Climate Change Act

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Tuesday 10th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Gregory Barker]

I am afraid that I do not have a budget for that sort of research.

I do not accept the premise that my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth put forward that somehow there are the Conservatives and then there are greens. He makes a political point, but I say something quite different:

“It’s we Conservatives who are not merely friends of the Earth—we are its guardians and trustees for generations to come. The core of Tory philosophy and for the case for protecting the environment are the same.”

Those are not my words, but the words of Margaret Thatcher at the 1989 Conservative party conference. She went on to say:

“No generation has a freehold on this earth. All we have is a life tenancy—with a full repairing lease.”

We have seen an unprecedented increase in the pace of change over the past 100 years: unprecedented growth in population and the spread of industry; dramatically increased use of oil, gas and coal; and the continued cutting down of forests. Those factors have created new and daunting problems, and hon. Members know what they are: acid rain and the greenhouse effect. In 1989, Margaret Thatcher used a huge slice of her party conference speech to talk about threats to the environment and the specific challenge of climate change, which she took very seriously. She went to the UN, where she was the first world leader to call for concerted international action on global warming. Asserting that that is at odds with being a Conservative is profoundly wrong.

I do not rely on hon. Members for my science. I am not a scientist. I do not profess to understand all the science, let alone to be a definitive arbiter on climate change, but it is incumbent on politicians, particularly Ministers, to take advice from the most respectable and reputable scientific institutions and academies. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth did himself no service by talking down the Met Office. It is not perfect; none of us are and nor is any human institution, but it is an excellent institution, with an excellent global reputation in its field.

Climate change is not a British conspiracy theory of climate science. Hon. Members should look to the American Association for the Advancement of Science; the World Meteorological Organisation; our own Met Office; the European Science Foundation; the American Physical Society; the Polish Academy of Sciences; the World Health Organisation; the national science academies of the G8 plus 5; our own Royal Society; the American Geophysical Union; and of course the IPCC. It is not true to assert that there is unanimity among scientists—there never will be, because science constantly evolves—but the great weight of scientific opinion, and certainly the expert opinion on which Ministers should draw when framing public policy, is clear on where the balance of risks lie. Of course, there is a risk that we have got it wrong, but the prudent action based on the greater risk is to take steps to avert dangerous man-made climate change.

[Barry Gardiner]

I agree with the point the Minister makes. Would he care to reinforce it by pointing out that the IPCC does not simply represent a consensus of scientists, but talks about degrees of probability, levels of confidence and the percentage of risk? It does not try to say, “Everybody has agreed”, but varies the stated risk depending on the level of agreement and the certainty of each contributor.

[Gregory Barker]

Well put.

The other key suggestion is that we are acting in isolation. If that were the case, I would have some sympathy for the arguments made. We may have been a leader in climate change legislation, but 32 countries, from China to Ethiopia and Vietnam, now have some sort of climate change framework. Mexico and South Korea have modelled their climate change Acts and legislation on those from Westminster. India’s 12th five-year plan incorporates a range of recommendations from its low-carbon expert group. Indonesia has just passed a ministerial regulation, based on climate science, to expand thermal energy. We may be at the forefront, but we are not totally alone. We must make more progress. The world has a last chance in 2015 to get its act together and come together with effective, concerted international action if we are to have any chance of keeping the rise below 2°.

UN Framework Convention on Climate Change

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Thursday 18th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[Gregory Barker]

There is an important balance to be struck. Of course, we are here to listen to and represent our constituents, but we also have a leadership role. If ever we were reminded of the importance of not bending to public opinion in the short term, but aiming for the right long-term solution, it was this week, with the funeral of Lady Thatcher, who understood that being unpopular in the short term and not listening to the crowd can often not only be the sensible and right thing to do, but pay dividends in the long term.

On the issue of Lady Thatcher, perhaps because of the week of that extraordinary and very moving funeral, it is worth remembering that it was Mrs Thatcher, as she was then—a scientist by training and a Conservative by conviction—who more than any other world leader acted to put climate change on the international agenda. At the Royal Society, of which she was a fellow—one of the very small band of Conservative MP scientists—she said:

“For generations, we have assumed that the efforts of mankind would leave the fundamental equilibrium of the world’s systems and atmosphere stable. But it is possible that with all these enormous changes—population, agricultural, use of fossil fuels—concentrated into such a short period of time, we have unwittingly begun a massive experiment with the system of this planet itself.”

That was said in 1988, which shows extraordinary foresight.

Pursuing that line of inquiry—Lady Thatcher did not just make one speech on climate change, but several important interventions—she went to the United Nations the following year, in 1989, and crystallised her thinking. More than 20 years later, what she said then is relevant to this debate today:

“the problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level.”

Lady Thatcher’s actions led, in large part, to the Rio Earth summit of 1992 and to the UNFCCC process that continues today.

The process continues with all its imperfections. There have been huge setbacks to date, not least at Copenhagen in 2009. Having participated on behalf of the Government in three COPs now and their subsidiary meetings, I am under no illusions about the difficulty of negotiating a global treaty. However, I must tell the Chamber that having returned last week from the Major Economies Forum on Energy and Climate, which meets during the year to consider action in the UNFCCC, I detect movements of the tectonic plates. I am not suggesting that we are back to where we were in 2008, when we were all expecting global cap and trade, but we are seeing significant policy shifts—or at least the consideration of policy shifts—between what is now termed the G2, or the key players, which are China and the USA. That will not come overnight. A lot more is still to be delivered, but we are seeing the signs of a recognition that they have to deal with the problem. It cannot be ducked.

Part of the reason why we are seeing politicians show, at national leadership level, a willingness to return to the subject from which President Obama and the Chinese leadership were severely scorched—from the experience of Copenhagen in 2009—is that they are driven not only by the science, but by the economic reality of the imperative of diversifying energy sources away from fossil fuels and the recognition that the low-carbon goods and services sector globally is now worth more than $3 trillion, and is growing.

As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) pointed out, here in the UK, that is a sizable factor in our growth, not only in terms of the narrow subsection of wind or subsidised renewable energy, as the low-carbon sector runs much more broadly than that and includes energy efficiency and a range of innovation of products and services. That is why, this year, in recommitting the coalition to being the greenest Government ever, our Prime Minister said that not only are we in a global race, but the countries and economies that will win the global race are those that are most efficient, and the most efficient will be those that drive after energy efficiency and renewable energy.

The Government’s clear ambition is to be a leader, not because we are on a moral mission at the expense of our national prospects, but because we recognise that it is a massive economic opportunity. That is why we think that we can seek not to disadvantage industry, but to obtain a first-mover advantage. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden is out of step with the CBI and with a whole range of smaller businesses, which make that argument strongly to the Government.

[Barry Gardiner]

I wholeheartedly agree with the point that the Minister is making. Is he aware of research now being conducted that seems to suggest that countries that have legislated on climate are attracting most of the international investment in this area?

[Gregory Barker]

There is certainly a strong correlation between regulatory certainty and investor certainty, and lower cost of capital and the flowing of funds into those high-growth sectors. However, another canard that I have to shoot down is the idea that we live in an era of cheap fossil fuels and expensive renewables. Certainly, in the developing world, that is not true. I simply draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden to the fact that, between 2011 and 2014, India will spend $14.267 billion subsidising kerosene, LPG and natural gas. That is one of the largest elements in its national budget; it is largely responsible for the massive calls for structural reform in India, and it is seen as a brake on growth, because the country is subsidising not renewables, but fossil fuels. It is simply wrong to argue anything other, but nor is it an either/or choice.

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[Gregory Barker]

Let me explain it one more time. Fossil fuels have been around for centuries. They have had plenty of time to develop, as I think my right hon. Friend will agree. I think that he may have worked, as I have, in the oil and gas industry before coming into politics. The fact is that continuing to supply oil and gas, LPG, petroleum and kerosene at scale to the Indian population requires a structural subsidy. We are not proposing a structural subsidy for renewables; subsidy is justifiable only in any circumstance if there is a chance of getting to a non-subsidised point. We should not subsidise any technology, whether renewable or fossil fuel, if all we are doing is pouring good money after bad. Subsidy for renewables can only be a short-term or at best a medium-term strategy.

[Barry Gardiner]

Perhaps a common point of agreement between the Minister, the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) and myself is that any subsidy should be in place only because of a market failure. It is almost impossible to justify a subsidy on that basis to fossil fuels, which have had more than enough time to establish themselves, whereas there is a failure in the renewables market. We need to get renewables to the point where they become a full-scale technology and are able to operate at only marginal cost. I presume that the Minister, the right hon. Gentleman and I would all agree that, at that point, subsidies should be withdrawn from them also.

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman makes that point far better than I did. I am not in favour of subsidies. They are a short-term means to an end, and they certainly should not be in place if there is no prospect of getting rid of them in the longer term. I have tried hon. Members too much with my tirade on that.

Let me turn to the COP negotiations, particularly the UK Government’s position and our priorities in respect of getting a global deal. Before I do so, I remind the House what we agreed in Doha. The 17th COP in Durban in 2011 was another step in the development of the UNFCCC, as was the Cancun conference the year before, but it was also a significant turning point. At that point, all the countries committed to agree a new global deal by 2015 and increase efforts to reduce emissions. Last year’s conference in Doha was the next step to make progress on both those issues.

The annual conferences should be seen not as major breakthrough points, but as steps forward. Even the annual conference in 2015, where we hope to agree the new global deal, will also include ongoing implementation decisions and perhaps further steps in the period to 2020 on how the new global deal will be implemented in detail. In that regard, our objectives at the Doha conference last year were largely achieved. We agreed a high-level work plan to negotiate the new agreement by 2015, and we rationalised the negotiation process to give space to deliver the work plan and take forward work to increase the emissions reduction effort in the meantime. Hon. Members might think that that sounds like process. It is. To negotiate a new global deal with 194 countries in three years, the process must be right. It is a challenge, but it is what we are doing.

We also made progress in further building and implementing the key elements of the UNFCCC regime, including on climate finance. I must say to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree that, far from trailing, the UK has a strong reputation on climate change, and our international reputation as a leader is rising, particularly in relation to private sector finance and investment, adaptation, technology and the rules set to measure, report and verify countries’ emissions. Getting the process right and continually building elements are vital to tackling a global problem of the scale of climate change, which is why each annual conference is a step forward.

Energy Generation

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Wednesday 17th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[Barry Gardiner]

I am not a gambling man, but I understand the position of seeking to look at climate change policy as a balance of risks, and the hon. Lady is absolutely right to make that point. In truth, whatever the UK does will not make a global difference to whether we reach 2°, as I am sure she would acknowledge. The aspiration required of the UK and the global leadership that it possesses, which the hon. Member for St Ives mentioned, mean that we have to drive this if we are to play our part in achieving the global reduction. I understand the percentage figures she gave, but it is perhaps illegitimate to conclude that if we hit the 2030 target we will have only a 36% chance of achieving the 2° target. The UK cannot achieve that on its own; it demands a similar effort across the globe.

Part of the problem is that, in considering electricity market reform, the Government have been like a phlebotomist looking at the body politic. They have been obsessed with the energy flow around the system, as a phlebotomist is obsessed with the blood flow around the body, but they have failed to consider the health of the whole organism. That makes for a very poor doctor; we would not want a GP who was simply a phlebotomist.

The Government’s approach has not taken enough cognisance of how the energy sector fits in with powering our economy as a whole. A good example is the ramping down of funds available for carbon capture and storage. Coal and CCS will be vital for us. There will be significant jobs, and if we invest in and develop CCS, it will become a major part of our exports in skills and technology around the world, from which we can benefit. It is part of our wider economy, and the same is true of the renewables industry the more we invest in it and adopt the position, as the hon. Gentleman said, of being the global leader.

I am afraid that we have already lost that position, because other countries have invested far more, including what we are prepared to do in CCS. Unless we invest, we will not develop the export capacity that we need to drive our economy as a whole. We cannot simply be what Gary Smith of the GMB often refers to as the Meccano men of Europe, who simply fit together a product made elsewhere. We must have supply chains in the UK, create the jobs and invest in companies here.

[Gregory Barker]

I am sorry to intervene, but I will be pressed for time when I am winding up. The hon. Gentleman has forgotten that the Chancellor announced in the Budget the two preferred bidders for the detailed planning and design stage of our CCS competition, including the CCS project in Peterhead that was canned under the Labour Government—two projects, real progress.

[Barry Gardiner]

I do not dispute what the Minister says about the two projects that are on line, but I do not think that he will dispute what I have said about the reduction in funds available for CCS.

If we build a competitive supply chain fast enough, we can expect significant investment in the UK almost immediately, which will mean that British companies are well placed to export to a renewable energy market that the International Energy Agency predicts will be worth at least $6.4 trillion by 2035. If we do not lay the foundations for a competitive supply chain, we will see the cost of decarbonisation rise, along with our trade deficit, as we hand over the growth benefits from public investment to countries that have already taken steps to remove the policy risk from low-carbon infrastructure investment. Businesses are calling for demand security beyond 2020, which the Energy Bill could provide at no cost.

The Committee on Climate Change is the body trusted by the industry to set the right target. The Minister will know only too well the letter written by the newly appointed chair of the CCC to the Secretary of State on 25 February. He described how the Government’s plans entail a

“high degree of uncertainty about sector development beyond 2020. This will adversely impact on supply chain investment decisions and project development, undermining implementation of the Bill and raising costs for consumers.”

He went further, however, and referred to

“the need to resolve uncertainties about the direction of travel for power system development”,

specifically the “dash for gas” and the danger that it presents to low-carbon generation. I trust that the Minister will reconsider the proposals on the decarbonisation target in the Department and that we may yet see some progress.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

Biomass certainly needs to be sustainable as well as affordable, but it is not carbon neutral. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that greenhouse gas savings from biomass are at least 68% less than those for coal. Although it may not be carbon neutral, it is certainly much cleaner so far as carbon is concerned.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

A number of recent papers—the Searchinger paper, the Hudiburg paper and the Schulze paper—have noted the problems of life-cycle biomass. The Minister is right to have taken steps to address that in forest regrowth and the sustainability standards, but he has not yet addressed the impoverishment of soils and how the resulting increase in the use of fertiliser will lead to an increase in emissions. Will he publish the basis on which he amended his Department’s projections on biomass?

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a sensible point. He is right to highlight the impacts not just on the burning of wood or biomass, but on indirect land-use change. The Government are taking this seriously and we are working on it with colleagues at the Department for Transport. In order to be effective, land-use change needs to be dealt with on a pan-European basis. We would welcome support from throughout the House for work with our partners in Europe to put in place robust sustainability criteria.

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[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

This coalition is absolutely committed to driving a transformation in the take-up of community energy, so we are really keen to help community groups such as the ones my hon. Friend mentions. That is why we established LEAF—the local energy assessment fund—with £10 million and the low carbon communities challenge with up to £20 million. I would be delighted to talk to my hon. Friend about how we can help his communities to access that cash.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

T7. What could be more topical than a challenge to the recently announced infallibility of the Minister of State, the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes). Indeed, there has been such a challenge—from Mitsubishi, Vestas, Alstom, Areva, Doosan and Gamesa. The Minister maintains that there should be no decarbonisation target until 2016; they have said that postponing the 2030 target decision until 2016 creates entirely avoidable political risks and slow growth in the low-carbon sector, handicaps the UK supply chain, reduces UK research and development and produces fewer jobs.

Feed-in Tariffs Scheme

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Thursday 24th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

Absolutely. Had we proceeded with Labour’s scheme, at least £61 would have been added to hard-pressed consumers’ bills. Under our proposals, because we are taking advantage of the rapidly falling costs and passing those on to consumers up and down the country, we anticipate that just £9 will be added to consumers’ bills.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Feed-in tariffs are a means of ensuring that investors’ risk relating to future prices is resolved. The Minister has talked about listening to the industry and about long-term certainty. Will he speak to his fellow Minister of State at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), who is responsible for energy policy, to make it clear that the proposals on feed-in tariffs published earlier this week in the draft Energy Bill do not address any of the other four risks that investors in the industry face when looking at long-term renewables? In particular, investors are not satisfied that they do anything to address construction risks. If they do not, there will be no new build and the lights will go out.

[Gregory Barker]

The lights would have gone out if Labour had still been in office, that is absolutely clear. I am not here to answer questions on electricity market reform and I would be ruled out of order if I did, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that he is absolutely wrong. Our proposals on EMR and the introduction of a feed-in tariff to replace the renewables obligation will bring greater certainty and investment, and will ensure that the lights do not go off under this coalition Government.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Thursday 17th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

I am pleased to say that since I became Minister in the right hon. Lady’s place, the number of complaints about Warm Front has reduced substantially. She will know that there was a massive complaint bag about Warm Front while she was in office. We have not seen that since I entered office. Of course we will continue to run Warm Front though next year. It remains part of a suite of measures to tackle fuel poverty, and we remain committed to doing much more.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

In the interests of transparency, will the Minister share with the House the benchmarks he has set for the uptake of the green deal scheme in the first to third years and what emissions reductions he has set as the benchmarks for the success of the scheme?

[Gregory Barker]

We have to get away from this target mania that existed under Labour and understand that this is not some sort of Stalinist five-year plan. We are unleashing the power of the private sector, and as a result we will be far, far more successful than any of these top-down Whitehall programmes initiated under the previous Government.

Feed-in Tariffs

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Monday 31st October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

Yes, we want much greater integration in the Government’s various policies, certainly the ones that we inherited. We think that before anybody does anything they should improve the energy efficiency of their home. That obviously presents particular problems for people in rural areas, which is why the green deal will include a substantial element of annual subsidy through the energy company obligation, which will particularly help those with solid walls and in off-grid and rural areas.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Given that the installation and registration deadline for the existing tariff is 11 days prior to the close of consultation, will the Minister confirm whether it is a new Government policy to consult on things despite having already fixed a deadline? If, on the other hand, the consultation finds that the deadline is inappropriate and the Government reach that conclusion after listening to the public, what will they do about those who fall into the gap in the meantime?

[Gregory Barker]

This is a difficult issue. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that we are trying to save the budget. If we were to leave this scheme open until next April, as we had originally intended—although we said that we would act if there was an urgent need, and there is—there would be a run on the fund. The cut-off date will be 12 December, but people will not get a reduction in tariffs until April. It is complex. It is driven by the fact that there is a run on the budget, and we are acting responsibly to preserve the budget for lots of other consumers and to ensure that it does not just disappear in the next few months.

Energy Bill [Lords]

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

Yes. I have a great deal of sympathy with that point. We believe strongly that high-pressure sales tactics, which cold callers sometimes use illegally, should be prevented. When I referred previously to cold calling by assessors, that is the kind of activity to which I was referring and is, I think, what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion was thinking of too.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Will the Minister also ensure that when the new measures under the green deal are being touted door to door, there will be no opportunity for the simultaneous selling of energy?

[Gregory Barker]

That is a good point. We certainly do not anticipate that assessors would be able to go door to door, give an assessment and then have people sign up there and then. There will be a cooling-off period. We considered in Committee whether an assessor could also be a representative of a commercial organisation or company. We came to the view that that could be possible, but that there would have to be a clear distinction between the roles they performed. An assessor would have to make their assessment on a uniform format and to the same standard right across the industry, so that it could be taken to other providers of green deal services. We would encourage all consumers to get a competitive quote before committing. If consumers wish to go with the first person who knocks on their door or the first person whom they invite in to make an assessment, it is obviously their right to do so. However, we are building in apparatus to ensure that that is not encouraged.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again; he is being extremely generous. Will he confirm whether he believes it would be possible under the legislation for an assessor, who is there to give impartial and independent advice about one’s energy consumption, also to be a representative of an energy company and to engage in the selling of energy to the consumer? It would be dangerous if the legislation permitted that.

[Gregory Barker]

Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that an assessor would knock on someone’s door, undertake a green deal assessment and, at the same time, encourage them to switch to another tariff? [Interruption.] He is suggesting that they would switch hats and do that. I do not expect that to happen, not least because the assessment must be independent. However, there can be a degree of cross-selling, provided that the independent assessment is truly independent. However, I shall clarify that when we come to the technical detail of the Bill. I understand that what the hon. Gentleman describes is possible, but energy company practice would be covered by the regulations, such as the code of practice. We shall have an opportunity to look at the detail of what they can offer under the code of practice, but I would expect that type of activity to be strongly regulated.

However, it would not be impossible—indeed, it would not necessarily be a bad thing—for people to be able to switch to a better tariff at the same time as they were considering their energy usage. We are encouraging consumers to switch. Far too many families in this country are on the wrong tariff and do not take advantage of the cheaper tariffs that are available, often from their own supplier, particularly by switching to a direct debit. I would therefore not want to rule out the possibility of a consumer taking a green deal assessment and, at the same time, switching to a cheaper, more appropriate tariff. Indeed, that might seem quite sensible, but it will be covered by the code of best practice.

[Barry Gardiner]

Although I agree that it should always be open to people to switch to a cheaper tariff, I am sure that the Minister would agree that energy advisers operate in an independent capacity and therefore engage with the consumer in a capacity of trust. Will he therefore ensure that if any energy adviser offers advice about switching tariffs, they will have to offer independent advice and will not be able to give it as a tied agent? Otherwise, there will be a perverse incentive for the energy companies to use a new doorstep sales technique, which will involve getting through the door as an independent adviser, switching hats—which will not always be obvious to the consumer—and then selling their own product.

[Gregory Barker]

I will need to consider that more carefully, because we accept that assessors can be part of commercial organisations. It is not a requirement of the green deal legislation—we went through this in detail in Committee—that they have to be totally impartial and that someone else should act as a salesman. For example, gas boilers have to be fitted to the high and rigorous standards set out in CORGI guidelines, and that work must be done independently. When we take our cars for a service and MOT, that must be done impartially and to a certain standard; yet at the same time, those doing that work are selling a service. Indeed, there are several examples of where it is quite possible for professional bodies to undertake professional services independently, transparently and to a uniform format, but where at the same time they have opportunities to sell.

Indeed, that is part of the attraction of the green deal. There is a quid pro quo at work: we are using the power of the market to scale-up the deployment of energy efficiency. Although we hope to go for an ambitious and large-scale eco-subsidy to work with the green deal, ultimately we are talking about a private sector proposition. We are creating a new market, but the investment that will drive take-up will come from the private sector, and obviously those making that investment will be attracted by more than just lagging. That is a good thing, because it will drive innovation and drive prices down as it increases competition, opening up energy services from the big six companies to a new array of retailers and, we hope, small and medium-sized enterprises and local groups. Competition will be good, but for competition there must be something for people to compete for. I hope that that reassures the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), but I will perhaps come back a little later to the point that he has raised.

Government amendment 30, which relates to the impartiality of green deal assessors, is a result of a commitment I made in Committee, given that so many Members were seeking reassurance on this point. It clearly sets out our intention to ensure the impartiality of the assessment process, and I urge the hon. Member for Brent North to look at it closely. We believe that it should be possible for assessors to be employed by a green deal provider, allowing for a more holistic service for consumers, but that should not interfere with the impartiality of the assessment process. The code of practice for assessors will therefore include robust requirements for green deal assessors to act in an impartial manner and declare to consumers any links that they have with green deal providers—or, indeed, energy companies. That is vital in order to retain consumer confidence in the information that they are being provided with.

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[Barry Gardiner]

The Office of Fair Trading will regulate the contracts. Has the Minister been in contact with his counterpart in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to check on the reduction in the number of officers who are able to enforce the measures? The process will put a considerable new responsibility on to the OFT.

[Gregory Barker]

I have not raised the matter in person, but my officials are working closely with a number of Departments—including, importantly, BIS—on that important element of the green deal proposition. We are satisfied that the OFT will have sufficient resource properly to monitor the green deal, and we will keep that under review as the green deal rolls out.

I will deal now with new clause 10 and the consequential amendment 36. The new clause has been tabled to replace the Opposition’s amendment on green deal apprenticeships, which we accepted in Committee—a great personal victory for the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger). As I said at the time, it is important that we take expert drafting advice on any amendment to a Bill, however well intentioned it might be. I reiterate that we fully support the creation of apprenticeships in green deal-related trades, and we will be happy to report to Parliament on our progress, as the hon. Lady requested. We believe that the new clause captures the spirit of her amendment; it simply clarifies a couple of technical matters regarding the exact nature of the new obligation. It requires the Secretary of State, before making the first framework regulations, to report to Parliament on the steps that he has taken to encourage green deal installation apprenticeships. I hope that that satisfies the hon. Lady.

Taken together, these are important measures in what will be the most ambitious home improvement programme since the second world war, and I hope that the whole House will support them. There are other amendments in the group that I have yet to address.

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[Barry Gardiner]

The shadow Minister is absolutely right that there has yet to be clarity on the issue, and clarity is vital. If we are to meet the targets that the Committee on Climate Change has set and the budgets, we must know that sufficient funds are available for the ECO to meet those targets. At present, my analysis and other analyses are quite clear that up to £22 billion is required, although an absolute cap of £1 billion might be provided under the ECO. As my hon. Friend suggests, that £1 billion might prove not to be a full £1 billion after all.

On new clause 9, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has estimated that the green deal will lead to employment in the sector increasing from 27,000 jobs currently to something approaching 250,000 jobs by 2020. That involves the creation of 27,875 jobs every year from the start of the green deal until 2020. Double the number of jobs that currently exist must be created every year. We heard earlier at Prime Minister’s Question Time about the latest unemployment figures and particularly the problems of youth unemployment. Of course, if those jobs were created, we would all welcome them, but there must be a doubt about these provisions.

In opposition, the Prime Minister called for a revolution in skills and training, so that the skills system responds far more effectively to the needs of individuals and businesses in a greener economy, but the recent green economy road map recognises the importance of that and refers to the introduction of new skills for a green economy and the grouping of sector skills councils to help businesses understand the changing skills requirement. It is crucial that that new grouping of sector skills councils supports the development of the additional 27,875 jobs every year between now and 2020. It would be of considerable interest to the House if the Minister explained what financial provision will be made to the sector skills councils to enable that sort of expansion—a tenfold expansion—to take place in the next nine years.

[Gregory Barker]

I should like to start by thanking the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for tabling amendments 49 and 50 and my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) and for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) for tabling amendment 28.

Amendment 49 would require that any energy efficiency services provided or products sold by green deal participants, in addition to those paid for with green deal finance, should be subject to the green deal regulatory framework. It is important to note that the green deal is an innovative form of finance agreement that is attached to the meter and therefore passes between bill payers. I think that we all understand that. So it needs specific protections, which are not necessarily relevant to those who do not take out the green deal.

I should like to assure hon. Members that we intend to require customers to be made fully aware of the difference between offers that fall under the green deal scheme, with all its specific safeguards, and those that fall outside. However, many of the forms of mis-selling that rightly concern the House can be prosecuted already under existing general consumer protection legislation. We will not accept companies using green deal accreditation as cover for less appropriate goods and services.

Amendment 50 would ensure that recommendations and estimated costs and savings are clearly and transparently communicated to the consumer as part of the green deal plan, thus enabling customers to compare offers. I should like to reassure hon. Members that we intend to require green deal providers to set out clearly how the proposed savings and costs meet the golden rule principle, as enabled by the power in clauses 4 and 5. I urge hon. Members to look specifically at clause 5.

In addition, the Consumer Credit Act 1974 will apply to domestic green deal plans in full, bar a few essential amendments, thus ensuring robust consumer protection, and it already regulates the provision of information to consumers who enter into credit arrangements.

[Gregory Barker]

Such people can certainly access the advice line. If people choose to pay in full and not to take finance agreements, they will not be any less covered by the accreditation of all green deal service providers and the protection and warranties that go with all green deal products. We must not forget that the green deal is not just about financial arrangements where consumer protection kicks in. We will set out in further detail in secondary legislation, which hon. Members will thoroughly scrutinise, and go to great lengths to ensure that there is a rigorous consumer protection element to the accreditation of all services that are green deal applicable. That will apply whether or not they are financed by consumer credit. Obviously, all products must be specified and approved for use under the green deal to ensure that they meet the golden rule.

[Barry Gardiner]

I welcome the fact that the Minister has said that customers and consumers will be protected by consumer credit legislation, and I welcome the fact that robust secondary legislation outlining further protections will be put in place. Will he tell the House at this stage whether he believes that consumers will be protected by the legislation that applies to the financial services industry so that an adviser can act either as a tied agent or as an independent agent, but not mix and match the two roles—at least not in the same consultation? If that protection is not provided by existing legislation, will he ensure that it is introduced in the secondary legislation to which he referred?

[Gregory Barker]

We will have to disagree on this. I understand the protections that the hon. Gentleman is trying to insert into the Bill, but I take a slightly more optimistic view of the potential both for introducing competition in the green deal process and for home improvement.

The biggest driver for take-up—and this is different from the German experience—is not concern about climate change and, surprisingly, it is not even concern about saving money on energy bills. The consumer research that our stakeholder forums have commissioned is revealing, because the majority of consumers said that the biggest factor in their taking up the green deal would be a desire to make their home nicer. That may seem counter-intuitive and surprising, given the high cost of energy, but more than half of respondents indicated that home improvement was the driving force. We need to harness that, and it is little wonder that people failed to respond to energy companies that were not in the home improvement game. They will be responsive, however to new entrants to the market such as B & Q, Marks and Spencer, John Lewis and so on, which excel in offering aspirational consumer propositions. Many people will seek to improve their house, and see no contradiction in making improvements by purchasing new wallpaper and carpets while, at the same time, undertaking energy improvements. I regard this not as an either/or conflict, but as an opportunity to ride on the back of that motivation. Rather than offering a hairshirt proposition, we should harness the inherent instincts of the British public to improve their home, and make it both nicer and warmer.

I welcome the arrival in the market of a host of new players offering additional propositions for home improvement that fall outside strict energy efficiency measures, because that will draw in more people and catch their interest, but—and it is an important but—we must ensure that the integrity of the independent assessment is upheld. We must ensure that there is no inappropriate cold calling or hard selling in the home, which is why we will thoroughly review the measures that are in place. If the evidence shows that they are not sufficient, we will introduce strong codes of practice and ensure that assessments are thoroughly independent. However, I do not share the pessimism of the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), or his reluctance to introduce the two measures alongside each other. As long as that is done in a thoroughly transparent and responsible way, it could be a benefit, rather than a negative.

[Barry Gardiner]

The Minister has said that in his view the green deal is market driven—that is a fundamental difference from the German scheme—so investment by commercial companies will propel the scheme forward. He is telling the House that, in a sense, it is driven principally by the profits that those companies will make. It is not driven by the imperative of increased energy efficiency, or by the need to meet the carbon budgets set by the Committee on Climate Change, or by the need to address fuel poverty. It is driven by the profit motive. I am willing to capture the drive that the market can bring, but the focus of the scheme, as set out by the Minister, is fundamentally wrong.

[Gregory Barker]

I know that the hon. Gentleman is not quite an unreconstructed, planned-economy socialist, but he is confusing means with ends. The purpose of the green deal—our starting point and our end point—is to meet our carbon budgets and fulfil our legal and statutory obligations under the Climate Change Act 2008, which was introduced with the support of Members in all parts of the House. For decades, we have singularly failed to drive effective home energy efficiency and, come to that, energy efficiency in the business and industrial sectors. Given the size of the deficit and the burden on the public purse, we are living in cloud cuckoo land if we imagine that we would drive down carbon emissions and transform home and business energy efficiency if we left the private sector untapped. We will achieve our objectives only if we harness effectively the power of the private sector. Of course, people will make profits, but provided that that is transparent and fair, I do not have a problem with it. It is called job and wealth creation, and spreading that widely. We do not have enough wealth creation in the UK—we need more—and the green deal will be an incredibly important vehicle in helping us to rebalance our economy and making us more efficient.

We should not ignore that, but it does not detract from the fact that the central aim of the legislation is to allow us to meet our stretching carbon reduction targets. The coalition is absolutely committed to doing so, and the green deal is the means to that end, so we should not confuse the two as the hon. Gentleman did.

Amendment 28, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington and my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole, seeks to ensure that we have powers to place restrictions on interest rates that can be offered as part of the green deal plan. I understand the concerns that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole articulated in his thoughtful speech, but I can assure him and other hon. Members that clause 5(1)(b) already provides the power—we accept the point that the hon. Gentleman is making—to limit interest rate structures that can be applied to green deal plans. It will not be possible to create a valid green deal plan, unless it specifically complies with the conditions contained in, or made under, clause 5.

The green deal is a market mechanism, and the golden-rule principle will create a natural incentive to drive down costs, so the Government do not intend to place restrictions on the level of interest charged. However, we are considering broader restrictions to ensure that green deal plans are equitable not just for the first but for all subsequent bill payers. This could mean limiting interest rate structures offered to domestic customers to those with the greatest likelihood of the golden rule being met in the first and subsequent years, and we will be consulting on what is quite a complicated area, not just with stakeholders in the financial services sector, but with all concerned stakeholders.

I would certainly welcome the thoughtful input from Members on both sides of the House into this important area of how we ensure we get the most competitive interest rate for the consumer. I invite my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole, the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington, and other hon. Members who have spoken in the debate and expressed legitimate concerns, to meet my officials so that we can ensure that we take notice of their concerns and take advantage of some of their ideas. I hope that I have been clear throughout proceedings on the Bill that we do not have a monopoly on the best ideas. As we develop the fine detail of the green deal, I am more than happy to work with them.

We recognise that the interest rate is only one of the drivers of affordability. We do not want unnecessarily to focus just on the interest rate. The actual cost of the products, particularly things like solid wall insulation, will be a key driver. Replacement windows are in a very exciting place. For the first time, because of technical innovation and the increased thermal value of new glazing, and because prices are coming down, we can anticipate that we will be able to include glazing in windows. Consumer-facing home improvements will come within the remit of the green deal, and make it much more attractive. The green deal will not just be about out of sight, out of mind, hidden interventions in a household, but about things that people will really value on a day-to-day basis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Barker]

I am afraid that the hon. Lady is wrong. We have a huge degree of engagement with consumer groups. All the obvious consumer groups have been involved heavily in formulating different parts of the green deal, and that work is ongoing. I have not seen the particular research she mentions, but we have certainly had involvement from Which?, Citizens Advice and Consumer Focus, as well as from sophisticated investors and institutions in the City of London. I do not expect offers to appear until October next year, and it is most unlikely that ambitious new entrants in the market will declare their hand so far in advance: they will wait to see how the market shapes up and look at their competitors before revealing their offers. That is my expectation, which is based on observing what else happens in the market, rather than on what stakeholders have said to me at DECC.

[Barry Gardiner]

The Minister has explained candidly that the ECO is a regressive measure that will be imposed on general utility bill payers and that it will be an additional cost for them. He has also alluded to the fact that the Government removed the cost of carbon capture and storage from those bills on coming into office. Will he give an undertaking that the additional amount he proposes to impose on bill payers through the ECO will not be greater than what he and his Government have already taken off bill payers through their previous measures? He talks of securitisation in the bond markets, but will he explain how a default rate can be estimated, given his assertion that there will be no possibility of defaulting on that part of the bill?

[Gregory Barker]

The default rate will be the same as the standard default rate for electricity bills generally, which is a very low percentage. It is probably higher in the present economic circumstances, but when averaged out over a decade, it is very low compared with other instances, and it will not be extrapolated out of that. On the ECO, the hon. Gentleman seems to be trying to have his cake and eat it. The bottom line is that there is no magic source of money; it all has to come from somewhere and ultimately that is the taxpayer and the consumer, who are basically the same person in this context. We have to be very responsible and we are constantly looking for ways to lighten the load for hard-pressed consumers, who are concerned about rising energy costs.

We will publish in the autumn our expectations of how DECC policies, taken together, will impact on consumers through to 2020. The results of the early work are extremely encouraging. These things must be seen in the round—one strand of policy cannot be taken out as though it was part of a Woolworths pick ’n’ mix. We have to take the energy efficiency measures, the levies and our other measures to encourage greater competition in the energy sector as a whole. We will publish that in the autumn, when I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to quiz the Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Lady makes an indisputable point. We are mindful of the mistakes made by the previous Labour Government, which resulted in a succession of levies being put on consumer bills without any thought to the long and short-term impact on the vulnerable. That is one reason why we saw such a steep rise in the number of people living in fuel poverty, which increased by millions during the last Parliament alone. It is a difficult balance to strike, and I can understand why Ministers took those decisions, because they had to find the money from somewhere. We are certainly very mindful of the point she raises, which is why, as the hon. Member for Brent North said earlier, we have taken steps to remove the levy for CCS and the renewable heat incentive levy from the bills. The Treasury will insist on clear value for money and due consideration of the impact on those who are least able to pay when we finally settle on the exact figure of the ECO, which will replace the CERT funding.

Amendment 27 tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, and amendment 45 tabled by the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington, deal with the collection of green deal payments. Allowing either energy bill to be used to collect the green deal charge looks attractive. I asked the very same questions myself and got exactly the same initial response as the hon. Lady, but the devil is in the detail and close analysis reveals significant problems. Requiring gas suppliers as well as electricity suppliers to facilitate the collection of green deal charges, which seems the obvious thing to do, given that heating is the larger element, substantially increases the implementation costs.

I really pushed back on that in the early stages of policy implementation, but our findings indicate that it could increase the implementation costs by up to 50%, which would ultimately be passed on to consumers, mainly because most energy suppliers have separate gas and electricity billing systems. Introducing a choice between collection of the green deal charge via electricity or gas, however desirable—I am all in favour of greater consumer choice—would require regulating two groups of companies rather than one, which would increase the risk of implementation failure and potentially cause a delay to the launch of the green deal in autumn 2012. Auditing payment flows would also be more difficult, because there would then be two possible routes through which the funding might flow.

The idea of allowing the occupier of a property with a green deal plan to switch collection methods at any point also prompted considerable concern in the industry. It would increase the possibility of billing inaccuracies, which in extreme cases could increase disconnections, which I know we all want to avoid, as well as increase the overall risk premium and push up interest rates, which we obviously want to keep as low as possible. I will return in a minute to the issue of disconnection.

That leaves collection only by electricity or by gas; fundamentally, it comes down to an either/or situation. I agree with the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion that gas seems the obvious choice, but collection via gas bills would automatically exclude the possibility of billing in that way the 4.3 million households that are off the mains gas grid when they access green deal finance for energy efficiency measures. Many of those properties are in rural communities, and it is important to the coalition that the green deal be available to both rural and urban communities. In contrast, almost all properties in Great Britain are connected to the electricity grid.

The change proposed would also raise the possibility of customers paying summer gas bills that are significantly higher than those before the green deal plan was taken out, which could be very difficult for many low-income families who are prepayment customers and not used to paying large amounts on their gas bill over the summer months. Many breathe a sigh of relief as they reach spring and have that little extra give in the family budget as a result of not having constantly to load their gas prepayment meter. It would be most problematic for prepayment customers on gas, who would then be expected to carry on paying charges equally through the summer, when normally they do not.

We still have a lot more work to do to deal with the iniquity of billing, whereby people on prepayment meters and low incomes often end up paying a higher tariff, so for the foreseeable future it makes sense to ensure that the charge is levelled out across the electricity bill, where we see far fewer lumpy payments, spikes and troughs.

[Barry Gardiner]

Does the Minister accept that, if we are really to reduce fuel poverty, we need to place the first units on the cheapest tariff, so that those who use least energy pay least for it, instead of, as happens now, their paying most for the first bundle and paying less the more they consume? They should pay least for the smallest amount and, as they increase their consumption, pay more per unit.

[Gregory Barker]

I am of course familiar with that argument of rising block tariffs, but that too has unintended consequences, which often hit pensioners in particular. However, I think I would be ruled out of order if I lurched into a discussion of tariffs, which are not necessarily the subject of the amendments before us.

We are left with collection via electricity bills as the only practical solution. The Government accept that that requires measures to strengthen the cognitive link between the green deal charge and energy savings, which in many cases will be realised on the gas bill. That is why the Government plan two requirements to increase the link between the two. First, for the 14.8 million households that receive their gas and electricity from the same supplier, the Government plan to introduce a requirement on energy suppliers to provide a combined energy bill, with the charges for gas and electricity supply and the green deal charge clearly identified on the front page. Secondly, the Government will introduce a requirement for electricity suppliers to reproduce the estimated savings from the green deal assessment on the green deal customer’s annual energy statement.

On the issue of disconnection, it is important that the green deal charge is treated in the same way as normal energy bill payments, so that defaults are kept to an absolute minimum and low-cost finance can be offered. I do not expect the green deal to increase disconnection, given the protection of the golden rule principle.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Barker]

As the Bill Committee and, in particular, the Chairman of the Environmental Audit Committee suggested I do, I have already met Lord Turner of Ecchinswell and the Committee on Climate Change to discuss how it might inform the guidance that the Government are preparing to help local authorities cut carbon emission in their areas. I expect that the framework and the guidance that the CCC provides will help to answer, at least in part, the hon. Lady’s question. I expect a formal proposal from the CCC shortly; when we met, Lord Turner certainly took on board how crucial it is that the Committee’s advice be completed early next year, so as to feed into the permissive guidance for local authorities being developed by the Department for Communities and Local Government.

[Barry Gardiner]

Will the Minister undertake to make Lord Turner’s advice available to Members who sat on the Bill Committee and, indeed, to my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), so that we might see exactly how it will operate?

[Gregory Barker]

I am very happy to do so. Indeed, I am sure that Members will have further ideas on how to build up the advice that we give local authorities. Given that it will go to councils of every political party, it is important that it is seen to be thoroughly objective, so a sense of co-ownership would indeed be very helpful.

New clauses 7 and 18 and amendment 24 deal with the ECO and fuel poverty. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), who tabled new clause 7, may recall what I said in Committee in response to a similar amendment: that the Treasury is responsible for the allocation of public funds. Putting a duty on the Secretary of State to report on potential uses of central Government revenues would, I am afraid, conflict with the Treasury’s responsibility. I assure her, however, that the Government are taking great care to ensure that their policies in the round will be up to the task of delivering our climate change and fuel poverty objectives. The ECO is a key part of this, and we will make sure that it has the right level of ambition to achieve our goals without putting an unduly heavy or inequitable burden on energy bills. On that basis, I hope that the hon. Lady will not press the amendment.

Amendment 24, tabled by the hon. Members for Liverpool, Wavertree and for Ogmore, and new clause 18, tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, focus on data sharing. Although I understand the intent of the proposal, we do not need it now because the existing warm home discount scheme will provide the six major energy suppliers with the details of more than 600,000 older poorer pensioners this winter and information on thousands of further customers over each of the three subsequent years. That information will be used to provide a £120 rebate this winter to those customers, but it can also be used to provide the customers with additional advice, including information about the ECO. Additional powers for further data sharing are therefore not necessary at this time.

The forthcoming ECO consultation will report on the likely impacts of the policy, as will the accompanying impact assessment. The type of statutory duty that amendment 24 would introduce is not necessary for the purpose of showing the intended impact that the ECO will have on fuel poverty and the energy efficiency of properties. I can therefore assure the hon. Members for Liverpool, Wavertree and for Ogmore that the intentions of the amendment are already met in full.

Amendments 2 to 8, 19, 47 and 48 deal with the private rented sector provisions. These were tabled by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), the hon. Members for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), for Brighton, Pavilion, for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), for Foyle (Mark Durkan), for Liverpool, Wavertree and for Ogmore, and my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley). Amendments 6, 7, 19, 47 and 48 relate to timing issues, and I will consider those first, albeit briefly.

As we debated in Committee, we are providing landlords with a firm legislative position. The tenants’ energy efficiency regulations must come into force no later than 1 April 2016. Under those regulations, tenants will be able to ask for consent from their landlord to make relevant energy efficiency improvements such as those funded under the green deal or ECO, and their requests cannot be unreasonably refused. Amendments 7 and 48 propose that the regulations on tenants’ right to request should be introduced sooner, but as well as regulatory certainty, we need to provide landlords with a reasonable period in which to prepare and get up to speed with the regulations. The dates we have chosen strike a balance between pursuing greater energy efficiency benefits and giving landlords time to prepare.

I draw the House’s attention to the latest survey, published this week, which clearly shows that two thirds of landlords are keen to act and take up the green deal, and that only a relatively small minority—fewer than 20%—are dragging their feet. There are grounds to be optimistic that landlords are not resisting this agenda. We have set the dates of 2016 and, as a backstop, 2018, but I cannot reiterate strongly enough—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Thursday 19th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Fifty per cent more CO₂ emissions savings could be made in the transport sector by adopting Greener Journeys’ ONE Billion challenge for a modal shift. Will the Minister look into the efficacy of the scheme and discuss the proposal with his counterpart at the Department for Transport?

[Gregory Barker]

I am not familiar with the details of the scheme that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, but I will certainly look into this and I would be happy to communicate with my colleagues at the Department for Transport.

Energy Bill [Lords]

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

I am delighted to hear from the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) that the Opposition will not vote against the Bill, but I will hold her to blame if my hon. Friends now start to disappear from the Chamber during my winding-up speech. She has just delivered a very polished debut from the Dispatch Box. I think that winding up is a much harder job than opening, but she made a very good fist of it.

I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s rather gloomy scepticism about this important Bill, but she was spot on in one respect: this has been an excellent debate, with powerful and substantive contributions from both sides of the Chamber. In saying that, I gloss over the opening speech of the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), whose contribution was out of tune with the debate we subsequently had. I was genuinely pleased by the way in which Members across the Chamber engaged in scrutinising these radical and far-reaching proposals, and I have to say it is telling to compare and contrast the shadow Secretary of State’s speech with the master-class demonstration by the leader of the Green party, the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), of what can be achieved in an effective and intelligent critique from the Opposition Benches.

This Bill is only the first step in the new Government’s plans to reshape and renew our energy economy, but it is certainly a very clear and substantial demonstration of the coalition’s determination to be “the greenest Government ever”. These measures will be vital tools in helping to meet our stretching carbon reduction targets and they underpin our determination to stop dangerous global warming.

The Bill, however, is no tree hugger’s charter, nor is it a narrow response to the science of climate change; it can provide practical help to families and money-saving improvements to every home in Britain. The British housing stock, which for too long has languished at the very bottom of the European energy-efficiency league table, will be transformed. Finally, government will have a game-changing policy framework that is commensurate with the huge twin challenges of improving our housing stock and eradicating fuel poverty.

That said, I am very conscious of the fact that with this Bill we are putting in place a gigantic project that will stretch way beyond this Parliament and, we hope, the next too. The green deal framework is designed to continue well into the 2020s and beyond, so I do not pretend for a moment that this Bill will be the last word on the issue or that we have anticipated every eventuality. We will continue to consider new incentives and levers to drive the programme forward as the market develops and we reach towards that very ambitious level of retrofitting 14 million homes by 2020 and 26 million homes by 2030. But the long-term direction is clear: there will be no more short-term initiatives and no more stop-start schemes. Business certainty created by the green deal will be essential to unlocking the billions in private sector investment that will be key to this programme’s success.

I am keenly aware that responsible political consensus on the green deal is particularly desirable. I very much hope that, given the shared climate objectives among the parties, we can all show the same resolve and constructive cross-party engagement that was the hallmark of the Climate Change Act 2008. I listened carefully to the thoughtful speeches made by hon. Members on both sides of the House today, and I would be happy to engage in an informal evidence-based session before the House rises for the Whitsun recess. I noted not only the shared ambition that Members on both sides of the Chamber have for the Bill, but the detailed concerns and questions that have been raised. I hope to address many of these issues now. Where I am unable to do so, I hope to deal with them more seriously, and constructively, in Committee.

Broadly speaking, six main themes have emerged from today’s debate, and I hope to hear more about them in that informal session. The first was the scope of the coalition’s ambition, the scale and pace of delivery, and how we measure success. The second was the energy company obligation—the ECO—and the challenge of ensuring that we deal effectively with fuel poverty. Thirdly, hon. Members rightly urged robust consumer protection—that is absolutely essential. Fourthly, hon. Members strongly argued the case for more ways to involve local communities and local councils, and, importantly, challenged us on the provisions to tackle recalcitrant landlords in the private rented sector. Fifthly, we debated the enormous potential of the green deal to drive green jobs and green growth, and to create new investment opportunities. Finally, we must not overlook the importance of enhancing our national energy security, as well as moving our economy beyond dependence on foreign oil and expensive imported fossil fuels.

Let me deal briefly with each of those themes in turn. Many questions were asked on the fundamental point of the scale of our ambition by, among others, the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), with whom I have served for many years on the Environmental Audit Committee. The issue was also addressed in particularly informative contributions from the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner). I am pleased to respond to them by saying that I can announce two important developments. First, my Department will publish a formal aim—that is, on the face of the Bill—to take reasonable steps to improve the energy efficiency of the English residential sector by 2020 so that emissions from that sector follow a trajectory that is consistent with the UK carbon budgets. Secondly, I will table an amendment that commits to an annual report to Parliament on the specific contribution of the green deal and the ECO, within the context of contributing to the carbon budgets set out by the Climate Change Act that have so concerned Members from all parties in the course of the debate.

Many Members raised the issue of the ECO and fuel poverty. Fuel poverty is key to the essence of the Bill and we will certainly be judged on its success. Those Members included the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch and my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee), who is a member of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change as well as of the Conservative friends of Bangladesh and so has a particular interest in international climate change issues. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), with his usual expertise, focused on the ECO and the role it plays in the potential levies cap. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion had some very vivid cases of fuel poverty from her constituency that will be reflected across the land, as did the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch.

Let me be clear that the ECO is designed to work hand in glove with the green deal to help the most vulnerable households and hard-to-treat properties. The ECO will deliver heating systems and insulation in the most effective way to help low-income vulnerable households heat their homes affordably and it will be tightly targeted. The ECO and the warm home discount provide a range of support mechanisms for low-income vulnerable households. I have heard the calls for more information and so I commit today to bring forward details on the ECO before we go into Committee.

On the subject of robust consumer protection, we heard the shadow Secretary of State’s questions about who will be the regulator and whether we could have more detail. The right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton wanted to know more about how the green deal would work for vulnerable energy users. My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), in his very statesmanlike speech, also highlighted the need for more protection for the most vulnerable in society.

There will be strong consumer protection. It will be necessary to propose that level of detail in statutory instruments, through which we will all have the opportunity to scrutinise those important points in more detail. There will be a green deal quality mark for installers and warranties against installation failure and poor workmanship. The golden rule is that the charge attached to the Bill should not exceed the expected savings at the time of the assessment and that will be crystal clear. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 will offer protection for green deal customers. I really appreciate the way the industry has got involved on this important issue. Voices such as Kingfisher and the Builders Merchants Federation are essential in helping us to design the green deal so that big companies and local small and medium-sized enterprises can get involved while at the same time offering strong consumer protection.

The question of involving communities and tackling the private rented sector was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White), the hon. Members for Stoke-on-Trent North, for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) and for Brighton, Pavilion, the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton and the hon. Member for Southampton, Test. We will take robust action on the face of the Bill in respect of the private rented sector. Before we came to the House today, we listened to various voices from a number of stakeholders on the subject of the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 and we have decided to retain parts of HECA, to breathe new life into it and to ensure that it becomes part of our way of ensuring uniform delivery of the green deal across Britain. We will table those amendments in Committee.

The question of green growth and investment was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr Brine), who made a very powerful speech arguing that the green deal is a great carrot, rather than a stick, that will throw up a huge number of business opportunities. He also rightly tested us on the need for more training opportunities, which we are taking very seriously. The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) also asked whether we would be letting in small businesses. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester pointed out that this could mean 100,000 jobs or more. It is important that we do not just capture the carbon savings, but that we really capture the industrial opportunities that this big market push will afford us.

[Barry Gardiner]

Will the Minister give way?

[Gregory Barker]

I will not, I am afraid, because there is very little time.

On energy security and moving beyond oil dependence, the Chairman of the Select Committee made a very important contribution at the beginning of the debate pointing out the need for stability in electricity markets and for investors and about the role for nuclear and the important role of renewables. That will be delivered through the next stage of our redesign and renewal of the sector in energy market reform. Those points were all reiterated by the hon. Members for Cheltenham and for Angus and my hon. Friends the Members for Northampton South and for York Outer (Julian Sturdy), who listed a number of energy security measures, as well as by my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), who spoke forcefully about offshore renewables, and my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo). We are very keen to see a resurgence in renewables and support for new technologies, including carbon capture and storage. I promise to write to hon. Members about any important points they have raised that I do not cover in what will be a rather hasty wind-up now.

In summary, no one should underestimate the sheer scale of the ambition that underpins the Bill, which has the potential to upgrade the homes of every family in Britain by allowing every household to access finance for up to £10,000-worth of energy improvements irrespective of age or status. Further subsidy is available for hard-to-treat homes and, of course, the fuel-poor. The Bill will unleash the most far-reaching programme of British home improvements since the second world war. It will drive down family energy costs and will insulate consumers against further sharp rises in future. The Bill will unleash billions of pounds in new investment in our green economy and will create thousands of new green jobs.

The Bill will directly help those in poor rented accommodation whose landlords refuse to make improvements, and it declares war on the root causes of fuel poverty. The Bill will deliver huge steps towards meeting our carbon reduction targets and it will strengthen British energy security. The Bill will create a brand new market and will drive choice and competition. It will unleash British research and development as well as technical and industrial innovation that should propel the UK to the forefront of the giant global markets for energy efficiency, products and services—exports up, emissions down. The Bill will deliver greater choice to the consumer and fairer access to investment for the fuel-poor and it will be a massive boost to British businesses. I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

ENERGY BILL [LORDS] (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Energy Bill [Lords]:

Committal

1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 21 June 2011.

3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

4. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of any Message from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Bill Wiggin.)

Question agreed to.



ENERGY BILL [LORDS] (MONEY)

Queen’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Energy Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—

(1) any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State or the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority by virtue of the Act, and

(2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Bill Wiggin.)

Question agreed to.

ENERGY BILL [LORDS] (WAYS AND MEANS)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Energy Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise—

(1) the imposition by virtue of the Act of charges under licences issued under the Electricity Act 1989 or the Gas Act 1986, and

(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Bill Wiggin.)

Question agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Thursday 11th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Gregory Barker]

First, may I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s long record of campaigning on this issue? I assure him that Warm Front remains open. We will be treating tens of thousands of new homes this winter. However, it must be the right long-term approach to look for new ways to crowd in private sector investment.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has announced his intention significantly to advance the 2020 target for the roll-out of smart meters. The industry, however, is saying that, for each year in advance, there may be trade-offs in efficiency, the interoperability of the kit and the overall functioning of the scheme. Will the Minister ask his officials to investigate that trade-off between efficiency and the acceleration of the scheme, and report back to Parliament?

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman is right. There is a new sense of ambition on the roll-out of smart meters because they offer huge potential. He is also right that that is complex. There is a trade-off to be made, and we are alive to that. My hon. Friend the Minister and our officials are working on the matter collaboratively with the industry, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are making good progress.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Thursday 16th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

8. What representations he plans to make at the October 2010 Tianjin climate change conference for amendment of the UN proposals governing emissions from land use, land use change and forestry to ensure that the managed forest emissions of developed countries are properly accounted for.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

At the United Nations framework convention on climate change intersessional in Tianjin in October, although I will not be present, my officials will continue to push for accounting rules for robust forest management that maximise incentives for action while ensuring strong environmental integrity.

[Barry Gardiner]

Under the current proposals, 465 megatonnes a year—almost half a gigatonne—of emissions from the logging industry will not be properly accounted for, because the Minister is going to support reference levels that are based on business-as-usual projections rather than on historical data. When are the Government going to stop pandering to the logging industry? They have already abandoned their manifesto commitment for UK legislation and now they are giving the industry a half-gigatonne backhander.

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman has great experience in this sector and I am sure that his green credentials will stand him in very good stead in the shadow Cabinet elections, but I assure him that we are committed to having very robust rules and transparent mechanisms for land use, land use change and forestry—LULUCF. I hear what he is saying, but there are a range of options on the table and we have not yet reached a definitive end to this. We are absolutely committed to saving the rain forest, we have put the finance in place and we are leading the debate on this issue. We really are determined to push it further forward at Tianjin.

Energy Efficiency

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Lord Barker of Battle

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister to his position. He has taken a long and careful interest in the matters for which he has responsibility, and I welcome his enthusiasm. So far in this debate, however, he has been quick to parry any questions that are not specifically about energy efficiency and has responded in a very constrained manner. If we are to have the debate that all of us would wish this afternoon, we need to be able to discuss the energy context in which it takes place and the broader financial measures that will be available to the industry in the future, in order to consider the wider aspects of the green deal the Minister has talked about.

[Gregory Barker]

Obviously, I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s comments, and he is an expert in this field, but the key point I made at the beginning of my speech is that energy efficiency has always been the poor relation and that all too often people leap to discuss other, perhaps more sexy, matters such as heat pumps, the renewables heat incentive or renewable energy. While I want a full debate—and, of course, I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s questions as best I can—I also want to focus the discussion on energy efficiency, because it is the most important and the best value-for-money consideration in terms of saving carbon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Barker]

That is a very good point. I think that my colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government would have direct ministerial responsibility for that point, but it is worth while, and if the hon. Gentleman would care to write to me about it I would be happy to take it up.

We will go further. We are also talking to industry about similar restrictions on other low-value gadgets and appliances. All these new measures are specifically designed to do more for the fuel-poor, because we fully recognise that fuel poverty is a growing challenge, with the number of households in fuel poverty having risen every year since 2004, to 4.6 million households in England alone in 2009. Given that legacy of rising fuel poverty, we are creating a new CERT category of those who have the greatest need, in addition to the priority group of vulnerable households, which will already account for at least 40% of the total CERT extension measures. Pensioners, people with children and the disabled will form a super-priority group on whom at least 15% of the new programme must be targeted. That means that more than £400 million will be focused over the next 18 months on the poorest and most vulnerable.

[Barry Gardiner]

Would the Minister be good enough to clarify whether, when he says families with children, he means all families with children or whether he is talking about families that are in receipt of working families tax credit and so on? Is it targeted specifically at the poor or will it include all families with children?

[Gregory Barker]

It is targeted at all people with children—that is, at all households where there are young children and where income is low. I would be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman with further details. We will need to bring these measures to the House, and perhaps we could debate that point then.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Barker]

No; I hope that by the time we have finished explaining it properly and getting over this new paradigm, it will not be seen as a loan because it is not a loan. I hope that the hon. Gentleman—and, indeed, all Members—will join me in explaining that to our constituents. This is a really fundamental point, because he is absolutely right that if people perceive it as a loan, which it is not, there will be a reluctance to take it up, particularly in the current environment. There is another element. We accept that for the poorest in society, who cannot make the savings because they do not have the cash to heat their homes in the first place, there will be a need for direct subsidy or intervention. It is on those people and the hard-to-treat homes that we want to focus the ongoing obligation on the energy suppliers.

[Barry Gardiner]

The final point that the Minister made is particularly important, but let me go back to the main point about the up-front funding costs of installing the energy-efficiency measures. Will he confirm that although those costs will be met through the energy companies, the Government will none the less have to guarantee those costs? Will he confirm that the cost of that guarantee to the public finances could be in the region of £162 billion if every family in the country took up the Prime Minister’s offer of the £6,500 limit?

[Gregory Barker]

I am happy to reassure the hon. Gentleman that no such guarantee is involved or required. I have had extensive meetings not only with the chief executives of energy companies, but with very senior members of the banking community, active participants in the capital markets and retailers such as Marks and Spencer, B&Q, which has been extremely supportive, and others, including installers. Across the industry—in financing, instalment and retail—there is universal acceptance of this model and there will be innovation in the capital markets. Some companies will choose to take the charge on to their balance sheets, but others will choose to participate in partnership with a financing company. I think there will be a real appetite among UK institutions—this is the game-changing element—to purchase what will in effect be a form of bond with a 25-year life. I think they will be securitised together and parcelled up, and will then make attractive investments for UK pension funds, which currently suffer from a relatively limited choice of secure, long-term investments from which to fund their annuities. I can guarantee for the hon. Gentleman that, just as the green deal is not a personal loan, mortgage or charge, nor will it sit on the Government balance sheet or require a Government guarantee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner]

My hon. Friend is entirely right, and the example that he gives illustrates the extent of the gap opening up between our generation capacity and our predicted levels of consumption. I hope that he will pursue that point, perhaps in his own remarks later this afternoon.

Of course, the best way to manage this shortfall in supply is to engineer a corresponding shortfall in demand. That is where energy efficiency is critical, and I was delighted that the Minister of State with responsibility for energy efficiency visited the Mark Group’s home energy efficiency academy earlier this month to welcome their 1,000th graduate—Shaun, I believe his name was. The academy is exactly the sort of resource that we need if we are to make sure that our small and medium-sized construction enterprises have the skills that they need to retrofit insulation to all the UK’s housing stock.

I trust that the Minister will acknowledge the fact that the Mark Group academy was set up in November 2007 as part of the Labour Government’s green homes initiative. In fact, Bill Rumble, the Mark Group director, said at the time:

“We welcome the Prime Minister’s”—

that is our Prime Minister, not the Conservative party’s Prime Minister—

“environment plans as a real step in the right direction in the task of arresting climate change and reducing the UK’s carbon emissions.

The Mark Group agrees with Gordon Brown’s assertion that the UK can take a global lead in tackling climate change and in doing so generating thousands of jobs.”

I do not wish to detract from the Government’s green deal; indeed, I applaud it. We need to accelerate the work of insulating the millions of homes without adequate loft insulation, and the millions of homes without cavity wall insulation. However, I would simply make two points. It is all very well to celebrate the 1,000th graduate trainee, but it sits uneasily with the abolition of the Train to Gain programme, which helped small construction and other companies to acquire precisely such skills, and to equip themselves and their workers for the green jobs of the future.

The second point is that it makes no sense to ask householders to improve the energy efficiency of their homes at the same time as increasing the cost of doing so by 2.5%. I challenge the Secretary of State to show that deep inside his new Teflon Tory exterior there is still a limp Liberal longing to get out—to show us that the Liberal pledge before the election not to raise VAT was more than just the point scoring that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has claimed it was. I ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to speak to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. The latter is another Liberal, and is, I think, the Member with the longest constituency name—Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey. After yesterday’s oration to the House, he is also the Member with the shortest political credibility. They should agree to reduce VAT on the materials and labour used for increasing the energy efficiency of domestic properties. That would make a real difference. If the VAT on such work was 5% instead of 20%, that would go a tremendous way towards incentivising householders and other property owners to make sure that they do the necessary work.

If the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change will not do that, rolling out smart meters in every home; piloting pay-as-you-save and ways to make homes greener; introducing clean energy cashback schemes; and making the UK a centre of green industry—all that—is just so much recycling of the stated policy of the last Government, as set out in the “The UK Low Carbon Transition Plan”, published in July last year. The truth is that approximately 90% of what Ministers have announced in their green deal comes from that document. No wonder earlier this month the Department issued a YouTube video entitled “Chris Huhne launches Wind Week”.

Today, the Committee on Climate Change released its second annual report on progress towards a low-carbon economy. The committee makes it clear that we can deliver on our commitment to reduce emissions by at least 34% by 2020, but only if we accelerate our roll-out of renewables and effect a step change in domestic energy efficiency. So let me welcome the Secretary of State’s remarks today, in which he said:

“we mustn’t rely on economic recession to cut emissions.”

I agree. He continued:

“There has to be an enduring shift to low carbon…locked into the fabric of our economy in good times and bad.”

I commend to him “A Woodfuel Strategy for England”. After a very modest investment of about £16 million—million, not billion—a year for only seven years, it would show net benefits of approximately £30 million a year in energy cost savings, and would save 400,000 tonnes of CO₂ emissions. More than that, it would improve the biodiversity of our woodland heritage by cropping, lopping and clearing deadwood from under-managed woodland. The equivalent of 250,000 homes could be heated for a net £30 million benefit per annum, and the reinvigoration of our broadleaf woodlands—a truly efficient ecosystem-based solution. I hope the Minister will speak to his colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and implement this strategy as part of his green deal.

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman is an acknowledged expert and has a distinguished record in the field of woodland and forestry, in particular. It is hard to conceive how that would fit into the green deal, but I acknowledge his expertise and I personally have an interest in being more ambitious in relation to the wood economy. If he would care to come into the Department and discuss it with me and officials, we could look at ways in which, in the context of these straitened financial times, we could do more to support that industry.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful to the Minister for that offer, and I would be happy to take him up on it.

The wood fuel strategy is an important element of our energy efficiency programme. Wood is renewable and can be sourced locally, minimising transport costs. It is incredibly efficient, and represents part of the way in which we could transform local communities. I think that the Minister was present when there was an intervention from the Opposition Benches about the bulk provision of heat to communities and the importance of large biomass boilers, which could provide for communities in a much more energy-efficient way. That fits in with the wider aims of an energy efficiency strategy. I am grateful to the Minister for his offer, and look forward to speaking to him further about it.

If we are to make real progress on energy efficiency, public transport must become a priority for the new Government, which currently it is not. To put it simply, public transport must be the easiest, most accessible, most affordable and most reliable service available to the public. I was disappointed that the Minister said not one word about public transport as an instrument for delivering energy efficiency. Transport represents a fifth of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions; it did not represent so much as one fiftieth of his speech.

However, I welcome the new Government’s proposal to introduce a minimum price for carbon. The second progress report from the independent Committee on Climate Change, which was published today, states:

“The carbon price within the EU Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS), and future expected prices, remain low. For the interim period before new electricity market arrangements are introduced, and in the absence of EU-wide action, there is a strong case for introduction of a UK carbon price floor”.

If the private sector is to be encouraged to invest in a low-carbon future, it must be given confidence that its investment will reap appropriate rewards. A floor price for carbon gives stability, and that certainty for the market that will drive investment. I welcome it.

Sometimes in this debate, party Front-Bench spokespeople have been tempted to imply that only their party has seen the light, saw the light first, or uniquely has the solutions to our energy problems. I was a late convert to environmental matters. Indeed, my family sometimes still admonish me for putting apple cores in the wrong bin. The environment was not on my political radar when I entered the House 13 years ago. Now I hold it to be the most vital topic on the political agenda, so I welcome the Conservative party’s proposals for improving energy efficiency. However late they are I welcome them, especially where they have adopted good Labour party proposals. I welcome them even more when they get Liberals to go nuclear, even if under the coalition agreement the Liberals do not have to vote nuclear.

I hope the new Government will live up to their undoubted enthusiasm and undoubted good intentions on energy efficiency and climate change, but I warn them that we on the Opposition Benches will hold them to account where they backslide, and for the areas in which they fail to make the progress that we all need.