Intelligence and Security Committee: Russia Report

Debate between Bill Esterson and James Brokenshire

Wednesday 22nd July 2020 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

The disinformation point is a very relevant one. Our counter-disinformation unit is led by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, bringing all this action together across Government to highlight and call out work with the social media companies over this important time. It does incredibly important work to guard against disinformation now, as it has done before. It will continue to do that, as well as leaning towards the online harms legislation that I have already spoken of.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Let’s park the lines from Mr Cummings, shall we? The Conservative party takes money from the Russians, No. 10 suppressed the report, and the Prime Minister forgot that his first duty is the security of the British people. So will the Minister go away and tell the Prime Minister to investigate the Kremlin’s role in undermining our democracy?

[James Brokenshire]

I will take no lectures from the Labour party, or indeed the Whips’ question that the hon. Gentleman has asked me. This Government and my party are vigilant on issues of national security, and we will remain so. We will be clear-eyed as to the threat that Russia poses, and where further action needs to be taken, as I have said, we will do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Bill Esterson and James Brokenshire

Monday 17th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in that we need to look beyond the borders of the EU. That is precisely the emphasis that has been given by several countries, including the UK and France. Indeed, Italy is hosting a conference in a few weeks to do precisely that in relation to the horn of Africa. He is right to make that point, but equally the Government are focused on security at Calais, and that is why my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has agreed with the French Government an investment of £12 million in security at that port.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

8. What recent progress the National Crime Agency has made in tackling online child abuse.

Police Officer Reductions

Debate between Bill Esterson and James Brokenshire

Wednesday 12th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Turner, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) on securing the debate, even though I do not agree with a great deal of the assumptions and analysis he has presented this afternoon.

Perhaps we can start on a point of agreement, however, by recognising the work of the police service. As the Minister with responsibility for security during the Olympic and Paralympic games, it has been a privilege for me to work alongside the police. I pay tribute to their incredible work over the 105 days of the policing plan for the events, which ensured that safety and security were provided. We all recognise the job that the police do and the big contribution that they make to keeping our communities safe. In the context of Merseyside police, I also pay tribute to the work of Chief Constable Jon Murphy, which is providing a sense of assurance, and I want to recognise the work that individual police forces and police authorities are doing to respond to the challenge of dealing with budget settlements over the comprehensive spending review.

Turning to the hon. Gentleman’s central argument, the Government have no choice but to deal with the deficit that was caused by the actions of the previous Government, meaning that all public services must constrain their spending. As a service spending £14 billion a year, there is a broad consensus that the police can and must make their fair share of the required savings. The Government are clear that savings need to be made while ensuring that the quality of service that the public receive is maintained and, where possible, improved. This is not about salami-slicing policing resources; it is about transformation and long-term change in the way that services are delivered.

Furthermore, there is a great deal of talk about the reduction in central Government funding for the police, but we must be clear that that is only part of the picture. The police service, nationally, receives around a quarter of its income from the police precept element of council tax. The exact proportion varies from force to force, and I should stress, the level at which it is set is a matter for individual police authorities —or, from November, the police and crime commissioners—to decide.

Nationally, about £2 billion of savings needs to be made by the police service by 2015. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has challenged forces to drive through efficiencies, and it has shown that over half the savings required nationally—some £1.15 billion—could be achieved by forces raising their performance to that of the average of comparator forces.

Action to date in support of and among local forces includes our having extended the public sector pay freeze to police officers and staff, which will save at least £350 million by the end of the spending review period. Savings arising from the implementation of part 1 of Tom Winsor’s “Independent Review of Police Officers’ and Staff Remuneration and Conditions” will support chief officers in keeping posts and maintaining and improving services for the public. The police can, and are, making further savings by adopting an increasingly national approach to buying equipment and services, and forces can also make substantial savings in their IT spending.

On procurement, we are seeing the service operating with increasing commercial intelligence and using its collective buying power to buy more smartly and at a reduced cost. We have supported the service in doing that by mandating the use by all forces of specified framework agreements for purchases in key categories of goods and services, identified through the collaborative police procurement programme.

There is already evidence of the service’s success in delivering even better value from national frameworks by working together to purchase equipment through them. The service can go further in making procurement savings through reducing the volume of spend, as well as through price savings. The Government have consulted on extending the range of mandated categories and are considering the consultation responses. They have also identified the scope for the service to save at least £200 million a year by joining up procurement of non-IT goods and services.

Forces are also making substantial savings in IT. We have seen police spend fall by £73 million last year compared with 2009-10, and we are clear that there are real opportunities for further savings to be made. The new police information communications technology company will play a key role in helping forces make the most of such opportunities. In total, forces are planning to make about 24% of their savings through reducing non-pay costs. As just under 20% of forces’ budgets are spent on non-pay areas, that shows that forces are prioritising finding savings from non-pay budgets.

[Bill Esterson]

The Minister touched on a point that I did not raise, which was about using private companies to run police services. As he will know, that is of great concern to the Police Federation and many others. Perhaps he can help me understand how a private company, where it needs to make a profit, can run services more cheaply to the taxpayer than if the efficiencies were sorted out in-house.

[James Brokenshire]

I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that that has been the experience; a number of private companies, in specific roles and with specific functions, have carried out those services, and many police forces around the country are utilising private companies to deliver some specialist services.

I should apologise for the absence today of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, who is at the police superintendents conference and is therefore unable to respond to the debate. I know that he would want me to send his apologies. He has made the point, as the hon. Member for Sefton Central may know—my right hon. Friend’s comments were reported in this morning’s newspapers—that the private sector can and does have a role in the delivery of certain services. We are clear, however, that the fundamental principle of warranted officers conducting police services is always to be the bedrock of policing. Although the hon. Member for Sefton Central may find it strange to think that private services can deliver, and assist in the delivery of efficient and effective services, we believe that there is a role for the private sector in such a context.

The hon. Gentleman asked about officer numbers. The Government are clear that what matters is how officers are used and deployed. For instance, when the last Government left office, about 25,000 officers and PCSOs were working in non-front-line roles. In some cases, there may be understandable reasons for that, but by and large that is not where the public expect to see them. It is not where their skills, experience and professional judgment are best used and, frankly, it is not where they will deliver best value for money for the taxpayer.

The Select Committee on Home Affairs said in February 2011:

“We accept that there is no simple relationship between numbers of police officers and levels of crime.”

That point was reiterated in the report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, “Policing in austerity: One year on”, published in July 2012. It is borne out by the evidence from the majority of forces, which, despite also experiencing reductions in budgets and officer numbers, are successfully managing also to reduce crime in their areas. I pay tribute to their work and therefore disagree fundamentally with the analysis that the hon. Member for Sefton Central sought to make.

The Government have a clear vision, which focuses on restoring professional discretion and reducing bureaucracy in the police service. We are committed to taking central Government out of local policing and concentrating instead on the national issues on which the Government should focus. To increase local discretion, we have cut police red tape, saving 4.5 million police hours, the equivalent of 2,100 officer posts. Additionally, the Government are replacing bureaucratic accountability with local democratic accountability through directly elected police and crime commissioners. On national issues, we are introducing the new National Crime Agency, which will lead the UK’s fight against serious and organised crime, strengthen policing at the border and ensure that local police are linked up to work nationally and overseas.

What matters is how effective the police are at fighting crime, and the effectiveness of a police force depends not on overall numbers but, ultimately, on how well it deploys its resources. That is why although total officer numbers across England and Wales fell between March 2011 and March 2012 by 3.6%, recorded crime also fell by 4.2%. I believe that that national picture is reflected in Merseyside.

Merseyside has seen its central Government funding reduced by 6.7% in 2012-13. This year, Merseyside is receiving £264 million of Government revenue funding. The local authority also agreed to increase council tax by 3%—it was one of 22 to do so—meaning that the authority is receiving an additional £64 million of funding through precept for 2012-13. Plans show that Merseyside is planning to increase by 2015 the proportion of officers on the front line from 85% to 91%, which is higher than most other forces. The force has also planned to have 76% of its total work force on the front line—again, a higher proportion than most other forces.

Service delivery continues to be protected. In the past year, recorded crime has remained flat in Sefton Central and has fallen in each of the other Merseyside police boroughs. Between March 2011 and March 2012, total recorded crime across Merseyside fell by 3.5%. The force currently retains more than 200 points at which the public can access police services. I also point out that victim satisfaction for Merseyside is, at 88%, greater than the level for England and Wales as a whole. I pay tribute to the work that is conducted in Merseyside.

Although we may disagree on a number of fundamental issues, I trust that the hon. Member for Sefton Central will agree with me that the vast majority of police forces are rising to the challenge posed by the funding and work force reductions made necessary by the budget deficit, which, I say again, was caused by the actions of his Government.