Horizon: Compensation and Convictions

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Kevin Hollinrake

Monday 8th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her question. I share her wish to pay tribute to the sub-postmasters who campaigned so long and effectively on the issue. I read with interest the piece she wrote the other weekend about what she thinks should be done, and I agree with much of what she said. As I said earlier, anybody who is responsible, either at a corporate level or individually, should be held to account, which may include payments to assist with compensation and looking at the contracts that have been awarded. It is right to let Sir Wyn Williams undertake his inquiry, report properly and assign blame, and we should take action, at a corporate or individual level, at that time, to make sure both of those bodies are accountable.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The Minister said that this was about not just compensation but restoration. That is true, but is it not also about misfeasance in public office? Will the Minister confirm that the maximum penalty for a public servant who willingly and knowingly acts in manner that results in harm, injury or financial loss to an innocent party is life imprisonment?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Well, the hon. Gentleman raises an important point about accountability. We have given Sir Wyn Williams the chance to look at all these issues and determine accountability and individual responsibility. I have dealt with a number of different scandals over the years, from the Back Benches as well as in my ministerial role. They happen at a corporate level too often for us to simply carry on in the way we have done in the past, so I am happy to take away the hon. Gentleman’s points about the potential penalty for the offence he describes, which I will discuss with officials and others.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Kevin Hollinrake

Committee stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

In answer to the point from the hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana), negotiations need to continue, and they need to be fair to workers, but also to the taxpayer, which I will touch on in a second.

I reject the characterisation of this Bill by the Opposition, who clearly put their relationship with their unions over the interests of this country. This is not a radical Bill. What we are doing is not even new. We are taking reasonable, proportionate and balanced steps and aligning ourselves with many of our European partners, such as France and Spain.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Will the Minister accept that health and safety legislation in this country—to ensure guards on machinery, for example, to stop people’s hands being chopped off—was won because workers withdrew their labour? Does he understand that the ambulance workers and the nurses say that the very reason they are going on strike is to make sure that the service is safe? What he is saying at the Dispatch Box is complete rubbish.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. On nurses, we already have voluntary agreements, yet still they go on strike. The two things are consistent and are not mutually exclusive, but I recognise his point on the right to withdraw labour and bring attention to certain things, whether pay or other matters at work. It is absolutely right that people should be able to do that, but it should not prevent others going about their daily business and, indeed, feeling safe in terms of such things as healthcare.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Kevin Hollinrake

2nd reading
Monday 16th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I would highlight the downward pressure already placed on inflation, the changes to the money markets following the action taken by our Chancellor and Prime Minister and the stability being delivered through their future plan.

[Barry Gardiner]

Will the Minister give way?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I will shortly. Ministers across Government have been meeting unions to resolve the disputes where it is possible to do so. It is obviously apparent that unions exist to represent union members. Apparently, from today’s debate, so does the Labour party. The shadow Cabinet alone has received £350,000 since 2019. It is important to reflect on those figures. We need to have the confidence that when workers strike, people’s lives and livelihoods are not put at risk, so we need the power to act. That is why this legislation is needed. The public expect us to act. It is no wonder that YouGov polling for The Times published last week found that 56% of voters support this legislation and only 31% are against it.

[Barry Gardiner]

The Minister will know that under this Bill it is possible for the Government to designate workers to perform under a contract when they have voted to go on strike. Will he at least give an assurance that there will be no attempt by any Secretary of State to designate a union official to break a strike that they have encouraged their union members to be involved in?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I will deal with work notices later in my speech, but it is clear that it is up to employers to decide what workers are needed on certain days, and there is no discrimination between people who are union members and people who are not. That is very clear in the legislation. Hon. Members have questioned the sectors within the Bill. The sectors in scope of the Bill are justified as these sectors are where strike action causes disproportionate disruption to the general public.

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Kevin Hollinrake

Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My principal concern is the amount of bureaucracy in and the interpretation of the Bill. I have many good lawyer friends—this usually has a “but” attached to it, doesn’t it?—but there are bound to be different interpretations of this kind of legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) set that out very clearly. Let us take just the phrase “all information”—that can mean virtually anything. A process can be subject to challenge all the way down the line and there can then be a claim for wrongful dismissal on the basis of a simple document that was not provided. Who would decide whether all the information has been provided? The appointed representative, at any point, could challenge the fact that all the information was not provided. It could be a very small piece of information that the employer never considered relevant to the discussion. Again, there is a huge opportunity for interpretation and bureaucracy. That cannot be positive for a good business environment.

There is also the issue of capacity. We already have issues about capacity for employment tribunals. This also brings in a whole new set of responsibilities for the Central Arbitration Committee and there is no understanding of whether that capacity can be filled.

[Barry Gardiner]

There is much in what the hon. Gentleman has said that I agree with. I just point out that the Bill does not actually ask for the disclosure of “all information”. It asks for the disclosure of

“all information…without which the appropriate representatives would be to a material extent impeded in carrying on consultation with the employer, and… which it would be in accordance with good industrial relations practice that the employer should disclose”.

That is not a catch-all. It is specifically about the information necessary to conduct proper consultations about the future of the business. He is being very fair in the remarks that he has made, but he must not misrepresent the Bill in that way.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I certainly do not seek to do that. Proposed new section 187B(2) of the 1992 Act says:

“The information to be disclosed is all information relating to the employer’s undertaking (including information relating to use of agency workers in that undertaking) which is in the employer’s possession, or that of an associated employer”.

There is a double requirement, so “all information” does seem to apply.

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[Kevin Hollinrake]

I would like to be able to, but I am not sure that is incumbent on anybody who opposes the Bill. It is right for somebody who introduces the Bill to state alongside it what extra capacity will be needed, and the cost of that to the taxpayer or the businesses concerned. To my knowledge, that work has not been done.

I am also concerned about clause 27D, on the unilateral variation of employment contracts. No doubt some of the evidence taken showed that some contracts of employment allow unilateral variation. That is not something I have never done in my business practice, but nevertheless the Bill seeks to make those provisions unworkable or not legal, meaning that employers will not be able to rely on that in future, and those elements of the contract will effectively become null and void. I do not blame the hon. Member for Brent North for seeking to do that. As an employer I would not involve myself in such a practice, but it seems to be retrospective legislation. It is bound to make businesses nervous if we legislate retrospectively about such matters, and I wonder whether he has considered that point.

[Barry Gardiner]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is right, and the courts find it disagreeable that such a clause, purporting to allow retrospective variation of the contract, should be embedded within the contract. I would support the hon. Gentleman’s objection if indeed it were retrospective legislation, but the precise point is that any such clause purports to give a right to one party in the contract, and in effect to dispense with the entire contract and simply change it at will. That is what is so objectionable about it, that is what the court found objectionable, and that is what the Bill seeks to change.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

It is an interesting point, and I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s clarification. My final point is on clause 187E, which seems to say that in almost any circumstance where new terms are offered, the employee has an automatic right to go to a tribunal. That seems to me strange. If any of the things outlined in subsection (1)(a)(iii) happened and an offer has been made, the clause seems to give an automatic right for someone to go to an employment tribunal, without requiring the provisions in clause 187A or B. I might have read that wrong, but it is certainly seems to be the case. Admittedly, that kind of point could be picked up in Committee, but my overriding point is this that issue requires cross-party thought. I would much rather see the provisions become effective through guidelines, financial sanctions or other means, and I do not feel that I could support the Bill were it to be voted on today.

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Kevin Hollinrake

2nd reading
Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the Bill now be read a Second time.

This Bill is about making Britain the best place to work. It is about levelling up and treating people fairly. It is about better regulation to govern fire and rehire. I am grateful to hon. Members on both sides of the House. I know that Fridays are an important time for us all to be with our constituents. That so many Members have chosen to be here is, I hope, not simply testimony to the power of the Whips, although I have my doubts. I believe it is because Members of all parties recognise that the practice of fire and rehire is creating hardship and real distress for hundreds of thousands of families across Britain. We can end that misery, and we must. I will set out my remarks in answer to four key questions: what the problem is, how we can solve it, what my Bill does not do, and what it does do.

What is the problem? I believe that every Member of the House would do all they could to stop a key worker in their constituency having their wages cut by thousands of pounds. Each of us would want to prevent a constituent who has done nothing wrong and has given loyal service from being fired. If we could, we all would.

These people are workers who have kept us all going through the pandemic and are now being fired and rehired. They are loyal workers who have served their companies for years, such as bus drivers who risked covid to keep the economy going; gas workers who kept the heating on in our grandparents’ homes; and teachers who kept our schools going. They are being told, “You are fired, and you can only get your job back if you sign a new contract on worse terms and conditions.” That is wrong; it should not be happening in Britain today.

Over the past months, I have visited workplaces all over our country. In Loughborough, I met a man who told me that he was watching Saturday night TV at home with his son when his phone pinged. It was email telling him he would be fired unless he accepted £15,000 off his annual salary.

In the village of Street in Somerset, I met a man at Clarks shoes who told me of his feelings. He has a two-bedroom flat because he is separated from his wife, and his children stay with him every second week. “If I have to sign that contract,” he told me, “I’ll not just lose my home; I’ll lose my family as well.” The man could not then have afforded that property and would have had to live in a bedsit. That is fire and rehire.

In Banbury, at Jacobs Douwe Egberts, one of the 291 workers who were threatened with the sack there told me that her family had given over 100 years’ service to the company. Her father had worked there, she had worked there for 34 years, her husband had worked there and now her son worked there. She felt that all of them had been treated with contempt.

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

The hon. Member is making some very important points and this is a very important debate. He set out right at the start of his speech that he wants the UK to be the “best place to work”, and I agree with that. Does he agree that the UK should also be the best place to start and grow a business, because that is what creates the opportunities for work?

[Barry Gardiner]

I do agree with the hon. Gentleman, and that is why I was very keen to say at the beginning that this is about making Britain the best place to work. It can only be the best place to work if our businesses are thriving, and I believe our businesses can only be thriving if they have a well motivated workforce.

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[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and let me tackle it head on. The survey by Britain Thinks, of 2,321 people, showed that 9% of workers said that in the previous nine months they had either been fired or rehired, or they had been threatened with being fired and rehired. If one were to extrapolate that 9% across the workplace, which I do not seek to do, it would be 3 million workers. Let us say it is half that number—we are still talking about 1.5 million workers. Let us quarter it—it is still three quarters of a million workers in this country. This is a serious problem.

I also want to address the other element of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. I have been on a demonstration picketing with workers outside a Labour council. A Labour council has done this in Tower Hamlets, and shame on it. Wherever this happens, it is wrong. It does not matter whether it is the private sector or the public sector, it is wrong and families are suffering because of it. That is why it is incumbent on us all not to play party politics with this, but to act.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I think we should do something in this area. It is an unacceptable practice, and a good employer would not resort to it. But on quantum, the poll in the ACAS document shows that less than 3% of HR professionals reported this. The figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman are across the entire working population. Most employers are not making redundancies or downsizing. So the quantum is far lower than the numbers he quoted.

[Barry Gardiner]

Again, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I am sure he will also have noticed that that survey was sent out by the institute to 160,000 of its members, and it asked whether those members had ever engaged in fire and rehire, how they had used it, and how they had sacked people in the previous nine months. Does he recall how many people replied to the survey? It is there—

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Two hundred and twenty-five HR professionals.

[Barry Gardiner]

It was circulated to 160,000 members, and 225 wanted to reply. In my view, that says everything about the way this is being used by personnel departments.

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[Barry Gardiner]

May I just remind the hon. Lady that the comment about capitalism was not, in fact, mine but the Leader of the House’s? I understand her fundamental point, and from it I take that both she and I want to see wages in this country rise to an appropriate level so that every person and every family feels they can put a roof over their head and food on the table, and feels secure in their life—although she will have voted one way on Brexit, and I will have no doubt voted the other way, we would both welcome a move towards a society in which that is possible. The Bill is about levelling up and stopping the practice whereby, at the moment, many hundreds of thousands of workers in this country are seeing their wages levelled down, which is why it is so important that we get legislation.

I have set out that there is a problem of morality and economics. How can we fix it? Back in June, when I sat down with the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), he made it clear to me that the Government were “not minded to legislate.” That was even after the ACAS report “Dismissal and re-engagement (fire-and-rehire): a fact-finding exercise” was published, which may appear surprising given that ACAS reported examples of what participants in its survey

“regarded as employers using the crisis opportunistically as a ‘smokescreen’ to diminish workers’ terms and conditions; and the use of fire-and-rehire as a negotiation tactic to undermine or bypass genuine workplace dialogue on change.”

ACAS made it clear in the report that, although the Government were happy for it to outline the findings from such a fact-gathering exercise,

“Acas was not asked to present recommendations to government.”

If not legislation, what? The Minister advised me that the Government are now asking ACAS to recommend how they might strengthen the guidelines to business. I am a believer in guidelines, and good businesses tend to follow them, particularly if they are clear and if other businesses are doing the same. The problem comes when unscrupulous businesses are not adhering to those guidelines and gain a competitive advantage from that non-adherence. There then often follows a race to the bottom in which the good company feels forced into bad practice.

I do not believe that any manager goes into work thinking “I am going to do something noble and fine this morning: I am going to tell my 300 employees that they will be fired unless they accept a pay cut of 20%, even though our company is making record profits.” That is why I believe guidelines are not a solution. Managers at Jacobs Douwe Egberts, the coffee people in Banbury, made record profits during the pandemic, when coffee consumption increased by 40%. While the managers awarded themselves large bonuses, they demanded wage cuts of up to £11,000 from 291 staff. The truth is that guidelines are not going to change the practice of such managers. Only by putting good practice into statute will companies be prevented from bullying their workforce by using the threat of fire and rehire, and only if those tactics are outlawed will good companies not feel the competitive pressure to behave just as badly.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Gentleman highlights a shameful example, and he is right to do so. As the road to hell is paved with good intentions, particularly in terms of legislation, I am interested in his intentions with this Bill. I have watched him talk about the Bill on television a couple of times, and I think he said on Sky yesterday that it does not outlaw fire and rehire but ensures that the right information is provided. Is it his intention that the Bill does not try to ban fire and rehire, because I think it does?

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[Barry Gardiner]

My hon. Friend speaks with such a wealth of experience on these matters and he is, of course, absolutely right. Good businesses need to be able to respond quickly to the pandemic, as the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) suggested, but they also need to maintain the good will of their workforce, to go with workers on that journey and not only to take the immediate measures necessary but restore the benefits in the long term.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on a technical point?