Money Transfer Accounts

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Stephen Doughty

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, and I know you take a great personal interest in these issues. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) on securing this important debate. I also congratulate other Members on the excellent contributions that we have heard so far.

I declare a number of interests. Like many other Members, I have a significant number of constituents from Somaliland, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sudan. Those communities have a long and proud history in my constituency, and they all remit funds to those locations. I also declare an interest as the secretary of the all-party group on Somaliland and Somalia.

Some weeks ago, these issues were brought starkly to my attention by a number of the money transfer organisations involved in remitting to Somaliland and Somalia. A month ago, we had urgent discussions with the new ambassador to Mogadishu and with senior Foreign Office officials, so people have been aware of this challenge for some time, and I will return to that at the end of my remarks.

I want to underline how important remittances are and how crucial it is that we find a solution and get things right. Members have spoken of the value of remittances to individual families, who are often in difficult circumstances. Oxfam provided a helpful briefing, which said:

“in most cases, money received is used to cover basic household expenses including food, school fees and medical costs.”

It notes that, in a recent survey,

“one third of respondents said that they would not be able to meet these basic needs if remittances were stopped.”

That is in addition to the concerns Oxfam and other humanitarian organisations have about their ability to provide services if money transfer services are stopped.

Many hon. Members have mentioned the security and stability implications, particularly in the case of Somaliland and Somalia. The hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) eloquently noted that the changes could be a step back for the country, which is coming out of conflict and instability. That is certainly not what the UK Government want, particularly after the recent Somalia conference and the many other steps that friends of Somaliland and Somalia have taken to see the two countries progress.

Remittances are also a complement to aid. There are two crucial issues. This is not only about my constituents; it is also very much in the UK national interest to find a solution to this problem. Remittances play a crucial role alongside our aid moneys. In the end, we want to graduate countries out of aid and ensure that they can stand on their own two feet, so pulling the rug out from under a number of them in this way will be particularly problematic.

We have heard many of the figures already, but I want to reflect on a few of them. I have tabled questions to the Treasury, and the answers show that the UK remits upwards of $23 billion a year to third countries. Remittance flows globally are estimated at upwards of $500 billion. Those are huge sums and often dwarf aid flows to countries.

An answer from the Minister of State at DFID said that the Department estimated that Somaliland received upwards of £500 million annually, while 50% of Somalia’s gross national income came from remittances, which ultimately supported 3.8 million people. Those are huge numbers, so this is not a small problem—it is fundamental to the ability of these countries to be successful. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow said, Somaliland and Somalia face particular problems, which need to be addressed. They do not have the services that are available in some other countries, and with 70% of money transfer services potentially affected by the changes, we really have a very large problem.

I do not think that anyone would disagree that we want safe and secure transfer methods for senders and recipients. There are also legitimate concerns about money laundering, terrorist financing and other issues, although only a small amount of remittances are affected by such activities, and the vast majority end up in the destinations where they belong. However, we really could be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. We could increase the security risk and end up with channels for transferring money that are not policed or regulated in the same way as existing channels. Individual constituents could be ripped off, as they are forced to use more expensive or less secure methods of sending remittances —indeed, there is the possibility of theft increasing and money going missing—rather than the reputable organisations that already operate in this field. With 70% of money transfer services potentially at risk from the changes, we have a huge problem.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, I met Foreign Office officials and the new ambassador to Mogadishu some weeks ago. Since then, I have had discussions with the Minister and with other officials. I have also had discussions with Barclays itself. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and I secured a meeting with it the other week, and we had a constructive conversation, notwithstanding the criticisms and concerns that have been raised, a number of which Barclays must answer further questions on. To be fair, however, Barclays was constructive, and it did not just want to shrug its shoulders and turn away from the issue; it wanted to work with the Government and diaspora communities to find solutions.

I was therefore concerned when Barclays told us that it had written to the Treasury two weeks ago. I have the letter here, and it is dated 3 July. Indeed, Barclays has had other correspondence with the Treasury. I very much hope that the Treasury has responded by now. Barclays offered to sit down and have constructive discussions with the Treasury, the Foreign Office, DFID, the Home Office and all the other interested Departments to try to find solutions. This is really one of those cases where the Government have to step in.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

We were indeed at the meeting together. It is a very constructive suggestion that there should be a round table with all the major banks, which can then work with Treasury to resolve the problem. It is unfair to load everything on to just one bank, which happens to be the last in line. The Treasury needs to address this issue very seriously. Mr Bayley, let me also apologise for coming late to the debate, owing to another commitment.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend makes the point perfectly. As I said, there was a great willingness on the part of Barclays to sit down with Departments. I hope the Minister can reassure us by telling us what steps have been taken—perhaps in the past week—so that we can know that these conversations are going on and will involve all the crucial Departments. Obviously, numerous Departments, banks, organisations and Members have an interest in resolving this matter. Barclays had a number of technical solutions, which I was unable to comment on, but I hope that Treasury officials and the Minister might be able to.

I second the comments made by the hon. Member for North West Norfolk regarding the need for the Government to engage in urgent discussions with the United States, where a lot of the regulatory pressures are coming from, so that we can secure answers.

In conclusion, this is a huge problem with serious implications not only for my constituents and their families, but, ultimately, for this country’s national interests in international development financing and our security needs. We urgently need to find a solution because time is pressing and will run out at the end of August; otherwise we will find ourselves in a very difficult situation.

Financial Transaction Tax and Economic and Monetary Union

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Stephen Doughty

Tuesday 18th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

GDP is a measure of productivity, but it is not a measure of wealth, and it is not a measure of growth in the real economy. Derivative volumes have ballooned out of all proportion to the growth of the real economy. Some would say that that says much more about rent extraction by the financial services sector than a real world story of genuine and proportionate insurance.

When the global financial crisis hit in 2008, many banks were weakened precisely by their exposure to derivatives. In fact, Warren Buffett has described them as financial weapons of mass destruction. They have traded those derivatives at ever-increasing speeds. It is the institutions that are heavily involved in high value, high frequency derivative trading that would feel the biggest impact of the FTT, and whose riskier activities the rest of society has a vested interest in reining in. That is precisely the point that my hon. Friend the shadow Minister made. The public want to see these activities curtailed to reasonable levels such that they reflect the genuine risks of economic growth.

It was Avinash Persaud, the former J.P. Morgan and UBS executive, who in the Financial Times recently commented:

“this small tax on churning would limit some of these activities and help to refocus the financial system on to its purpose of the safe financing of real economic activity.”

That is a good thing and we should be open to the idea of exploring it with our colleagues across the water.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making some strong points. Does he recall Lord Turner describing some of the activities to which he is referring as “socially useless capitalism”?

[Barry Gardiner]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The public want politicians to get back to focusing on the real productive economy. They are bewildered, frankly, by the spin-off of derivatives. I was on the floor of the New York stock exchange when it all went belly up on 24 September 2008, and I remember discussing what all the turmoil was about with members of the Senate Banking Committee in Washington a couple of days later. When I returned to the UK, it was clear that people could not understand how things had become so far divorced from reality.

The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), who is unfortunately no longer in her place, made the point that an FTT on derivatives might hit pensioners. I do not think that is a convincing argument. Pension funds are obviously vital to our economy, and they buy derivatives to insure against the risk of poor performance by their portfolio, but those funds are much more likely to hold their derivatives until they reach maturity, which means that they would have to pay only a tiny amount under an FTT because their trades are far fewer—the very opposite of the type of short-term, superfast trading that grew in the run-up to the crisis. Most of the burden of paying the FTT would fall on superfast traders and speculative exchanges, which are very far removed from the real economy.

I want to introduce another note into the debate before sitting down. Our Government, along with many other participants in the United Nations framework convention on climate change, have stated that there will be a green climate fund. That fund will have to raise $100 billion each year by 2020—that is the minimum that the UK and our European negotiating partners think will be necessary to help developing countries increase their own economies, reduce poverty and offset the impact of dangerous climate change. The FTT would be an extraordinarily adept mechanism for raising those funds, which are vital to real growth in our economy. If we look at the UK economy, we will find that only 6% relates to the green economy, yet that 6% provided 30% of our economic growth in 2011. I would like to see the funds from the FTT predicated to use in the green climate fund.