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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)
I am grateful for this opportunity to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. I, too, add my thanks and congratulations to the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) for securing this important debate. We have had a number of discussions on this issue already, and I look forward to continuing to have those discussions with her. I know that this is a very important issue for her and for all of us in this Chamber and beyond, and I welcome this opportunity to respond.
This issue is of concern to Ministers across Government and to hon. Members on both sides of the House, because a healthy, functioning remittance sector is crucial for the thousands of our constituents up and down the country who use such services to send money abroad. If you will allow me, Mr Bayley, I would like to speak for a moment about my gran. My gran—my mother’s mother—has been receiving remittances regularly for more than 50 years, since my parents first arrived in our great country and settled, first, in Rochdale. She continues to receive the benefit of remittances. When I first visited her while I was growing up, one of the things that I noticed was that she lives in a very remote village in Pakistan that has no bank. I think that the nearest bank is at least 10 miles away. She is unbanked. There were only a few remitters, at least to begin with, many years ago, that could get money to my gran. I mention that only to show that, at a very personal level, I do understand this issue and how important it is in Britain and particularly to British individuals such as myself, who are from an ethnic minority background.
The sector plays a crucial role in supporting the economies of all the developing countries that have been mentioned today that receive these funds. We all want to see a healthy remittance sector, but we also want to see a legitimate remittance sector. Our banks and regulators have a real responsibility to ensure that they are not inadvertently facilitating any kind of criminal activity. That could be money laundering, drug trafficking or the financing of terrorism, some of which we have heard about today. All are activities that pose real threats not just to UK citizens, but to global security. Of course, there is a fine balance to be struck between managing those risks and ensuring that essential services are still available to families in the UK. I would like to reassure hon. Members that we are committed to getting the balance right. This afternoon, I will set out some of the steps that this Government are taking towards ensuring a robust and sustainable remittance sector.
We recognise the role of Government in effectively supervising and regulating the money service business sector to help to drive up standards in this area. Last year, we strengthened the Money Laundering Regulations 2007, with a particular view to helping Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, as the relevant regulator, to strengthen its supervision, and HMRC is making every attempt to close down those businesses that are engaging in criminal activity and tarnishing the sector as a whole. Last month, it worked closely with the Metropolitan police and the Serious Organised Crime Agency to target organised criminals operating in this sector. However, in the longer term, proactive solutions must be found to avoid the need for such action in the future. The best way to achieve that is by creating a remittance sector in the UK that is trusted by all stakeholders and with which all banks can feel confident about doing business.
I have spoken with several of the leading high street banks—including, of course, Barclays—during the last few days. Some have expressed important concerns on the structural features of the sector and particularly on the issues surrounding transparency. I can confirm that I am looking urgently into what measures the Government might be able to take, and speaking to all relevant authorities to look at what options are open to us to try to allay as far as possible some of the concerns that those banks have expressed.
Separately, work has already been under way for some time through Project Quaver, led by HMRC and SOCA, on developing a healthy and sustainable sector. That project brings together the Government, law enforcement, regulators and industry to help banks and money service businesses to understand the risks that come from abuse of this sector, and to strengthen their compliance.
However, we recognise that having effective anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing procedures in place is not only essential to preventing, detecting and disrupting illicit finance. They provide the confidence for foreign investment and stable economic growth in many of the developing countries that have been mentioned. Developing effective regimes requires effective co-operation between the public sector and the private sector to understand and mitigate the threat of illicit finance, so under the UK presidency, the G8 has this year committed to launch a public-private sector dialogue on illicit finance, which will be held in Namibia in September of this year. That will not only help to tackle the issue of robust regimes in the traditional financial sectors, but address the opportunities and the risks posed by new payment methods, such as mobile money services. By bringing together private sector experts from around the world and Ministers and officials, the dialogue will be a unique opportunity to leverage expertise and drive reform that meets the specific needs that countries face, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa.
Sajid Javid
I will give way first to the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan).
Kevin Brennan
I am sure that some very good initiatives are being developed, but will the Minister be able, in his remarks this afternoon, to give any direct comfort to the businesses that hon. Members here are concerned may go out of business in the next few weeks?
Sajid Javid
I will, but before I respond fully, I will give way to the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) as well.
Stephen Doughty
I thank the Minister for being very generous about interventions. Again, I am very interested to hear what is going on at international level—dialogues and so on at the G8—but, echoing the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), we want to know what will happen in the next couple of weeks, given what is happening on 12 August. I do not want to betray any confidences, but Barclays was offering a meeting at its headquarters. Will we see a meeting of the key stakeholders—the banks, the non-governmental organisations and the diaspora communities—in the next fortnight?
Sajid Javid
I think that both hon. Gentlemen knew that I was coming to this issue next. I am referring to the immediate effect of Barclays’ decision. I recognise that some of the things that I mentioned a moment ago, although very welcome, are long-term projects. In the short term, the Government are committed to doing everything that they can to minimise the impact on individuals and businesses in the UK of any immediate changes in this market. I understand that businesses in this sector will face challenges. That is why we are committed to working with the banks, trade associations and money service businesses to try to find solutions that do not mean extensive business closures. However, the truth is that we do not know what the full impact of some of the decisions that have been discussed here today will be. We are monitoring the situation and will continue to do so in the course of the next few months.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is being very generous. In terms of immediacy, does he not agree with this point? My constituent George Boateng has contacted me to say that an entire parallel industry—the so-called hawala system—exists now and is totally and utterly unregulated, and we could end up with a situation in which we have a sort of reverse Gresham’s law: we end up losing money transfer that is legitimate and regulated and going into a completely unregulated system. Surely that cannot be anyone’s intention.
Sajid Javid
The hon. Gentleman raises a fair point. He is correct, to the extent that if individuals cannot find a legitimate alternative that can reach the parts of countries they want to reach at a reasonable cost, they may be tempted to use illegitimate means, which makes the issue all the more important. I accept his general point.
We are committed to ensuring that commercial decisions taken by banks do not inhibit individuals in the UK from remitting money to families abroad, but, once again, there may be challenges. Individuals might need to approach firms other than those with which they are used to dealing. There may be increased charges. Remittance flows to some countries may be affected, specifically those with less developed or non-existent banking sectors, such as Somalia, as we heard from the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth. I share his concern.
Rushanara Ali
I was encouraged to hear the Minister’s reference to his personal experience—his family experience —but I am disappointed at the lack of focus in his response on the fact that we need an urgent solution. I appreciated his time before the debate thinking through a constructive way forward. I hope that he will use the last 10 minutes to talk about how he will get his officials, the FCA and interested parties to use their insights to look at how we can solve the problem. He would be commended for making that happen. Across Government —in DFID as well as in the Foreign Office and his Department—and in his party and my party, there are grave concerns, which have been expressed in the debate. I hope he will use the last 10 minutes to focus on action and delivery, because he will be commended for that.
Sajid Javid
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to set that challenge and say that we should focus on action and delivery, and that is what I believe we are doing. I am sure she understands that there is no magic bullet or overnight solution that can be provided by any Government. As we heard today, this is a complex matter. The hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) recognised in his remarks that the banks have legitimate concerns. Other regulatory authorities are involved and hon. Members have mentioned the United States. Whatever the solutions, they may not be perfect and we may not get back to the world as it was before in this space. There will probably be changes to the structure of the industry. I hope she will be reassured, as I make further remarks, that we take the issue seriously.
The hon. Lady mentioned DFID, which I was coming to. I have discussed the recent bank actions with DFID officials and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development. Initial indications do not suggest a significant impact on the economies of developing countries or their humanitarian situation. The Government will however assess the impact of market restructuring on developing countries and work with private sector and aid partners to mitigate any negative repercussions. The Secretary of State confirmed that the provision of UK Government aid will not be affected. My hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), who has great experience in development, talked about the work of DFID. It has said that it will commission an independent research report to understand the impacts of the recent bank actions on development outcomes in recipient countries.
Rushanara Ali
I thank the Minister for being generous. Can he explain what evidence DFID used to come to that conclusion? I have not been given any evidence, nor have my hon. Friends or other hon. Members. DFID should be looking at how to improve this important industry, because we want to end aid dependency. It is scandalous that DFID is being so complacent and commissioning a research project, when businesses will go bust in the next month. Will he press DFID to take urgent action with him? I accept that there are no magic wands, but there have been constructive suggestions in the debate, which I ask him to take forward and lead on. He will be commended for coming up with a solution.
Sajid Javid
I assure the hon. Lady that DFID takes the issue as seriously as other parts of Government and Members here today do. DFID, the FCO and the Treasury are working closely on it, because it affects all three Departments.
Simon Danczuk
If the Minister does not give a clear indication this afternoon that there will be a round-table meeting of which Government are part, everybody will leave with the impression that the Government support big business, but not small businesses.
Sajid Javid
I will come to that point before I finish, but, given the questions asked today, let me say a few words about Barclays.
When I met Antony Jenkins, Barclays chief executive, we discussed its recent decision to end its relationship with a number of money services businesses in the UK and I tried better to understand its perspective. Although we did not discuss decisions taken on individual firms, I was reassured to understand that the recent review of its customers in the sector is being conducted on a case-by-case basis. I was also reassured that it is working with firms to manage the impact of its decision. He confirmed that Barclays will consider on a case-by-case basis extensions to any initial notice period it has given companies, particularly where those companies can show that they are in active discussions with other banks that may take their business.
Sajid Javid
I do not have much time. A number of questions were raised by hon. Members, but I will give way very briefly.
Barry Gardiner
Without wishing to betray any confidence that Barclays relayed at the meeting with me and my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), it is clear that it has decided not to continue to do business with certain remittance companies, and, despite what the Minister has said about the assurances he received from the chief executive, that was made very clear to us in the meeting. The matter is much more urgent that the Minister is acknowledging.
Sajid Javid
I take those points on board. The hon. Gentleman is right to suggest that Barclays has made the decision. It is however showing flexibility over the timing of closing certain accounts, and that flexibility is better than no flexibility.
I shall turn to a few questions raised by hon. Members. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow asked whether I had received representations from the large money transfer companies. I have not received any representations from such companies. She also suggested—if I understood her correctly—that the banks’ behaviour could be anti-competitive. There is no evidence that banks are acting in concert or are distorting competition. They appear to have acted in accordance with their commercial interests and their desire to minimise risk.
The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) asked why larger organisations, such as Western Union, are not affected by the decisions of the banks and whether the banks would benefit from the withdrawal of some services. The short answer to why some larger institutions are not affected is that their internal compliance procedures are in many cases similar to what the banks themselves adopt internally; in many cases, they spend more resources on compliance and transparency issues, which they are clearly in a better position to afford than smaller operators; and in many cases they are regulated differently. All companies are supervised by HMRC, but there is a difference between a company registered with the FCA and one fully authorised with it, and banks take that into account.
The hon. Member for Rochdale and others, including the hon. Member for Nottingham East, asked whether we were having discussions with the US. We work closely with the US Treasury and State Department at all times on all regulatory matters, including money transfer. It is important to point out that since many transfers are ultimately in US dollars, there is a US interest. Lastly, I asked the British Bankers Association for a round-table meeting and it has agreed. We will have one, the Government will of course take part and I look forward to it.
Hugh Bayley (in the Chair)
I thank all hon. Members for co-operating on the time limit.