P&O Ferries and Employment Rights

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Christian Wakeford

Monday 21st March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The first thing I want to do is express my solidarity with the 800 seafarers and their families, and pay tribute to the RMT and Nautilus for the swift support that they gave their members, along with the whole of the TUC.

I am pleased that Ministers and Tory Members have said how disgraceful P&O’s behaviour has been, but they have said how unacceptable such practices are on previous occasions. It appears today, from both their words and their body language, that they are embarrassed. Maybe somebody has been saying “Shame on you”. It is almost as if it is more about justifying this disgusting treatment of summarily firing the workforce and justifying why they did not outlaw it five months ago when they had that opportunity.

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

I was a supporter of my hon. Friend’s Bill when he brought it forward, despite being on the Conservative Benches at the time, and I even shared a platform with him at the party conference. We heard from the Secretary of State earlier that ACAS would be bringing forward further guidance, but guidance would not have helped the people from P&O. Does my hon. Friend agree that guidance is not the solution and that we need legislation to prevent this from happening again?

[Barry Gardiner]

I do agree with my hon. Friend. It is clear that nothing currently in the law could have stopped this incident from happening and that, whatever the outcome, 800 families are suffering as a consequence. Had it been clear in statute and had the company known that it could not take advantage in such a way, it would not have done so. It is the Government’s lassitude on this matter that has led to where we are now.

I do not want to engage in recriminations about who said what. Let us try to be positive and think of a way in which we could develop a law in this country that could solve these problems. The first thing, to which the Minister alluded earlier, is the importance of negotiation and the fact that the negotiations that ultimately took place in previous disputes were positive. Let us get it round the right way, so that we have consultation at the beginning of the process and a statutory obligation on the employer to consult, to negotiate and to be transparent. Incidentally, that happens to be in clause 1 of my Bill.

The hon. Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) referred to proposed new section 187B, but she knows very well that this was not about a duty of disclosure on employers that was completely open-ended. No, it was a very specific one. It involved information that would be in accordance with good industrial relations practice that the employer should disclose for the purposes of the consultation and

“without which the appropriate representatives would be to a material extent impeded in carrying on consultation with the employer”.

It was a measured, sensible approach, and if the Government had any concerns about it, they could have been ironed out in Committee, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) said. But the Government were not prepared to do that.

There was also the facility in my Bill to make complaints about the failure to follow good practice. The Bill was all about instantiating good practice and penalising bad practice. That would have meant that where an employer had not followed the rules properly, not obeyed the statute, not consulted or engaged openly with their workforce or not negotiated transparently, a complaint could have been made to the central arbitration committee and ultimately an injunction could have been made to restore the jobs of the people who were fired. That is not about rehire; it is all about fire. The Minister for lassitude whispered in the ear of his colleague the other day that this issue was not about fire and rehire, but those measures would have protected the workers in this situation and the Government now need to act. They should take this opportunity. They have had a rap over the knuckles and they have been embarrassed. Now they must legislate.

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Christian Wakeford

2nd reading
Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I have to say that that is the first time that hon. Gentleman has ever called this hon. Gentleman an honourable gentleman, so my congratulations to you.

I want to pay tribute to hon. Members across the House. The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) has fought as a constituency MP for the workers at Glasgow airport, where workers were facing new contracts that cut their take-home pay by up to 70%. He has long championed this cause, and I pay tribute to him. The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) and the hon. Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford) have all spoken out bravely against employers using this tactic and made sure that it is regarded as a moral issue rather than a party political one. I am grateful to them all.

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for mentioning me. Does he agree that when it comes to an issue such as this, on which we all agree that something needs to be done, not only is it the popular and moral thing to be done, but it is the right thing to be done?

[Barry Gardiner]

Absolutely. I hope that the House will show its true colours and come to an accommodation to ensure that it is not just the right thing to be done but that it is done.

I must also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), who is a dear friend. It might well be said that he has championed the issue of employment rights man and boy, except neither he nor anyone else can remember that far back. He will no doubt make his own excellent contribution, backed up by his technical expertise as an employment solicitor. Finally on this part of my speech, I thank Messrs Price and Torbitt in my team, who have been so helpful in supporting this campaign throughout the past month.

ACAS reported that recent survey that we discussed, carried out by Britain Thinks, which polled 2,231 individuals in England and Wales and recorded that 9% of employees had experienced the threat of fire and rehire in the previous nine months. Workers are vulnerable to the practice in almost every sector. The survey recorded particular patterns of discrimination against young workers between the ages of 18 and 24, workers who self-identified as being from a working-class background, and black and minority ethnic workers, who face the threat of fire and rehire at nearly twice the rate of white workers.

However, it would be wrong to think that fire and rehire is simply a social problem or an issue of morality; it is also an economic problem. Disputes around fire and rehire drag on, sometimes for months. During that time employees are often working to rule or refusing to do overtime. Where the dispute leads to strike action, there can be enormous loss of production. It is estimated that British Gas Centrica lost between £30 million and £40 million in productivity during the dispute. That is revenue that ultimately is lost to the country and to the Exchequer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner]

Let me reassure the hon. Gentleman that we are not skipping down what Hamlet called the “primrose path of dalliance” to hell together. I have no intention in this Bill of banning, and there is nothing in this Bill that would ultimately ban, fire and rehire. There is an important reason for that and I will come on to it in my speech.

[Christian Wakeford]

There was a prime opportunity for a lot of colleagues to learn a bit more about this at the Conservative party conference, where the hon. Gentleman actually joined me on a platform. Does he agree that this policy is not anti-business, but anti bad business leaders? The main reason for that is that it is not banning fire and rehire; it is just saying that it is an absolute last resort and should only be used with that method.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. It is important that we clarify that on both sides of the House. There are other ways of addressing—