Pension Schemes Bill

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

My other point is that there are always ongoing conversations whenever a Bill is produced and goes through its normal passage in this House. In between the various stages—Report et cetera—we have meetings. Ministers say, “We want to see you. We’ll call for you”, and we can ask for meetings. Is that breaking down? Do we have too much legislation, so that we do not have time to do it or are too involved in committees in the House? What is going wrong? Is it partly our fault? We are supposed to scrutinise these Bills and we are not doing it properly if these sorts of problems, which have been so graphically explained by the noble Baroness, are occurring. We have to do something about it, and the responsibility is ours.

[Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab)]

I will support very briefly what my noble friend Lady Hollis said in her introduction of this admirable amendment. We have discussed this during the progress of the Bill through this House, and have made the point on a number of sides that it is necessary that people should be fully informed of what they are doing. It is up to the Government to make sure that those arrangements are available for people to become properly informed of what they are doing. It has to be understood, of course, that people are making decisions about their future and what may happen if they make the wrong decision. It is very necessary that the appropriate choices are made by the people who are facing these alternatives. I therefore hope that this admirable amendment receives the full support of this House.

[Lord Bradley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be brief, because the issues presented by this amendment have been brilliantly articulated by my noble friend Lady Hollis.

Throughout the passage of the Bill we have sought to ensure that consumers’ interests are fully protected, particularly in respect of the guidance that they will receive from the citizens advice bureau or TPAS. But the accuracy of the information for them is wholly dependent on the clarity of government policy. We are concerned that the treatment of pension funds in respect of income-related benefits and social care do not meet this test of clarity. Such clarity is particularly essential here, because the decisions that people make will have a dramatic impact on their future lives. I hope that the Minister in response will be able to give the House the assurances that we are seeking through this amendment so that there is no confusion in the public’s mind and no inconsistency across the country in the guidance that will be given on this incredibly important issue.

I thank the Minister for his letter dated 4 February, which lays out the Government’s position on how they will deal with some of these matters. But I—and, I am sure, my noble friends—remain concerned that, as they say, “the devil is in the detail”, and we have already heard this morning of cases where there has to be clarity and consistency of treatment of individuals in this respect. Clearly, we will continue to look closely at the regulations that follow and the guidance issued in association with them, to ensure that the public understand the implications of the decisions they take in respect of any entitlement to income-related benefits or social care costs.

Pension Schemes Bill

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, have some reservations about the guidance arrangements, in two different types of area, which I hope can be put at rest. First, imagine that an individual with a pension of £20,000 goes to get guidance. Is the guidance likely to say, “Go on—pay the tax, take the money and spend it”? The main guidance will be divided between buying an annuity or entering into a draw-down. The pension might be a bit small for the mechanics of a draw-down, so one is likely to be guided towards an annuity. For the present and foreseeable future, we all know that bond yields are artificially low, and that anyone who buys an annuity today will look back in five, seven or I do not know how many years’ time, when bond yields are back to normal, and say, “My God, I got a really bad deal when I bought that annuity. I know that I cannot sue the Government because it was guidance, not advice, but it was pretty bad guidance to suggest that I buy an annuity when what it was based on—mainly bond yields—were artificially low”.

The second thing that worries me is that people will, as it were, be left in the air. Their guidance might sort out whether they would be right to buy an annuity or right to do something else, but let us say that the guidance is, perhaps, that they should leave their money in the pension scheme and draw down only when they want to. They will then need someone to manage those investments. As a result of what I believe to be the very mistaken RDR reforms, most financial advisers are not willing to take on individuals with less than a substantial sum of money. How, therefore, will the individual get from the position of government guidance on what type of product they might buy to selecting a fund manager or a fund, if they are not able to get financial advice? As a result of the contortions that we have got into in financial regulation, people cannot get such advice from the government guidance bodies because the Government cannot give investment advice. I think a lot of people will end up feeling that they are left hanging in mid-air, even if they have gone through a very good guidance process, as to where they should go to choose the right product.

[Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab)]

My Lords, it was very kind of my noble friend on the Front Bench to mention me in his very interesting summary in support of this amendment. This is a Bill that involves a number of risks for the individual. That is one of the reasons why the individual benefiting from it should also have access to very reliable advice. That is what this amendment is all about: ensuring that the Government make quite clear that individuals have a right of access to reliable information. This has to last them for a long time, and it is on a risky basis unless they have proper guidance before they enter into it.

Young People: Alternatives to University

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Thursday 23rd October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab)]

My Lords, I too would like to thank my noble friend for introducing this debate. As every noble Lord has said, it is on a very important subject that is not often discussed this fully. It is a great pity that while many young people would like to go university, they often fail to get there. For poorer families, the cost is far too great. An article published recently in the Times alleged that a child would have to start saving from birth to have enough money to meet the costs of a university education. Of course, those in power over us—Prime Ministers, Chancellors and leading Ministers—have virtually all been to university, a point that is not lost on the young people who want to go. We are an advanced society so we really must arrange for people to have access to training in order to participate and to be able to obtain the sort of jobs they need. A number of speakers in the debate have indicated that there is a shortage of skilled people and we have to do something about that.

Many references have been made during the course of the debate to apprenticeship schemes. I am very glad that these have now been accorded a great deal of eminence and I hope that they will be improved upon. Of course, most of those who talked about them did not feel that they are as effective as they ought to be and that they should be developed. Improvements are being made through the introduction of technical colleges, but obviously a great deal more needs to be done in that direction. I am particularly concerned about the effect on women, a point that has also been made. Many years ago, when I was a member of the Equal Opportunities Commission, I remember that we introduced the WISE campaign, which stood for Women Into Science and Engineering. We had some success with it. We went to talk to schools and parents and we tried to persuade them that the study of engineering and of science generally was an appropriate way to ensure that girls would be trained. We now have women scientists and engineers, and that used not to be the case in the old days. That is the result of the successful campaigns we ran then, and there is no reason why we should not build upon what we achieved.

Many speakers have referred to the trade union movement, which has a long record of assisting people so far as education is concerned. Certainly a number of my parliamentary colleagues owe the fact that they have had a good education to their having won trade union scholarships, in many cases to Ruskin College. But it is not only a question of awarding scholarships; the unions have also been assisting in providing training in other ways. The TUC’s Unionlearn team has already found some success in providing training for those who missed out earlier in life. Many employers respect what the unions have done in this regard and have been willing to assist in ensuring that union members receive proper training. That is an important issue so far as trade union membership is concerned. My own union, Unite, has been deeply involved in pushing for better arrangements for people to be trained in the more advanced industries, in which there is alleged to be a shortage of suitable employees.

I hope that, as a result of our debates today and some of the recommendations that have been made by noble Lords, we are making some progress in a difficult area. We need to involve ourselves in helping young people, who need our help and assistance if they are to participate in training. Our two debates interlock: the first spent a lot of time, quite legitimately, on the whole issue of housing and housing poverty. We have young people who do not have proper housing and live in very crowded circumstances. It is not easy for them to study and to try to get into training schemes. That is all part of the problem that we have been discussing today.

I hope that the Government take seriously some of the suggestions that have been made. We need a framework in which young people can be assisted and trained for the future. It matters to all of us, not only to the young people themselves—it is important to the rest of society. I thank my noble friend for introducing the debate and I hope that the suggestions that have been made by a number of people are seriously considered by the Government.

Economic Prosperity and Employment

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Thursday 18th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Haskel for introducing this debate and for the way in which he did so. Of course, the Government have a major role in generating prosperity and the employment prosperity should promote. The problem is that, as many of us see it, the present Government appear to believe that it all should be left to market forces, even though experience indicates that this is mistaken. We are told that there are “green shoots” and that things are improving, but I have doubts about that. Living standards are continuing to fall. Vital benefits are being cut or frozen. Housing is in crisis, particularly in London. I have said repeatedly in this House that rents are too high and wages are too low.

It is said that employment opportunities are improving. Only a little, it seems to me, and not for young people—or older. Those over 50 have great difficulty getting other employment if they are made redundant. All this indicates that the Government’s policies are not working, and we have yet to feel the effects of the public service cuts due to come onstream in the autumn.

Meanwhile, the Government are proceeding with their policy of cutting back employment rights. Access to tribunals is being made more difficult and will now be charged for. Changes in the law will make it more difficult, if not impossible, for an injured worker to claim compensation. Whistleblowers intent on drawing attention to dangerous situations are to lose some protection. The ridiculous scheme—defeated in this House but endorsed by the Commons—whereby workers can give up all employment rights in return for shares has nevertheless been introduced by the Government, although I think without much success. The Government seem to believe that all this will increase employment opportunities. I do not think so. The Government should understand that an enthusiastic, committed and well paid workforce is a major asset. SMEs have already benefited from a low-paid workforce, and this has not produced an economic revival: quite the contrary.

The role of the unions should not be underestimated. My own union has recently drawn attention to the work being done in the automotive industry, which is currently very successful. There is an industry committee, on which unions participate. The union has drawn attention to the very successful arrangements in Germany where the workforce is involved through workplace committees. Unions are not enemies, although some newspapers insist that this is so. Their contribution in the field of education and training should be encouraged and respected. The TUC programme, Unionlearn, is well known and successful.

Investment, however, is of course the key. There are many areas of the country which were once thriving but where the factories and workshops which once employed the local population no longer exist. As a result, the local economy is stagnant. There is a need for area development. It is now generally agreed by speakers in this debate this afternoon that our economy needs to be rebalanced; we cannot rely just on financial industries, which we have done in the past. There needs to be an investment bank under government direction so that appropriate investment can be made.

None of this will be easy, but current policies are making things worse, not better. Inequalities are becoming wider—a small minority is rich but others are much poorer. It is time to review current policies.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, I have decided to speak in this debate because I feel that many of the problems that we all face stem from the policies on the economy. We all know what the problems are—unemployment, declining living standards, public sector cuts and general feelings of dissatisfaction that became manifest during the recent elections. It is now generally accepted that we need growth and that the economy needs to be rebalanced. The lack of balance is obvious in the growth of the south-east compared with the decline in the Midlands and the north. Areas where once mining, steel and shipbuilding provided often highly skilled employment to the local population are instead now areas of high and continuous unemployment.

My own union, Unite, has frequently drawn attention to the need for government policies to do more to support manufacturing industries. It says that while Britain remains an engineering powerhouse, it is suffering from a crumbling infrastructure, a growing skills shortage and years of neglect from successive Governments, particularly that of the Thatcher Administration. There is concern that manufacturing is not now showing the growth that is required. Unite believes that this is because of subdued domestic demand, particularly in the construction industry. The cutbacks in public expenditure have also had an impact on manufacturing.

The union calls for an active industrial strategy to be developed, similar to that already existing in Germany. There is now apparently an increased interest in the German strategy, with the New Statesman devoting its recent issue to the subject, while today we have had well informed contributions on the same subject from the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, and my noble friend Lord Monks.

Unite also draws attention to the relative success of the automotive industry in the UK, where the Automotive Council, which involves the union, works extensively to promote the industry. It also believes that there should be a strategic investment bank. The Government have of course committed themselves to the establishment of a Green Bank, but a strategic investment bank could provide access to funding for innovative companies, including small businesses. The contribution that unions make to the training of their members is often overlooked. The TUC has always had a skills training programme called Unionlearn, and refers to this in its current statement on the economic situation.

During the previous Session of Parliament we considered two pieces of legislation that one might have thought would have addressed some of these problems: the Growth and Infrastructure Bill and the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill. Both have now been accepted by both Houses, but both contained provisions weakening employment rights, making it more complicated and costly to sue for unfair dismissal, changing legal requirements relative to accidents and illnesses through work and making it more difficult for workers to obtain compensation. Then there was the peculiar provision whereby workers surrender employment rights, fought for by previous generations, in return for shares. I and a number of noble Lords opposed those provisions—unfortunately, without success. The Government appear to believe that a system in which workers are regarded as disposable—hired when needed and sacked without rights when no longer required—will improve the economic situation. I think that they are wrong. The support of the workforce is necessary if companies are to succeed. Will Hutton, the director of the Work Foundation, put it very well when he said that,

“it is only through workforce engagement and commitment that successful innovation can be achieved. Care must be taken to ensure that procedures and processes embody fairness—in performance management, in promotion, in setting bonus targets, and in resolving disputes. In this respect trade unions can be important custodians of good faith processes, and as communication routes that uphold the authenticity and integrity of management actions”.

Of course, trade unions insist on good pay and conditions. One of the problems about the private sector, where union organisation is low, is that the pay is too low as well. The benefits system is actually subsidising employers who pay low wages. That has an effect on the housing market too, where housing benefit has to be provided to ensure that families are not rendered homeless. We have discussed these issues in the House in the past, when I and other noble Lords have said that rents are too high and pay is too low. The TUC is calling for the introduction of the living wage, in the hope that this will lift families out of poverty.

These are all important aspects of the economic situation that we have been experiencing. The austerity measures that have been introduced and are continuing have not helped—indeed, quite the contrary. A determined effort by the Government is needed to introduce measures to stimulate the economy, particularly by assisting the financing of innovative companies in manufacturing and other industries that can contribute to growth.

The measures already taken in regard to apprenticeship training are welcome. These are necessary in light of the unacceptable level of youth unemployment. However, we probably need to go much further, particularly for vulnerable and poorer disadvantaged children. The role of unions in developing such schemes should not be underestimated.

We need to rebalance the economy. We cannot rely on financial services, important as they are, to produce the growth we need. The Government should reconsider their current policies. They need to change direction.

Financial Services Bill

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, I am a bit concerned about the wording of Amendment 27 with which this amendment is grouped. It refers to,

“the ease with which consumers … may wish to use … services, including consumers in areas affected by social or economic deprivation, can access them”.

I am very concerned, as many of us are, with people who are perhaps in a rather vulnerable situation being persuaded into services that are really not appropriate for them. This wording here at least lays that open so it would be possible for consumers who are affected by social or economic deprivation to be persuaded into services which are certainly not available or should not be available for them because they are not really suitable. This particular wording gives that impression and I am not very happy about it.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the question of access to financial services is obviously one that the House has considered very carefully as we have been going through the Bill. We all agree that it is very important that consumers, irrespective of where they live, their income levels, or any other characteristics, should have access to the financial services they need. However, while we have agreed on the principle, we have found it less easy to reach the same consensus on what should happen if the needs of people for access to financial services are not being met.

In debate in Committee, my noble friends Lord Sharkey and Lady Kramer in particular spoke eloquently about the problems caused by a lack of access to basic financial services in deprived communities and by a lack of lending and funding for SMEs in those same communities—a state of affairs that can further inhibit growth. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, offered her support in speaking up for the importance of ensuring access to financial services for everyone. I know this is a subject also very close to the heart of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham and I am delighted to be able to be the first Member of your Lordships’ House to congratulate him from the Dispatch Box on his new appointment.

Financial Services Bill

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, I have felt passionately about financial education for a long number of years and I support the probing amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Flight. I first became interested in the issue in the late 1990s in the aftermath of the personal pensions mis-selling débâcle when many highly educated and sophisticated people were mis-sold products, largely because of the impenetrable nature of the language in the retail product being presented to them and, harking back to some of the issues raised in the previous debate, the less-than- adequate performance of some independent financial advisers.

Since then my concern has become even greater as we have seen more mis-selling scandals, such as payment protection insurance and inappropriate hedging instruments for small businesses against interest rate movements. Added to that, there is constant pressure on people to get involved in financial instruments at very great cost—everything from store cards through to payday loans. There should be a fundamental understanding on the part of people that when they take out something like a payday loan, it is not a printing error when the rate of interest is in four figures. It is there deliberately as a means of making money.

This issue comes up regularly. FSMA looked at it. Every time there is a debate on financial services, financial literacy is raised. It has become motherhood and apple pie. However, a point will come when we start to take this seriously. I was lucky enough to go to a school in an area that had a mutual bank, the Airdrie Savings Bank, which continues to exist as the last surviving mutual savings bank. It provided certain financial education in schools. I have to say that there was probably a subplot because I still have the little silver bank and I still retain a passbook for the Airdrie Savings Bank. I have no doubt that the Royal Bank of Scotland did exactly the same when it did its work in schools. That is laudable, but at the end of the day the issues are now too great to leave it to charitable and well meaning organisations. There is a need now, for the well-being of the citizenry as well as the well-being of our financial services sector, to put financial literacy firmly on the curriculum, and I would hope not just here in England but in Scotland as well. I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Flight.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, I support what my noble friend has just said. For a number of years, I was chair of the ombudsman council of the PIA, which later merged into the FSA. We used to discuss the reports from the ombudsman and one of the things which bothered us enormously was the level of illiteracy in financial services. We began to worry about this and to wonder what we could do about it. Eventually we set up a sort of panel of interested, qualified people who would talk to schools and so on to ensure that we were doing at least something to try to remedy what we saw was an enormous problem with regard to education. Therefore, I very much support what my noble friend has said. She is absolutely right. We did our best then, but we were taken over and I have no idea whether the FSA continued what we had begun. Certainly we wanted to do that and we did it and it was quite popular for quite a long time. I hope that this amendment is taken seriously by the Government because it is a very important issue.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, there are some items in the Queen’s Speech to be welcomed, and others about which many of us will feel concerned. There is at least an acknowledgement that the public’s major concern is about austerity and all that that means for the working people who the Prime Minister now claims to care about. Anyone who has been involved in the recent election campaigns knows that people are worried about job loss, insecurity, wage stagnation, housing and welfare problems: all aspects of the Government’s policy on the economy. There now seems to be a growing opposition, not only in this country but throughout Europe, to austerity programmes and their impact on ordinary families, and an increasing pressure for programmes involving growth. This seems sensible. Dealing with deficits is important, but how to do it if economies are stagnant? Things will only get worse. There is already concern that austerity policies are impacting most heavily on those least able to cope.

Recent unemployment figures show that those impacts are highest in the north-east and the Midlands, where the decline in manufacturing industry, about which my own union Unite has campaigned for many years, has left many areas with no job prospects, even for skilled people. Many of us believe that this decline was first started by a previous Conservative Administration way back in the 1980s. In certain areas, public sector employment made up for these changes, but now, with present government cuts, declines in public sector employment will add to that unemployment, much of it among women and often where no alternative work exists. I am glad that at last the apprenticeship schemes are being reinstituted. This should at least assist where there are large numbers of unemployed young people. However, my noble friend Lord Young made a spirited plea for there to be far more done in that direction. I hope that his recommendations will be taken seriously.

For all these reasons, the Government need a rethink. We need, of course, to go for growth. There is to be an enterprise Bill, but the Government are going the wrong way about it. Apparently, it is felt that removing employment rights from employees will result in more jobs. Long-standing employment rights for workers are to be removed. This will add to the sense of insecurity that already exists. Why should it be made easier for employers to sack workers? So that they can employ cheaper ones? Many of us have fought for years for workers to be treated decently and not like serfs. We will not accept lightly a change in government policy. Why should it be deemed necessary to provide more assistance to low-paying employers? We already have low pay in this country. The Government know this. Their welfare policies attempt to subsidise low pay through the welfare system to make sure that jobseekers are better off in work than on benefits. In other words, the taxpayer already subsidises employers who pay low wages.

Further changes to the law on arbitration would make it more difficult for a worker who claims unfair dismissal to make a claim. Charges are to be made before he or she can get to a tribunal. Then the tribunal itself will consist not of lay people representing each side of industry or commerce but of only a judge sitting alone. It is a more legal process but, of course, there will be no legal assistance.

My advice to employees is to join your union. You are going to need all the protection you can get. The Government, of course, like to act as though unions do not exist. Unions are mentioned only in the context of a possible strike—and then, of course, the strike is all the workers’ fault. There is now talk of making strikes more difficult, when we already have legislation that requires ballots, and probably tougher legislation than exists in other developed countries. Many government supporters—I emphasise “supporters”, not necessarily the Government—clearly think that workers should put up and shut up. That really does seem unlikely to me.

Unions play an enormous role in other areas, which is hardly ever mentioned. Unionlearn, the education section of the TUC, helps 230,000 working people back into education every year. Through its support for Ruskin College, Oxford, it has assisted many to acquire degrees. Many members of your Lordships’ House have benefited from further education at Ruskin College. Unions play a vital role in health and safety provision in the workplace through their training of safety representatives and in other ways. Despite this, the Government do their best to discourage this traditional and important organisation of the employees themselves.

I hope that the recent election results will cause the Government to re-examine their policies. If they do not do so, more people are likely to suffer as a result of economic policies that have already begun to impact unfairly on employment, welfare and other matters of great concern to everyone.

During the previous Session in this House, every time we sought to deal with the problems caused by the cuts we were told by government spokespersons that “there is no alternative”. I and many others do not accept that, and many people who are worried about declining living standards do not accept it either. We need to go for growth. We need policies—not words, but policies—for growth. The Queen’s Speech does not have such policies.

Banking: Northern Rock

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their plans for the future of Northern Rock, in view of its status as a major employer and provider of financial services in the North-East of England.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, on 15 June my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that a sales process for Northern Rock should commence, following a recommendation from UK Financial Investments. Prospective acquirers will be asked to provide a view on the impact of their acquisition on competition. UKFI also expects prospective acquirers to lay out their plans for the company’s headquarters and branches.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I thank the Minister for that response. Since tabling the Question, I have been visited in this House by representatives of the workforce, whose chairman and organiser came to see me. They are still very worried people, although they appreciate the sympathetic response that the Minister gave on 16 June when this question was originally raised. On the other hand, they are very concerned because of the employment situation there and very keen on mutualisation, which they believe would be much better from the point of view of employment and as far as the community is concerned. Would the Government give serious consideration to that?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government, through UKFI, will consider all options for the disposal process, including stand-alone remutualisation. However, it is important to recognise that the Chancellor believes that a sales process is most likely to generate the best value for the taxpayer, and that is why that is being explored as the lead option. Of course, the Government are committed to promoting mutuals and we very much welcome bids from mutuals as part of the sales process that is to start.

Regulatory and Banking Reform

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Kramer for her general support for what we are doing and her recognition of how far the Government have already gone in pushing forward with the structural and regulatory reforms. On the micro/macro link, I refer noble Lords to the full, and very interesting, remarks by the Governor last night at the Mansion House because he talked with great coherence and good sense about what the failure of the previous regulatory regime was, which was to collect a huge amount of detailed data that it was unable to analyse to draw out the conclusions.

However, in the new world, experienced bank supervisors are needed who are able to analyse and draw out the picture, which was never difficult—whether it was on securitisation or on a lot of other matters or funding models—before the crisis. There should be meaningful discussions with the banks in terms of the individual banks that they supervise about what this translates to in terms of the exposure of the individual bank’s business model. If my noble friend were to read the Governor’s full remarks, she would see that the Bank is absolutely where she would like it to be on its thinking on this. I got no sense of swing-back in it.

On ownership of the banks, we are well aware of the proposals that have come in, including that from Stephen Williams on mass retail participation. We and UKFI are actively considering mass retail participation as we think ahead to returning the banks into the private sector, which of course is not the same thing. A subset of it would be distributing the banks’ shares for free or on some other basis, which raises value-for-money considerations and quite a lot of technical market considerations. But I can reassure my noble friend that all these proposals will be given due consideration.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, I have here a letter from Unite, the union representing the workforce at Northern Rock. As can well be imagined, the workforce is extremely concerned about its future. It points out that at its height Northern Rock had 6,500 employees. It also ran the Northern Rock Foundation with £200 million of investment in the area. Those in the workforce are concerned not only about their own jobs but about the general impact on the situation in the north-east, where there is a very high level of unemployment and where people have great difficulty in getting alternative work. In any situation in regard to restructurings and so on, it should be a major concern for the Government to ensure that whatever decisions are taken do not worsen the unemployment situation in the area. Everything possible should be done to ensure that employment is kept at a reasonable level. As regards Northern Rock, that does not seem to be the situation.

I am very glad that my noble friend on the Front Bench raised mutualisation because it seemed to me that that is a way in which it might be possible to maintain a much higher level of employment in the area. It is very important to bear in mind concern not just about the financial stability, important though that is, but about what happens to employment in the area and the general standing in the area of not only the financial situation but the economic situation generally.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, because these considerations will be ones which prospective bidders for Northern Rock will be asked to address in their bids. Of course, the Government are very mindful of the situation in the north-east and its dependence on the public sector in particular. I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Bates is not here today because I am always refreshed by his reminder to the House that a lot of vibrant new business is being generated in the north-east. But I very much recognise, as do the Government, the problems, and the bidders will be asked to make a lot of these things clear when they come forward with proposals.