Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Bill Esterson and Brandon Lewis
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a good point about how starter homes can help people to get on to the housing ownership ladder. I would not presume to tell lenders what their position should be, but when we apply the starter home discount of at least 20% to that £200,000 home, which brings it down to £160,000, with a 5% deposit, we give access to home ownership to a whole range of people who have been trapped out of it since Labour’s great recession.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
5. What recent assessment he has made of trends in the level of demand for social care services.
Enterprise Bill [Lords]
Debate between Bill Esterson and Brandon Lewis(8 years, 8 months ago)
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Brandon Lewis
No, I am not going to take an intervention. We need to allow other hon. Members to have their say.
We have listened to the principled opposition to our plans. I have listened to colleagues who have made strong, passionate and clear proposals to us, and we are amending them accordingly with our proposal for an exploratory evaluative phase, which we will lay amendments for in the other place—a draft is available for colleagues to look at now. I therefore call on all Members to support the Government’s amendment and to vote against amendment 1.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Welcome to our deliberations, Madam Deputy Speaker. I should refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
That really was the “Trust me, I’m Honest Brandon” speech: “We’ve got it wrong so far. We promise to do better next time, so I’m begging you to support me, despite making such a mess of things so far.” Honestly, have we ever heard anything quite so absurd?
The Minister asked why we did not vote against the measure in Committee, so I will read him what my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) said then:
“I will cut short my comments and simply say that we are against these proposals—”
that sounds pretty clear to me—
“but we will not vote against them at this stage because we want the opportunity to test the opinion of the whole House on Report.”––[Official Report, Enterprise Public Bill Committee, 25 February 2016; c. 328.]
Today that is exactly what we are doing.
Bill Esterson
Let me answer my hon. Friend. Perhaps the Minister will answer the similar point made by the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). Why does he not go back to the drawing board, start again with a new Bill, and bring it back to us once it has been properly considered? Both Houses should have ample opportunity to consider this issue properly, debate it fully, and get the right conclusions and legislation. He could start again.
Brandon Lewis
Let me help the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. I outlined the measures in the way I did because, if amendment 1 is accepted, the Sunday trading clauses will not apply. We need to support the Government amendments in order to amend the Government amendments in the House of Lords. From a technical point of view, that is why we did it in that way. I want to ensure that we run these pilots for the benefit of local economies.
Bill Esterson
That is complete nonsense. The Minister had long enough when he was on his feet to demonstrate the nonsense of what he is saying. The only way to do this is to start from scratch, and enough hon. Members across the House have made that point. The Minister should listen, particularly to his own Members, who have made that point well.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)
Debate between Bill Esterson and Brandon Lewis(8 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
Does the hon. Gentleman not trust his leaders—does he not trust his councillors?
Bill Esterson
We will come back to that point.
It is naive to believe that the devolution of the powers will not result in a blanket extension of Sunday trading hours across the country because of the domino effect I mentioned. Polling of local authority chief executives has shown that 45% of local authorities are heavily influenced by the action of neighbouring authorities’ policies and procedures. We are therefore likely to see far longer Sunday opening hours in the majority of areas within a short period, because there will be a domino effect across the country as one council follows the other.
We also know from the planning system that large businesses have slick procedures for lobbying local authorities to secure favourable local policies and new developments. That has resulted in the widespread development of out-of-town stores, which have driven footfall away from traditional town centres and harmed high streets. It will no doubt be the same for Sunday trading policies. The Minister often says that he is serious about supporting high streets; I think he is supposed to be the Minister responsible for high streets.
Bill Esterson
No, that is the responsibility of one of the Minister’s colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government.
Bill Esterson
The CLG Ministers might not have consulted the rest of the country, published the impact assessment or told us how much opposition there is to the measure, but we can probably assume that they talk within their team.
Brandon Lewis
I will put the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest. He and the hon. Lady may be referring back to how the previous Labour Government used to work, but in this Conservative Government we do talk together. I used to be the Minister responsible for high streets. The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), is now that Minister. Not only have I consulted him, but he has consulted widely, including members of the Future High Streets Forum, who, like him, are positive about this measure for the future of our high streets.
Bill Esterson
Unfortunately, the Minister’s team has not published the results of that wider consultation, which is one point I have been making. If they are serious about giving local people a choice and this not being the decision of just one local leader, why have they not made provisions for local referendums, publication of local impact assessments or extensions to specific areas in their new clause? The current proposal does not provide a real choice for local people—a point supported by Gary Morris, a director at property consultancy WYG, who told Property Week:
“I believe there will be pressure from the out-of-town retailers and supermarkets to open longer. And that won’t necessarily be because they want to; it’ll be because they feel they need to just compete”—
as with local authorities. He goes on:
“I can envisage a scenario whereby out-of-town operators might look for regional disparities to make a case that they should be allowed to open to compete with centres further away with longer hours”.
We know from polling local authority chief executives that that is true: 52% have indicated that they would use the devolution of Sunday trading powers to support out-of-town retailers and supermarkets, not town centres and high streets. Such a change to Sunday trading can only displace trade and harm high streets. The Minister has chosen to ignore those important facts.
Brandon Lewis
If the hon. Lady looks at Hansard this evening, she will find that I have been responding to a lot of the queries of Opposition Members, specifically hers. Only a few seconds ago I said specifically on the family-friendly test that the Bill will give families more flexibility and opportunity on how they choose to spend their time on a Sunday. It will be a big advantage for families. I am sure that if it were not, we would have had hon. Members from Scotland jumping up to explain how Sunday trading has ruined family life in Scotland, a religious and family-focused country. I love spending time there and I have not heard that. I suspect that we will find that Scotland is a very good place to bring up a family, despite the fact that Scottish communities have freedom on Sunday trading. We want to give the opportunity to enjoy that same freedom to communities in this country.
Bill Esterson
In a similar vein, a number of us have mentioned the Prime Minister’s 20 April promise through his spokeswoman, before the general election, that there were no plans to change the Sunday trading laws in England and Wales. Will the Minister tell us when the Prime Minister changed his mind, or was it only a meaningless pre-election promise intended to get him through the last two weeks of the general election campaign?
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman is choosing to ignore the fact that since then there has been a general election, an entirely new Parliament and a Conservative Government, which is a good thing for our country. In 2015 the Prime Minister made it very clear at the Dispatch Box in this very House during Prime Minister’s Question Time that he felt it was time to review Sunday trading laws on the basis that they are outdated and were passed pre-internet.
Devolving the powers will enable local leaders, who are locally accountable, to decide for themselves what the right approach is to extending Sunday trading hours, reflecting local preferences, shopping habits and local economic conditions. It will provide consumers, businesses and shop workers with greater choice, opportunity and convenience. It will empower local leaders to support bricks and mortar shops in their local high streets and town centres, helping them to compete with the internet retailers that operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week and deliver on Sundays, too.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Seventh sitting)
Debate between Bill Esterson and Brandon Lewis(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Brandon Lewis
Actually, we are enhancing the position for both employers and shop workers. We are improving shop workers’ rights and giving better access to and understanding of those rights; we are putting a bigger duty on employers to notify their staff of their rights; we are increasing the penalty for employers who do not abide by the rules; and, importantly, we are giving wider opportunity and choice to local economies and people who wish to work longer on a Sunday or to spend time with their families either by shopping on a Sunday or before or after they have shopped.
Let me be clear to the Committee more generally: if a shop worker suffers detriment, or is dismissed for exercising, or even just planning to exercise, their opt-out rights, the employer will be breaking the law. It is important that that is on the record so that anyone can see it.
Bill Esterson
How does the Minister envisage the rules being enforced? One concern that has been expressed is that the Government can legislate all they want on these sorts of things, but in the end it comes down to the balance of the relationship and whether anyone is prepared to challenge their employer. When a law has been broken, it comes down to whether anything meaningful—anything with teeth—can be applied. How will it work and how realistic are the proposals?
Brandon Lewis
I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that, if during the lunch break he looks back over what I said just a few moments ago, he will see that we are increasing the penalties on employers who do not abide by the rules. Not only are we increasing the financial penalty and, therefore, the benefit for an employee who is unfairly treated, but we are giving further responsibilities to the employer on the notice period that they need to give.
It is important that people understand what workers’ rights are, which is why we are increasing the number of ways for people to understand them and know how to exercise them. I say it again: a very large number of people in this country want to work longer hours and want the flexibility to be able to work more hours on a Sunday as opposed to other hours in the week.
Some retailers I have spoken to have been clear that in some areas Sunday is the easiest day of the week for them to recruit staff who want to work. It is good for family opportunities, and it is particularly good for women and students who want to work. We want to ensure that we create that opportunity for more local areas so that they have economic growth and create more jobs, and so that there are more opportunities for people to work if they want to, all while retaining the flexibility for both the local area and shop workers to have the choice.
Brandon Lewis
I can see that the hon. Gentleman is very keen to intervene again.
Bill Esterson
Well, it is an incredibly important point. I was talking about the penalties. How likely is it that the rules will be enforced and the penalties used? We are told that there has been an impact assessment, but it has not been published yet, so we are in the dark as to just how effective the remedies are going to be.
Brandon Lewis
I can repeat what I said for the hon. Gentleman very clearly. First, where the employer fails to comply with the notification requirement, the notice period for both opt-outs will reduce automatically: from one month to seven days at large shops, and from three months to one month at small shops. Secondly, we are enabling an employment tribunal to make a minimum award if an employer is found to have failed to notify shop workers of their opt-out rights in the context of a related successful claim. With that, I commend the new clause to the Committee.
Bill Esterson
Finally, we have the long-anticipated debate on Sunday trading. Until the eve of Committee stage, uncertainty reigned as to whether we would be debating it at all—as it was, of course, only the week before that the Secretary of State had announced that Sunday trading would be part of the Bill. From what the Minister just said, it seems that the new clause might be more correctly called the “Harrods clause”, given that Knightsbridge is the only part of the country he could cite where there is support from the high street for the Government’s proposals.
Brandon Lewis
As I am sure the hon. Gentleman will recollect, I explained the matter to him. Think of the impact across the country. Even in a constituency such as mine, where tourism in its high street is looking to compete with out-of-town shops and online, it is a massive opportunity. I gave an example to highlight just how big these numbers are and how many jobs will potentially be created. I hope he understands that.
Bill Esterson
Those are points I will come to. I did not know that Harrods had a shop in the Minister’s constituency or that it contained the Knightsbridge of the east.
The other description might have been the “domino clause”. The Minister talked about local leaders having the opportunity. The Opposition fully support the proper devolution of powers and responsibilities, and the ability to make a difference in the local area. Although he talked about local leaders, he did not talk about the views of the local community, the workers affected or the small independent retailers and the impact the proposals will have on many small shops.
The problem is that, when talking to local authority leaders and chief executives, as some organisations have done, one main reason given for saying they may well end up implementing these provisions is that they feel they have no choice. Their neighbours having allowed Tesco, Asda or out-of-town shopping centres to have extended opening hours on a Sunday, they fear that loss of trade within their own boundaries will force them down the route of using these provisions in their own local authority area.
The Government knew full well that any attempt to reform Sunday trading legislation would spark significant debate and opposition from a wide range of stakeholders. The Prime Minister’s spokeswoman wrote on 20 April last year to the campaign group Keep Sunday Special assuring them that the Conservatives had no plans to relax Sunday trading laws. Indeed, it was not in the Conservative party manifesto. She wrote:
“I can assure you that we have no current plans to relax the Sunday trading laws. We believe that the current system provides a reasonable balance between those who wish to see more opportunity to shop in large stores on a Sunday, and those who would like to see further restrictions.”
There we have it. Presumably, in the Conservative party, the Government and the previous coalition Government, when the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson spoke it was on his behalf and we should take as gospel what she said at the time. The country as a whole should have trusted what we were told on 20 April. The Government knew this would be opposed and were that worried about it that they went so far as to reassure the country before the election that they had no plans to change Sunday trading laws. They knew it would be opposed, cause problems and break the consensus that had stood for 22 years, since the Sunday Trading Act 1994.
The amendments we are considering include a change to the name of the Bill in amendment 77, as the Minister has just said, to include Sunday trading. We have to wonder what is going on when a Bill started in the Lords and went through the entire Lords proceedings without any mention of Sunday trading. Only on Second Reading in this House was Sunday trading mentioned. In fact, it was so late that Members who oppose changes to Sunday trading did not even know the Bill would consider it.
I spoke to a number of Members on the Government Benches on the day of Second Reading and they had no idea that the issue was in the Bill because they were not in the Chamber to hear the Secretary of State mention it in his opening speech. Had they been, they could have made their opposition clear and raised their concerns but there was no such opportunity for Government Members. That is a great shame.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting)
Debate between Bill Esterson and Brandon Lewis(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Bill Esterson
I certainly take the Minister’s assurances on money laundering; perhaps this is something that we will revisit on Report in more detail, but certainly over time we will do so. I agree that it is a far from straightforward matter to resolve.
I will just give another example of the effect of a new regulation when it is brought in and requires an assessment. Of course, that is the new schedule to the Bill on Sunday trading. Sunday trading will have an impact on businesses large and small. Some large businesses want it; some are less keen on it. Many, if not most, small independent retailers particularly benefit from having some kind of competitive advantage one day a week, and they are extremely worried about the negative impact of a change in the regulation of Sunday trading, as are workers who will have to work more on Sundays; as are families, who will be affected; and as are faith groups and others, who see the special nature of Sunday being affected.
It is a good example of some of the much wider impacts of a change in regulation, which go way beyond the immediate financial impact on businesses. Clearly, some larger firms plan to gain by cornering yet more of a share of the retail market by trading longer on Sundays, but I cannot see the argument for the idea that there is more to spend just because it is spent on a different day. All that will happen is that less money will be spent at the smaller independent retailers if the larger ones can benefit. That is therefore a good example of the need to consider the wider consequences and shows that the amendments have particular resonance, given the Minister’s proposals for later in our deliberations.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
The hon. Gentleman is generous in giving way. He has just alluded to the point that I was going to make. He will probably want to discuss that when we reach clause stand part, because we will debate those very points, doubtless at some length, as we have made extra time available for that in Committee. Those items will be tackled, and I will make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that there is more to this than he just outlined.
Bill Esterson
I was hoping for something more from the Minister, but we will not have more time in Committee.
Bill Esterson
We have been given more time on Report, unless the Minister is giving us another day in Committee, and he tables such a proposal when we come back next Monday week. That would be unusual because we have to finish, according to what has been passed in Parliament, two weeks today at five o’clock.