for 18-year-olds from the most deprived areas of Scotland is 51% higher than 10 years ago.

Despite the attempts of this Tory Government to use statistics to spin the story, the facts in Scotland are different. In Scotland, we place a value on our young people; from baby boxes to free tuition, we tell them that they are important and we need them. We are told that our free tuition prevents Scottish students from accessing the available places. Again, that would help the Tory spin, but once again I have to disappoint. Since the SNP came to office in 2007, the number of Scottish-domiciled full-time degree entrants has risen by 12%, and since 2013 the total number of funded places available at Scottish universities, including additional places to widen access to students from Scotland’s most deprived areas, has also increased.

There is no doubt that the Scottish Government’s investment in additional places for access students and for those progressing from college has had a positive impact. We are investing £51 million a year to support 7,000 places, including those for access and articulation from FE to HE.

We are reaping the benefits. UCAS statistics for this academic year show that more than 34,500 applicants living in Scotland accepted a place at university this year, which is an increase of 2% and a record number at this stage in the cycle. Contrary to what the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire said, all other UK nations saw a fall in the number of people accepted to university compared with last year.

[Carol Monaghan]

Of course the review is taking place. Despite the positive picture, and it is a positive picture, we do not stop there. We will keep going and keep going, until we can ensure that every young person, regardless of background, can go to university or can see university as something they would like to do.

The Scottish Government are doing other things, too. In Glasgow, they run a project called the advanced higher hub. I have mentioned it before in this place. In Scotland, advanced highers are the highest school qualification. The advanced higher hub is funded by the Scottish Government and supported by Glasgow City Council and Glasgow Caledonian University. It takes young people from disadvantaged schools all over Glasgow and brings them together to do their advanced highers. The idea was that if only one or two pupils were doing advanced highers in a particular school, it was not economically viable to run those courses, whereas bringing pupils from different schools together made it economically viable.

One of the side effects of the project arises from those students having their lessons on a university campus, as they start seeing university as something they can all do. University seems normal; the process is normalised. The number of young people who have attended the hub and who are now going to university is just overwhelming. It is a huge success story. We will continue to do all we can to widen access and ensure that our young people are given the best opportunity to succeed.

I want to say something about Labour’s position. I welcome Labour’s stance on tuition fees and I support any attempts to reduce or abolish those charges, but I struggle to understand Labour’s position. I want to have faith in it and I want to believe the Labour party, but we also see the Labour Government in Wales increasing tuition fees. I appeal to Labour colleagues in this place to follow the SNP, talk to their Labour colleagues in Wales and consider what can be done so that the public can be assured of their intent.

[Bill Grant]

There must be two Scotlands—I am sure there are—because the Scotland that I see in my mind’s eye has an education system that was at one time the envy of the world but that is now struggling, which I very much regret. I understand that in the programme for international student assessment scales, or PISA scales, which are a measure of education, Scotland has slipped back to 27th, behind Lithuania. I know that PISA is not linked to university or higher education. However, Scotland is good, but we need to make some improvement in our education system.

[Carol Monaghan]

I am happy to talk about PISA and Scottish education. It is amazing that throughout the world Scottish education is lauded as a shining example; it is only here that it is not. We come here and we hear about how awful Scottish education is, but Scottish education is ranked extremely highly.

As for the PISA tests, they look at pure knowledge—rote learning. They ask pupils to recall facts. That is not what the Scottish education system is about. There is an element of that, but it is also about problem-solving, employability, communication skills—in fact, it is about everything that employers are looking for that are not captured in any PISA tick-box tests.

Smart Meters Bill (Second sitting)

Bill Grant Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd Sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Western]

Q There is a massive issue here, isn’t there?

Derek Lickorish: Yes, there is.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

Q I am still enthusiastic about the potential for smart meters and there is still will behind it. I am trying to make a comparison and I come back to the 1970s, to the introduction of natural gas. They are two different technologies but a massive task throughout the United Kingdom. We mentioned two dates: 2020 was the desirable date and you wish that to be retained, although there was a fall-back date of 2023. At some time in this journey we are going to have to speed up the process. We are going to have to pull our socks up and get the job done. I have two questions in that regard. Do we have the production capacity for SMETS 2 meters to meet the demand when it is at its peak, and do we have sufficient human resources to install those meters commercially, hopefully to meet the target of 2020, but perhaps more realistically at a date beyond that? How are we for capacity: human resources and production capacity?

Richard Wiles: We manufacture SMETS 1 and SMETS 2 devices. We are prepared to ramp up our production line to make sure that SMETS 1 can run in parallel to ensure that any potential shortfalls in capacity can be overcome by our increased production. We can continue to keep the momentum and supply chain running in that respect. Regarding installers, by the end of SMETS 1, we are probably looking at around 12 million devices. If the current installation rate continues through to July next year, that equates to around 1.3 million smart meters per month that need to be installed.

Whether we need additional installers is something that Trilliant has not supplied services on, other than installation processes, but organisations are geared up to supply the installation requirement for SMETS 1 and SMETS 2 to meet that deadline.

[Bill Grant]

Q So you are confident in the supply chain for meters, but not so confident in the human resources for installation?

Richard Wiles: Looking at the existing number that I have been made aware of, that may need to be increased. There may need to be additional practices and we need to ensure that whoever wants a smart meter gets it installed in time by 2020.

Derek Lickorish: It has been worked out for me—it says so here—that the additional resources to meet 2020 need to increase from where they are today by 283%. They need to be ready now to start running to meet 2020. I do not think that is possible because these need to be highly trained people. This is not a straightforward job for an electrician; it is more complicated than that. Before I come to resources, the current productivity rate of the teams working out there is less than half what was originally thought. You have to take that into consideration; it is not factored into my 283% increase.

As for manufacturing, subject to clarity about the SMETS 1 end date, because the supply chain is already winding down for that now, if clarity could be given on that, it would ensure that that manufacturing stream was kept running.

On manufacturing capacity for SMETS 2, once you have resolved the interoperability, once you have SMDA approval, once you have tested all these devices at scale, with DCC, it must be about 12 months. Anything less would have the potential to lock in problems for the future because of the model we have chosen. It is a difficult one to answer, but if we satisfy that, there is no reason why manufacturing capacity will not be available.

[The Chair]

Thank you. If we can keep the answers brief, we will be able to get in Mr Carden and Mr Morris.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Time is against us, so Mr Grant’s will have to be the last question.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

Q I will take a quick virtual imaginary journey to November 2022 when we have maxed out on the installation of smart meters, everybody is happy and they are working. Notwithstanding the consumer benefits, what would be the benefits to the wider environmental community? What would be the environmental benefits in relation to carbon reduction from the installation of a full roll-out of these meters? Or is there no benefit whatever to the environment?

Dr Sarah Darby: Potentially, this is part of a very big transformation of our energy system. If we are relying heavily on renewable supply, particularly for electricity, we have to be able to match demand with supply in real time very effectively. The smart meters are part of making that possible. That means effectively that they are part of the transition to a renewables-based energy system with very carefully managed demand and supply together. The environmental benefits of that would be very considerable.

[Bill Grant]

Q So there will be a considerable environmental effect.

Dr Sarah Darby: Yes.

[Bill Grant]

Q We are all fond of our environment and the planet, and we need to keep them for generations to come, so that is a stepping stone on a very positive journey.

Dr Sarah Darby: Yes, I would think so.

Dr Richard Fitton: I would add one point. The smart meter is a tool as well and from that tool we can hang things. With it comes this whole idea of being able to attach more efficient things for your home, such as appliances and heating systems. Once it gets in the house, people can then start to do smart things with it. You have got to consider those savings as well as the generic smart meter savings.

[The Chair]

Mr Western: 20 seconds.

Smart Meters Bill (First sitting)

Bill Grant Excerpts

Committee Debate: 1st Sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We are short of time. I am going to take Bill Grant and then we are unlikely to have further time. This will probably be the last question.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

Q I have two brief questions. I sense that, despite the efforts, the public may not be fully aware of the roll-out of smart meters and the advantage available. If that assessment is correct, what more can be done?

Secondly, with the accent on rural areas throughout the UK, I take it that the installers and those who provide the meters are in constant contact with those who provide broadband, wi-fi or the signal to make the system work.

Audrey Gallacher: On the point about consumer awareness, the industry funds an independent communications and marketing campaign—Smart Energy GB—who I think are coming along later today to speak to you. I do not want to steal their thunder. They will give you all sorts of information on what they are doing to ensure that consumers are aware of the smart meter programme and, more importantly, are interested and ready to take one.

My organisation, Energy UK, provides the secretariat, the governance around the performance management framework of that company, so we ensure that we set it sufficiently stretching targets so that it goes out and generates the interest. Over the past year we have done a lot of work with it to try to tighten up those targets to ensure that that messaging is aligned with what we need in terms of customers being ready to accept smart meters.

I think there is probably a role for everybody to play. I would argue that I would like to see more of the Minister promoting the smart meter programme. I think it is movement in this kind of mass roll-out stage, if we can get the Government and the regulator and everybody behind it to really sell the benefits of this. Because smart meters are a great thing for customers and for the future of the energy system.

Your other point was about the system. People coming later today will have much more information about this than I do. The Data Communications Company runs the contracts for the service providers who provide the communication around the smart meter infrastructure, so there are three areas. I think—you can put me right—that those are cellular in the central and south, and a mesh type of communication arrangement in the north of Scotland. There will be challenges getting full penetration there to get the wide area network, which is what the communications hub is called. So there is a lot of work going on to ensure that we do that.

Bill Bullen: I repeat what I said earlier. We are certainly not seeing any problem with engagement of consumers. Consumers are taking up this product. We are getting probably 5,000-plus sets of meters installed every week ourselves. So, we are definitely not seeing any push-back from consumers.

In terms of the technology and some of the difficulties that there will be, mobile phone networks are not 100%, unfortunately. I do again call for a bit of flexibility in terms of the actual technology that supply businesses are allowed to use, because there may just be local spots, whether rural or urban areas, where you simply cannot get a decent enough signal. There will be problems but, at the moment, I really do not think we have enough flexibility in the programme to address every particular case. It is going to be a problem.

[Bill Grant]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair]

We have about 20 seconds. Is there a last quick question? No, okay. In that case, we will now move to our next panel. Thank you to our witnesses for giving us evidence this morning.

Examination of Witnesses

Angus Flett and Rob Salter-Church gave evidence.

Smart Meters Bill

Bill Grant Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Tuesday 24th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

I welcome the Bill’s Second Reading. Installing some 53 million smart meters in some 30 million domestic and small business premises, with an anticipated completion date of 2020, is an ambitious programme and, as the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) said, companies clearly need to up their game and increase the installation rate to achieve the target. On a more positive note, there is an 80% satisfaction rating for the 7 million or so SMETS 1 meters that have been installed, but that rate also needs to be improved.

The harnessing of new and improved technologies will allow energy customers to be made aware in real time of their energy consumption and its cost, which is equally as important. Smart meters will also transform the experience of prepayment customers, which has to be welcomed. Somebody said earlier that prepayment customers could be prioritised to take them out of receiving excessive bills, and if that is possible through the installation process, I would welcome it. Smart meters will benefit both consumers and suppliers by allowing customers to budget better for energy bills, and enabling suppliers to avoid estimated bills and to provide accurate billing without a premises visit.

Switching suppliers should, and I believe will, be made easier, which will benefit the consumer. There are issues, however. Energy suppliers need to harmonise that transition to avoid any confusion with smart metering.

Recent research by British Gas involving some 200,000 customers using SMETS 1 meters—the older technology—has been positive in showing an energy reduction of some 4%, and eight out of 10 users would recommend smart meters. As the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) said, some people are wary of smart meters, and it would be good if we could allay that fear. I hope the public will come with us on this ambitious programme. The roll-out of SMETS 2 meters will benefit consumers, suppliers, the distribution network and the United Kingdom as a whole. I am delighted to support the Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Bill Grant Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

I do understand the great interest in this matter. As the House knows, I am enthusiastic about renewable technologies, but we have an important responsibility to make sure that they proceed at a price that is reasonable for consumers, who pay through their bills. That is being assessed and I will report to the House when that assessment is finished.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

T4. Although wind turbines play an important part in the nation’s energy mix, it is alleged that the quality of life and health of some rural residents is adversely affected by noise emissions. Are the current noise limits and recording methodologies sufficient—I am referring to low-frequency noise and infrasound—or should the methodologies be reviewed?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)]

Interestingly, the overall balance of the existing peer-reviewed studies suggests that low-frequency sound and infrasound produced by wind turbines is not likely to affect human health significantly. I do, however, accept my hon. Friend’s premise that the potential impact on human health of these turbines is a topical issue, so it will attract further study, both in the UK and abroad, and we are monitoring that carefully.