Fire Services (London)

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Mark Prisk

Friday 2nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Housing (Mr Mark Prisk)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) on securing this important debate and on speaking with a characteristic and heartfelt sense of why this issue is important and of the role of individual fire officers and services. Both he and the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) alluded to the fact that fire and rescue services in London is a devolved matter. I am sure that the Mayor will take great interest in the issues raised in this debate, although I strongly reject the idea that there is a cynical or underhand approach to the way he deals with this issue. I was sorry that the hon. Lady started to turn this into a partisan debate, which it should not be, and we must look at these matters on behalf of all our constituents. Before responding to the specific issues raised, I wish to commend—as did the hon. Member for Brent North—the remarkable courage and bravery of the men and women who serve in the fire service in London and in my area of Hertfordshire. I met some of those people recently.

A number of issues have been raised, and I would like to look at the context of this debate and at the welcome reduction in incidents of fire. I will respond to the point about funding streams and answer the hon. Gentleman’s questions on how we can best secure a more effective and efficient service.

Thankfully, the context of this debate is one in which the number of injuries and fatalities is falling. That is due in part to the efforts of fire and rescue authorities, the impact of the Fire Kills campaign, and changes in modern technology. The past 10 years have seen a fall in the number of accidental fire deaths of 40% nationally. Ten years ago there were 310 accidental fire deaths in the home, but latest statistics show there were 187 fatalities in 2011-12. Numbers of non-fatal casualties in accidental fires in the home are also decreasing. In 2011-12 there were 6,335 non-fatal casualties, compared with 9,278 in 2001-02—a reduction of 30%. Those statistics are reflected in London where the number of accidental fire deaths in homes has fallen by 45% in the past 10 years, and attendance at incidents has reduced by 38%. Clearly, any deaths are to be regretted, but hon. Members across the House will accept that those figures are significantly better, and that they must have a substantial effect on the nature of the fire and rescue services that we need now and in the future. The financial context is that the Government inherited a record deficit from the previous Administration. To date, we have been able to cut that deficit by a quarter. That is an important part of the context of the debate.

Every bit of the public sector needs to play its part, but the Government recognise that fire and rescue is a front-line emergency service. That is why we have sought to give funding protection when we have been able to do so. For example, reductions have been back-loaded to give more time for long-term savings to minimise the impact on the quality and breadth of the service.

In the context of London, it is worth bearing in mind that the reductions applied to the fire and rescue services have been less than those applied to local government as a whole. London fire service has had its formula grant reduced by 3.3% in 2011-12, but the Greater London authority has had a reduction of 4.9%. This year, London fire has had a small increase of 0.2% compared with a GLA formula grant reduction of 5.9%.

Clearly, operational matters such as the deployment of firefighters should and must be determined at local level, and it is for each fire and rescue authority to determine the operational activity of its fire and rescue service. It does so through an integrated risk management plan, and it must do so in consultation with the local community.

The hon. Gentleman specifically raised the question of fire stations. I am very much aware that there is speculation about fire station closures. The Fire Brigades Union has, I believe, named 17 stations that it believes are earmarked for closure. As an experienced parliamentarian, the hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot comment directly on speculation, and that fire station closures are rightly a matter for the Mayor of London, but I can advise hon. Members that any significant changes to the integrated risk management plan, such as closures, are subject to public consultation. That means that people will have the opportunity to make their voices heard.

[Barry Gardiner]

Will the Minister assure me that he will make representations to the Mayor that the computer modelling system that is being used should be independently audited? That would do a great deal to enhance public confidence in the proposals.

[Mr Prisk]

That is a slightly different matter from stations, and I will come to it in a moment.

I was talking about the speculation about the fire station closures. It is worth bearing it in mind that the London Fire Brigade has stated that it plans to build nine new fire stations—Dagenham, Leytonstone, Plaistow, Old Kent road and so on. Eight are being completely rebuilt on the existing sites, but one will be on a new site. It is important to bear it in mind that this is not simply a matter of closures, but a matter of deployment. That is an important local issue, and Ministers should not seek to overrule.

Let me turn to the future, which is an important part of the question. We have looked at how the grant system works, but the hon. Gentleman highlighted the new functions that the 2004 Act brought into play. It is important to bear in mind the balance of the debate. There are other funding streams. Funding for the new dimension capability, which addresses a number of the activities to which he referred, has increased by £9 million in two-year period from 2011 to 2013. That deals with some of the additional functions to which he referred, such as urban search and rescue, and the new operations of high-volume pumps. The Government have always had the stance that, should more be required, we will treat it as a new burden. That is an important point to bear in mind.

Given the time, I want to draw my remarks to a brief conclusion. It is true that funding reductions have been made to London’s fire services, but it is important that we see them in the context of a significant fall in fire deaths and casualties. In other words, demands on fire services are changing. That is why we believe that London’s fire service needs to respond. Although this is a devolved matter for the Mayor and local management, the Government are ready to help the service to manage change—I mentioned funding streams in that context. The very fact that the Government are providing those funding streams, and responding to the changes and challenges that face the brave men and women to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, are testimony to the constructive approach that we intend to take.

Question put and agreed to.

UK Trade and Investment

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Mark Prisk

Thursday 15th March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Barry Gardiner]

I would that every debate I participated in shed as much light on the subject as this one appears to be doing, without my saying a word. My hon. Friend, who chairs the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, speaks with great knowledge on the subject and has pinpointed one of the key problems. It is a problem not simply for UKTI but for government as a whole. Government is keen to measure outputs, but reticent about measuring outcomes. That process transformation is required, as my hon. Friend’s Select Committee has pointed out.

While Germany and France bolster their economies with effective trading bodies, UKTI presents itself to those who use it as slack, unfocused, inefficient and even, in some cases, a deterrent to investors. Consider what Dr Wu Kegang, chief China adviser to the British Chambers of Commerce, told the BBC last year. He said that Chinese investors

“have no idea how to enter the British market. They don’t know how to build business channels inside the UK to promote their innovative brands and products”.

Global economic power is shifting from west to east and UKTI is failing to adjust adequately to the new reality. The UK is falling behind in investment in BRIC countries; inward foreign direct investment is dropping; and our global share of trade has slumped. Recently, the news has been dominated by the difficulties that British companies are facing in securing contracts over their foreign competitors. Just last month, BAE lost out to the French company, Dassault Aviation, for a contract with the Indian air force worth £7 billion to the UK economy. We cannot afford to lose, and we should not be losing, such a contract.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)]

I am concerned and want to ensure that we get the facts correct. The preferred bidder has been identified. We have not given up the fight. There is a lot more to do. We need to get that clear. I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I want to make sure that it is known that we are not yet out of this fight.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am delighted that I was able to provoke the Minister’s intervention, because that is exactly the fighting talk that I wanted to hear. The hon. Member for South Thanet started by talking about your both being on the beaches, Mr Amess, and clearly the Minister is still fighting on them, so that is good.

This is a time when the UK should be taking every advantage afforded it to it. The difficulties created by recession and the crisis in the eurozone are considerable. That is why we need to expand our horizons, seeking new and innovative ways to attract investment and finding opportunities abroad. UKTI and British industry, generally, possess some remarkable advantages, many of which have been mentioned by the hon. Lady in her opening remarks. We enjoy significant cultural, historic and economic ties with many countries currently experiencing economic growth. London is the world’s financial capital, and we have a long and proud history of manufacturing.

With the right attitude, focus and know-how, UKTI can provide a firm footing for Britain to re-establish economic growth. As it stands, however, it is failing. The UK has lost market share in trade and investment. According to the Office for National Statistics, foreign companies invested £32 billion in the UK in 2010—a decrease of £16 billion from 2009. More significantly, because some people may challenge that on the basis of the recession, that was the lowest value since 2004. In 2010, outward foreign direct investment by UK companies decreased to £23 billion—the lowest FDI outflow in 16 years.

One might claim that recent events in the eurozone and the United States have impacted on such figures, but the statistics for the so-called BRICs are just as unimpressive. The United States remains the biggest recipient of outward UK investment. India, whose economic growth has topped 7% almost annually for the past 10 years, is down in 18th place, while China, the world’s largest economy, is 24th. Between now and 2030, GDP in the BRIC countries as a proportion of world GDP will increase by 40%, yet more than 65% of UK trade is done in north America and Europe. Indeed, British involvement with emerging economies has been waning. The UK dropped from seventh to fourth in the list of India’s largest export markets, but went down to 22nd place for imports from number three and now accounts for just 1% of all imports into India. We are the sixth largest manufacturing economy in the world, yet we represent just 1% of India’s imports. If that is not cause for shame and alarm, it should be.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)]

Mr Amess, you are managing to overcome a difficult health condition, and we appreciate that. We are delighted to be under your guidance.

This debate has been informed and cosmopolitan. I take it on the basis of constructive criticism; that is how things should be. There has been an element of entente cordiale, certainly between one or two hon. Members present. It is refreshing to have had people who have been in business and who have been part of chambers. My hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) and I worked on the issue in opposition, and he brings his own business experience to the area. My hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys), whom I congratulate on securing this debate, also has her own expertise in the field, which was notable in her remarks. I will come on to some of them in a second. A number of other colleagues, to whom I will refer as I try to respond to the points raised, have shown both interest in and knowledge about the subject.

It is rather peculiar, as was highlighted by several hon. Members, that there was no debate at all in the previous Parliament. That is to be regretted. While my diary secretary will perhaps not want me to encourage too many such debates on a regular basis on behalf of the trade Minister, it has been demonstrated that this House has an important and positive contribution to make to an important part of our economy.

I am not the Minister responsible for trade, but I want to respond to a number of key points that have been raised, and I will personally ensure that the chief executive of UKTI will pick up on the specific points raised, and I will have a conversation with the noble Lord Green. I know that he takes such matters seriously, and I want to ensure that, while he is unable to be present, he can pick up the flavour and character of the comments, particularly those regarding the involvement of MPs, which several people have talked about. They are absolutely right, and I will address those points under the heading of the national export challenge. My hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) highlighted the need for MPs to engage positively, to be close to the business community in their area, district and chamber, and to be a good conduit. That is an important point. It alludes, in many ways, to the point that I will come on to about the broader role of chambers, which I know is of special interest to my noble Friend—sorry, my hon. Friend—the Member for The Cotswolds. [Laughter.] It has been a long afternoon. I anticipate such matters. Perhaps I should say “senator” in due course.

The Government have made it clear ever since the election that we have to rebalance the economy. Members have rightly pointed out that we cannot have an effective trade and investment organisation if we do not have the right balance in the economy. We have seen an improvement—20% year on year now—in car production in previous months, which demonstrates that if we get the overall investment and balance of the economy right, it will start to feed through into good trade figures. That is an important aspect. If we are to have sustainable growth, we need to rebalance the economy; it needs to be broader and more resilient. That will draw through on international trade and investment.

As Members have rightly said, we are a nation with a proud heritage of looking outwards to different markets and opportunities. It is vital that we rebuild our export capability and ensure that by improving the business environment here at home, whether through reforming the tax system, getting a skilled work force in, strengthening the role of innovation or cutting red tape, we not only enable our businesses to export but make Britain a far more attractive location for those who are looking for a place to invest. It is a virtuous circle in that regard, and an important one that we need to reflect on.

Hon. Members are right to say that there are good parts in the current situation and there are challenges. Companies in this country have to win new business—I will come on to markets in a moment—and to ensure that we get more businesses engaged in that process. It is worrying how small, compared with the German Mittelstand and other countries, is the proportion of small businesses that engage in export markets. As a number of hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds, said, we need to start to change the culture. It is not just about going to the traditional markets that we have always gone to in the past 10 or 20 years. We have to go to the fast-growing markets, not just in the east but in the south of the global economy—I can say that from our point on the globe. We have tended to overlook Africa. The Chinese have not been so short-sighted; they have always had a canny process about it. It is therefore important that we think beyond traditional trading partners.

In a sense, that returns me to the point about the use of the diaspora in this country, which was excellently made by the hon. Member for Brent North and my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois). Those communities are here, and it is right to raise the question about how Whitehall, not just UKTI, engages those communities to strengthen our cultural and economic ties abroad, so that we make the best use of all the talent in our country. There is a big issue regarding what Whitehall does and how that works. Certainly, to someone who is a relative newcomer to Whitehall, that is important.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he is taking on board and synthesising the constructive criticisms that have been made.

Does the Minister agree that in taking groups of people out from this country, it is important that we take a complete supply chain to the prospective client country? Instead of simply taking out individual companies, we should look to put together supply chains that can meet the infrastructural, other developmental and business needs of that country, and show that within the UK, we can manage an entire supply chain for it.

[Mr Prisk]

Absolutely. One of the key elements of the Automotive Council road map we developed is demonstrating the depth, but also the gaps, in the supply chain, and our ability to recruit substantial prime investment. We are all familiar with the good news across the automotive sector. Part of the issue is then about how to strengthen tier 2, tier 3 and so on. That is why, when I go to the Paris motor show or the Berlin air show—as jolly and entertaining as it may sound to those who do not go, it is a very carefully worked programme—I talk to the key tier 2s and tier 3s, making it clear to them that not only do we have good indigenous businesses but we have growing markets for the components they generate, in which they may wish to invest. That supply chain thinking is very important.