Pension Schemes Bill

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

My other point is that there are always ongoing conversations whenever a Bill is produced and goes through its normal passage in this House. In between the various stages—Report et cetera—we have meetings. Ministers say, “We want to see you. We’ll call for you”, and we can ask for meetings. Is that breaking down? Do we have too much legislation, so that we do not have time to do it or are too involved in committees in the House? What is going wrong? Is it partly our fault? We are supposed to scrutinise these Bills and we are not doing it properly if these sorts of problems, which have been so graphically explained by the noble Baroness, are occurring. We have to do something about it, and the responsibility is ours.

[Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab)]

I will support very briefly what my noble friend Lady Hollis said in her introduction of this admirable amendment. We have discussed this during the progress of the Bill through this House, and have made the point on a number of sides that it is necessary that people should be fully informed of what they are doing. It is up to the Government to make sure that those arrangements are available for people to become properly informed of what they are doing. It has to be understood, of course, that people are making decisions about their future and what may happen if they make the wrong decision. It is very necessary that the appropriate choices are made by the people who are facing these alternatives. I therefore hope that this admirable amendment receives the full support of this House.

[Lord Bradley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be brief, because the issues presented by this amendment have been brilliantly articulated by my noble friend Lady Hollis.

Throughout the passage of the Bill we have sought to ensure that consumers’ interests are fully protected, particularly in respect of the guidance that they will receive from the citizens advice bureau or TPAS. But the accuracy of the information for them is wholly dependent on the clarity of government policy. We are concerned that the treatment of pension funds in respect of income-related benefits and social care do not meet this test of clarity. Such clarity is particularly essential here, because the decisions that people make will have a dramatic impact on their future lives. I hope that the Minister in response will be able to give the House the assurances that we are seeking through this amendment so that there is no confusion in the public’s mind and no inconsistency across the country in the guidance that will be given on this incredibly important issue.

I thank the Minister for his letter dated 4 February, which lays out the Government’s position on how they will deal with some of these matters. But I—and, I am sure, my noble friends—remain concerned that, as they say, “the devil is in the detail”, and we have already heard this morning of cases where there has to be clarity and consistency of treatment of individuals in this respect. Clearly, we will continue to look closely at the regulations that follow and the guidance issued in association with them, to ensure that the public understand the implications of the decisions they take in respect of any entitlement to income-related benefits or social care costs.