Housing: Permitted Development Rights

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Wednesday 18th December 2024

(5 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

My Lords, the Government’s aim in the delivery of the 1.5 million homes is to deliver good quality, well-designed, sustainable homes and places that everyone can be proud of. I have already met both the TCPA and the National Housing Federation, which have been campaigning on this. I am very aware of some of the poor practice that has occurred, and we will continue to advocate for the principles of good design, as set out in the National Design Guide and the National Model Design Code. As I say, we keep permitted development under review.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it must make sense to use redundant buildings to provide good-quality accommodation for those in need, but is there not a loophole in the current fire safety regulations? These apply when a commercial building is converted into flats but not when industrial buildings or storage units are. Should we not use the Renters’ Rights Bill to close this loophole?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

My Lords, the Planning Gateway One fire safety requirements apply to applications for planning permission for relevant buildings. To apply some of the principles to permitted development, there was a prior approval on fire safety impacts in 2021 that applies to class MA: commercial, business and services to residential. It is not, however, as detailed as the requirements for a planning application. For example, it does not require the completion of a fire safety form. We need to continue to look at these issues and to make sure that permitted development is completely safe from fire.

Building Homes

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Tuesday 17th December 2024

(6 days, 20 hours ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I thank the noble Lord for his question. We have an Oral Question on exactly the same topic tomorrow, when I am sure I will be able to give a fuller answer.

The noble Lord is quite right. As I come from a new town, I recognise the benefit of not just designing the homes but planning the areas where they are to be situated. They should, of course, be sustainable, healthy and have all the infrastructure that everybody needs. The Government are committed to taking steps to ensure that we not only build more homes but that they are high quality, well designed and sustainable. That is why we have made changes to the NPPF to make clear the importance of achieving well-designed places, and how this can be achieved holistically through local design policies, design codes and guidance. We will be pushing this forward further in the new year.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, that there is much in the Statement to be welcomed. It is right that the Government should have a target of 1.5 million, although it is an ambitious one. If any Government are to hit a national target, they must have the levers through setting mandatory targets for local authorities. This was my Government’s policy until 2022. Of course, I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, that these targets must be right. I welcome the recognition that, without some erosion of the green belt, we are not going to get anywhere near the target.

Where I have some difficulty with the Statement is reading it in conjunction with the plans for devolution. Under the Statement which the noble Baroness has repeated, the basic unit is the local plan, and all the districts have to get ahead with theirs. Under the devolution White Paper, they must find partners—other districts—in order to reach the 500,000 target; then, presumably, there will have to be a new district plan for that. At the same time, the Government want to impose mayors everywhere. We read on page 48 that the mayors will be responsible for strategic planning and housing growth. Later on, it says that mayors will have

“an increasingly central role in housing delivery.”

Then, of course, the mayor can set up a development corporation and override the objections of any district. On top of this, the Government can set up a new town corporation. It is not absolutely clear to me how all the moving parts of the planning system fit together.

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

There are clear links between the new National Planning Policy Framework and the English devolution programme. The English Devolution White Paper, which was published yesterday, is a consultation document, and we will be taking views on it as time goes on. The noble Lord, Lord Young, is right to say that there is a proposal in that White Paper for mayors to have strategic spatial planning powers. Across those sub-regional areas—we are talking about areas with a population of around 1.5 million—they will be looking at transport, infra- structure, probably housing numbers across the whole area, and other issues that are strategic in nature.

I do not believe that this undermines in any way the status of local plans. Where there is local government reorganisation, there will be some consolidation of plans to make this work at the level of the new councils. The strength of the local plan will be retained in determining where the allocations in the strategic spatial plan will be located. I do not think the intention of spatial planning is to undermine local plans. I remember the days of regional planning; we are not going back to that, because people felt it was too big a scale. It makes a lot of sense to do this at sub-regional level. When planning an economy, infrastructure and housing growth, you start at sub-regional level and then the local plans fit in with that.

Planning Committees: Reform

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Thursday 12th December 2024

(1 week, 4 days ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I agree with the noble Baroness that the voice of local people and local councillors in the planning process is absolutely vital. There is no intention to change the consultation rules on planning applications. Representations will be considered by any decision-maker in the process. The best way for councillors and communities to engage in the development proposed for their areas is through the local plan process, which will be agreed by the council. Where a controversial development is proposed that has not been planned for, councillors will continue to play a key role in representing the voice of their communities. There will be no change to the ability of local people to inform and make their views known about planning applications; this is about speeding up the decision-making.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, is not one of the problems with the planning system that a planning application is made which is in clear conformity with the local plan, the planning officers recommend approval but, because it is unpopular locally, the planning committee turn it down in order for the Secretary of State to take the blame? That just wastes a lot of time. Will the proposals that are being considered deal with that?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

The noble Lord is quite right to pick up this point. It is the intention that, where applications are in conformity with the local plan, a speedy decision should be taken. The whole point of these reforms is intended to make that much easier, without removing the ability of local councillors and communities to make their views known on it. This is a working paper for discussion with the sector, and we hope that the sector will put its views forward. The intention is to speed up the process, not to have planning applications stuck in the system.

New Homes

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Wednesday 11th December 2024

(1 week, 5 days ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, mentioned a shortage of 251,000 skilled construction workers if the Government are to hit their target. Modern methods of construction have the potential to help meet that shortage and drive up productivity, but have had a mixed reception in this country because of a lack of sustained demand. As many of the 1.5 million houses will come from the public sector, can the Government use their purchasing power to relaunch modern methods of construction with a sustainable level of demand, to meet the productivity requirement and give the country the homes it needs?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity to say that I went to visit British Offsite with Weston Homes in Braintree earlier this week. What a fantastic example of British innovation, using recycled steel to build MMC products. MMC is an important opportunity to improve productivity in the construction sector, to deliver quickly the very high-quality energy-efficient homes we need, and to create new and diverse jobs. We are working to address the strategic barriers to the further uptake of MMC, including improved supply chain confidence, clarity for warranty and insurance markets, and planning reform. We will say more about that in the long-term housing strategy next year.

Housebuilding: Regional Mayors

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Thursday 5th December 2024

(2 weeks, 4 days ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- Hansard - -

The full details will be published in the English devolution White Paper, but the intention is that mayors will have some strategic powers over major infrastructure in their areas and land use planning for housing. Noble Lords will see the details in the English devolution White Paper, which will be out shortly.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Government are planning a new generation of new towns to help achieve their targets, at the same time as they are planning to devolve more powers to regional mayors, as we have heard. The location of these new towns will be decided by central government and the new homes will be delivered by development corporations run by central government. Is there not some tension between their policies on new towns and on regional mayors, about which we heard a few moments ago?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- Hansard - -

As a new town girl, I absolutely celebrate the drive for new new towns. I know that Sir Michael Lyons, who is in charge of the task force for new towns, is working hand in glove with mayors and combined authorities to deliver this new generation of new towns. He will undertake significant consultation with them about both planning and location. The mayoral strategic development strategy will be part of this process as well. There is no conflict between new towns and devolution; they work very well together.

Planning Reforms: Net-zero Carbon Emissions

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Tuesday 3rd December 2024

(2 weeks, 6 days ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I thank my noble friend for his question. I agree with both him and Nye Bevan: this is a very important issue, and we need to set out how we support the transition to a low-carbon future in a changing climate. The National Planning Policy Framework will set that out, including the ways that both shaping places and building homes can contribute to radical reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and support renewable and low-carbon energy and associated infrastructure. The place-making aspect is very important. As someone from a new town, I have seen the benefit of good place-making. Of course, when my town was built, the idea of net zero was not on the scene, but we now need to take that into account too. We have consulted widely on the future homes standard, and we are currently considering further representations on solar. As I said, we will publish the NPPF before Christmas and the future homes standard early in the new year.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as the noble Baroness just said, the Government will publish their conclusions on the NPPF by the end of this month. The consultation document suggested important new policies on housing targets, the grey belt, solar energy and wind farms. Will the House have an opportunity to debate the Government’s conclusions?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I thank the noble Lord for his contribution to all the discussion on this issue during the passage of the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill. The NPPF will be published before Christmas and there will be an Oral Statement to both Houses, so there will be a chance to question that Statement then. I will take back his point about a debate on this subject, but of course, any noble Lord is able to submit any topic for debate, as we know.

Cladding Remediation

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Monday 25th November 2024

(4 weeks ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress has been made on remediating flats with dangerous cladding.

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Baroness Taylor of Stevenage) (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

My Lords, I wish the noble Lord better—I know he is not feeling so great today. The pace of remediation has been far too slow, with only 50% of identified buildings beginning or completing works, and just 29% fully remediated. This has caused untold distress and expense for all those concerned. Further strong measures will be detailed in the forthcoming remediation acceleration plan. As set out by the Prime Minister, we are willing to legally require those responsible to assess their buildings and promptly enter remediation schemes. We will bring the full power of government to bear on this task.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. In the debate on Grenfell on Friday, the Minister’s colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Khan, said:

“Yesterday the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government published its monthly remediation statistics. They show that, of the 4,834 residential buildings 11 metres and over in height with unsafe cladding that the department is monitoring … 50% … have still not started remediation”.—[Official Report, 22/11/24; col. 431.]


That is 250,000 families living in buildings that are not safe, in flats which they cannot sell, and who are confronted with high insurance premiums and service charges; and some of them are also confronted with unlimited remediation costs.

None of these leaseholders are responsible in any way for the difficulties they find themselves in. The NAO has now said that it may take until 2037—20 years after the Grenfell fire—for all the dangerous cladding to be put right, and we still have not identified all the dangerous buildings. I appreciate that the Minister has come to this relatively recently, but does she accept that if we do not get a grip on it, it will be the next major national scandal?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

My Lords, I am very glad to say that we now have a Government, and a Deputy Prime Minister who is responsible for this area, who take this incredibly seriously. We will soon be publishing a remediation acceleration plan, which outlines the specific measures we are going to take to increase the pace of remediation, to find all the at-risk buildings quicker and to ensure that the residents at the heart of this terrible issue are supported in the process. There is no longer any excuse for those responsible failing to fix dangerous cladding on their buildings. The message is clear: use the routes we have created to get buildings fixed, and get on with the job.

The Deputy Prime Minister recently held a national roundtable with mayors, regulators and national building safety bodies to press home the urgency of this work, and most developers have now signed up now to the plan that she set out. But please be assured that we will not hesitate to use enforcement measures, and we have provided local authorities with funding to undertake the enforcement necessary.

Council Tax

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Tuesday 19th November 2024

(1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. My honourable friend Minister McMahon is very clear that we need to set up a fairer funding settlement for local government. It is our choice to do it this way, rather than by a complicated and time-consuming reform of council tax. In this year’s funding settlement, the noble Lord will hear news about reshaping the way that funding is distributed, and there will be further news on it in the spending review next year.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, further to the questions posed by the noble Lords, Lord Clarke and Lord Tyrie, if the Government are not prepared to do a wholesale revaluation, and I understand why, could they not at least introduce two new higher bands of council tax to produce more revenue for social care?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- Hansard - -

The noble Lord has made this point in the House before. It is a good point; it needs to be considered alongside further reform of council tax. That is not our priority at the moment, but when it comes to be done, I am sure that his point will be taken on board.

Gypsy and Traveller Communities: Accommodation

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Wednesday 6th November 2024

(1 month, 2 weeks ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, if Gypsies and Travellers are not to camp illegally then, of course, authorised sites must be provided by local councils. After legislation was introduced some 50 years ago, there was a count of how many Traveller and Gypsy caravans there were in England, and the answer was 8,045. There are now 20,000 authorised sites, but 25,000 Traveller and Gypsy caravans. What is behind this increased demand for a nomadic Gypsy and Traveller lifestyle?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

The noble Lord will know that we face the most acute housing crisis this country has ever had. I cannot help but feel that the issue of further caravan provision is partly to do with that. However, there is a difference between that and the culturally specific provision that needs to be made. I cannot answer directly his question about the numbers, but there may be some further insight in the department. I will ask that question and write to him if there is more information.

Social Housebuilding

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Monday 21st October 2024

(2 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

My Lords, there are multiple reasons why properties may be empty, but it is important that we bring as many homes as possible into use. Councils are being given greater powers to charge additional council tax for empty properties, and I know that they will be looking very carefully at the stock of housing to make sure that it is brought into use as quickly as possible. We are also looking at things such as compulsory purchase order powers and so on. Councils already have those but it is very important that we give councils as many tools in their armoury as possible to prevent houses falling into dereliction or simply being left empty because they have been bought as investments and are not let out or used.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Minister said a few moments ago that she could not anticipate the Budget Statement, but did not the Sunday Times do that yesterday, with an authoritative leak that local authorities are to spend £1 billion more on council houses? I welcome that, but how confident is she that there is enough capacity in the construction workforce to respond to that demand?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

The noble Lord makes an important point. I will not comment on leaks, to the Sunday Times or anywhere else, but I have been talking extensively with the development industry about skills in that area, not just for traditional methods of construction but to deal with modern methods of construction and the whole range of new skills that we will need to fit properties to make sure that they are net zero. We are looking right across the board at that and working with the construction industry to see what needs to be done to help it develop the level of skills that we know we are going to need.

Lease Extension Policies for Residential Properties

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Tuesday 30th July 2024

(4 months, 3 weeks ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I thank my noble friend for his championing of Crown leaseholders and the Scilly Isles, and for this offer to visit. You do not have to be a Foreign Office Minister to go to beautiful and exotic places. The undertaking confirms that the Crown will act by analogy, but it is well established that Acts of Parliament for England and Wales do not bind the Crown unless the Act expressly states that this is the case or does so by necessary implication. Instructing the Duke of Cornwall is probably a bit beyond my ministerial powers. The undertaking for the Act delivers similar improvements to those that leaseholders would have if the Leasehold and Reform Act 2024 were to bind the Crown directly. The difference is therefore largely a matter of delivery. Binding the Crown to the Act’s provisions is therefore felt to be unnecessary.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

But does the Minister remember the debate on an amendment to the then leasehold Bill in my name on this very subject? Although as she said, in a nutshell, the Crown Estate is not bound by the law on enfranchisement, it voluntarily agreed 30 years ago, when I was the responsible Minister, to abide by its provisions. It has broadly done so in respect of freeholds that it originally owned, but it is not doing so in respect of freeholds that it acquires by an obscure process known as escheat. I believe this is contrary to the agreement that I reached with it 30 years ago, so will the Minister agree to support my amendment to the Crown Estates Bill to close this loophole?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

My Lords, as the noble Lord says, when property becomes ownerless, the land and buildings escheat to the Crown. That includes the Crown Estate and the royal duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall. If a purchaser is interested, the Crown can sell it so it goes back into private ownership, or the leaseholders are able to collectively purchase the freehold from the Crown. The Government recognise very much that when a freehold becomes ownerless it causes significant problems for leaseholders, but ownerless goods and escheat are complex areas of law, as I have discovered since I heard the noble Lord’s original discussion on this, and need to be considered very carefully. The Law Commission has flagged ownerless land as a possible project for inclusion in its 14th programme of law reform; I think we will be very interested to see what comes out of that review.

Building Homes

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Tuesday 30th July 2024

(4 months, 3 weeks ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, there is a lot to welcome in what the noble Baroness has said. I welcome the reintroduction of housing targets, unwisely abandoned by my party 18 months ago. I welcome the flexibility on RTB; receipts for streamlined planning application; cost recovery on planning application; and the long-term housing strategy, on which I hope the Minister will consult widely, particularly with the recent Church document.

On neutrality, what the Minister sounds as if she wants to do is very much like what she voted down last September. Labour said in its manifesto that it would

“implement solutions to unlock the building of homes affected by nutrient neutrality”.

We await that, but the key question, and the missing element in this, is resources. We all want to do what the Minister has said, but her department is unprotected. The forecast is for a 1.6% to a 2.9% reduction every year for the next three years. What she has announced is going to cost a lot of money. I welcome a reinvigorated council house programme. She wants more affordable houses and fewer houses for sale, and within affordable housing she wants more social houses on social rents. That is going to cost. How confident is she that she has the resources? When she goes to the Chancellor, might not she say what she said yesterday? She said that

“if we cannot afford it, we cannot do it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/7/24; col. 1036.]

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I thank the noble Lord for his comments and question. The point is that, without growing the economy, as we need to do, we will not be able to afford any of the public services that we need. That is the first priority of this Government. But we have an immediate housing crisis, so we will do what we can to solve it now, and develop things further as we begin to create the economic growth we need to solve it. But it is not just a problem of government funding; we need to create that affordable housing. The noble Lord will be as aware as I am that it has been more and more difficult to deliver the social and affordable housing that we need through things like Section 106 agreements and other forms of planning gain, so we will need to assist with that as well. But it is a priority that we tackle the homelessness crisis now and we start on the journey of improving the housing supply, because that is the only long-term way to solve the housing crisis in this country. It will take some time to develop the economic background to do that fully, but we can make a start right now.

Spending Commitments to Local Councils

Debate between Baroness Taylor of Stevenage and Lord Young of Cookham
Monday 22nd July 2024

(5 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- Hansard - -

My Lords, neither I nor this Government are under any illusion about the scale of the pressures that local authorities are facing. Successive years of underfunding and increasing demand for services have left councils experiencing significant budget pressures and vulnerable to shocks, impacting the services that they provide to local people—these are key services, as the noble Lord set out. These will all have to be considered as part of the next spending review and I am sure that key adult care and children’s services will be very high on the list. I will look at the report with great interest.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her post. Further to the question about spending commitments, can she confirm that the firm commitment in the Labour manifesto,

“Labour will not increase taxes on working people”,


applies to council tax?

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
- Hansard - -

I thank the noble Lord for his question. Council tax increases, of course, are ultimately decided by local authorities, but the Government are committed to keeping taxes on working people and households as low as possible. We will carefully consider the impact on councils and taxpayers before making any decisions on taxes. Decisions on referendum principles will be part of the next spending review process and of course we will seek the views of local government before we take any decisions on those.