European Council

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating that Statement, although I think it poses more questions than it answers. In the light of the comments made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie—I see he has now left the Chamber—even more questions have been raised.

First, I want to express our horror at the appalling, evil attack on Istanbul airport last night. Yet again, we are shocked by the hatred that leads to such vicious, indiscriminate violence and murder. Our thoughts are with all those who have been affected, because such horror will never leave them.

Turning to the detail of the Statement, although it includes other issues, clearly, the one that affects us most is that of our leaving the EU. Nevertheless, I noted the comments on the agreement made with Turkey in March. I hope that the Prime Minister, in discussing that agreement, raised the issue of the shocking conditions in the camps in which refugees are being held in Turkey. Did he raise that issue, and if so what response did he receive?

What this Statement reinforces is the massive uncertainty that our country faces. It is clear that the first enemy of our stability and security as a nation is that uncertainty, which has many different forms. There is economic uncertainty for businesses large and small and for consumers. There is uncertainty about who will be the next Prime Minister and whether another general election is looming. There is uncertainty about the Brexit negotiations. At the same time there is uncertainty, now increased, for many local communities where those who do not look or sound British enough are now feeling very vulnerable.

I was going to say that at no point should we forget the uncertainty of British citizens living across Europe, but from the comments just made in Questions by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, it appears that they are to be some kind of negotiating tool in discussions on whether EU citizens living and working in this country are to be allowed to remain. The degree of uncertainty that that will cause in those communities across the country is shocking. Given that negotiations could go on for years, we will have people living or working in this country who do not know what their future holds. We need an explanation or clarification from the Government as a matter of urgency.

The Prime Minister referred in the Statement to estimates of a slowdown in eurozone economic growth of between 0.3% and 0.5%, caused largely by a predicted slowdown in the UK economy because of our trade with the EU. If that is the predicted slowdown for the eurozone, what is the predicted slowdown for the UK economy? If the EU is able to predict such a slowdown across the whole eurozone, I am sure the Government have considered it and made predictions. Can the noble Baroness comment on the report in the business section of today’s Daily Telegraph—not my normal reading material, I confess—that Vodafone and easyJet are now considering moving their headquarters out of the UK, with thousands of jobs leaving these shores, and that Visa could also relocate hundreds of jobs to EU countries? The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, laughs and suggests that I read the Daily Mirror. I can tell him that I do read the Daily Mirror and I commend to him an article from last Friday by the historian Dan Snow about our historic links with Europe and the dangers now presented to this country by this Prime Minister. On the question of jobs, rather than waiting for a new Prime Minister, can the noble Baroness tell me what action the Government are taking today to protect jobs here in the UK?

I welcome the section in the Statement about our relationship with our European partners and its importance over so many years; it is part of our history and part of their history. We should never forget the tremendous contribution of our European allies in the Second World War, particularly in the Battle of Britain, when the role of both Polish and Czechoslovakian aircrew was critical. Perhaps I may tell the noble Baroness about men such as Tony Liskutin. He was a true hero. He first fought with the Czech air force and then with the French. He then joined the RAF to fight on D-day—subsequently teaching our own noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, to fly. However, today, their descendants and families are facing despicable attacks here in the UK. The Prime Minister said in his Statement:

“We are a proud, multi-faith, multi-ethnic society”,

and predicted that,

“we will stay that way”.

I say to the noble Baroness and to the Government that just saying something does not make it happen. You have to do more than that. So, again, rather than just waiting for a new Prime Minister, what practical steps are the Government taking today, and have Ministers discussed this wave of increased attacks?

In the section of the Statement headed “Next Steps”, the Prime Minister said:

“First, there was a … reassurance that until Britain leaves, we are a full member. That means that we are entitled to all the benefits of membership and full participation until the point at which we leave”.

I have to tell the noble Baroness that it does not feel like that. If that is the case, why was the Prime Minister not allowed to attend the most crucial session for the UK in which issues relating to the Brexit vote were discussed? Is the noble Baroness now able to answer two questions that she was unable to answer on Monday? Now that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, has resigned as the EU Commissioner for financial stability and services, when will he be replaced and can she provide an assurance that a new British commissioner will be appointed? Furthermore, if we are still entitled to full membership—as the Prime Minister was assured—is she confident that the UK will still hold next year’s EU presidency? Can she update us on that situation since Monday?

As a nation, we have been able to hold our heads high. We had a European and international outlook on our role in the world and the influence we could bring to bear for the greater good. However, today, not only do we face profound economic change but our long-held cultural and social cohesion faces enormous challenges and risks. We all have friends and neighbours who today feel more vulnerable. The only way we can deal with this is to unite around that common purpose of decency and tolerance. As I said on Monday, at times like this we have to rise to the challenge to ensure that what unites us is bigger, better and stronger than what divides us. That is the only way we can face and tackle these challenges.

The noble Baroness will understand that these risks and challenges can only be increased by uncertainty. I deeply regret that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, in his answers today, has increased that uncertainty. I therefore hope that the noble Baroness will today be able to address these questions and tell us when the Government will clarify the comments made by the noble and learned Lord.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement. I share the outrage expressed about the terrorist atrocity perpetrated in Istanbul yesterday. On behalf of these Benches, I offer condolences to the bereaved and say that our thoughts are very much with those suffering injury.

I do not intend to rehearse the sentiments I expressed on behalf of these Benches on Monday—people know the position of my party on the referendum and its result, which we respect—but the Prime Minister, I am sure, had a very difficult task at the Council yesterday. The result of the referendum was not what he had campaigned for and I am sure he would not be human if he did not feel some tinge of discomfort when he walked out the door, knowing that people were going to talk about him as soon as the door was closed. However, I suspect that whatever difficulties he had will pale into insignificance compared with the difficulty our next Prime Minister, whoever that may be, will have when he attends meetings to discuss Brexit.

Outcome of the EU Referendum

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement and for her additional comments at the end. They are welcome and concur with our own views.

These past few days have been the most difficult and uncertain that we have faced for more than a generation. Despite the massive turnout, whatever one’s views on the referendum, there can be no pride or joy in a result that has divided this country across regions, the age divide and ethnicity, and in so many other ways. With such a narrow result, we must find a way to work together.

During the campaign we were shocked and devastated that our much-loved and highly regarded Member of Parliament Jo Cox was murdered by a man who later gave his name as “Death to traitors, Britain first”. There can be no pride in a campaign that saw political debate sink to a new low.

The leave campaign told us that £350 million a day was being sent to Europe that would be available for the NHS. Within hours of the result that was being retracted as a “mistake”. However, it was never true and is not the only promise now being denied.

We have to understand why concerns are raised about immigration. However, throughout the campaign, the way in which immigration and asylum seekers were demonised to persuade people to vote leave was utterly shameful. I welcome the fact that Nigel Farage’s poster of fleeing Syrian refugees was condemned across the political spectrum and I welcome the comments in the Statement on hate crime.

However, we have to look to ourselves. Is there anything in our words and actions that could have led us to the position where anyone would consider that such a poster was acceptable and legitimate campaigning? When the Prime Minister referred in Parliament to migrants as a “swarm”, did he consider beforehand the possible consequences? During the London mayoral campaign, when Theresa May and Michael Gove spoke of security and terrorism, and then attacked Sadiq Khan as a risk, did they ever consider that such comments were reasonable and responsible?

I concur with the noble Baroness’s comments and welcome them. As she said, we are all dismayed at the reports over the last few days of targeted attacks on a Polish community and protests outside mosques. There has been an increase in casual and deeply unpleasant racism. We have heard of schoolchildren saying that they are worried about their future and, perhaps the lowest of the low, people wearing t-shirts with slogans such as “We won. Go home”. That is the price we are now paying for the tone of the political debate over the past few months.

We need to heal our country and our politics. We need to encourage and provide hope, not hate, but that will not be easy. Our country is desperate for the political leadership that is so sadly lacking at present. The Prime Minister, who said he would see us through the negotiations, is resigning, the Chancellor was invisible for days, and we face three more months of Tory party internal warfare before there is a leader who will even attempt to deal seriously with this crisis. That is shameful. I am not making a cheap party-political point; there are serious issues here.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Wait and see, because I do not absolve my party leadership from this either. There is a serious issue about the quality of political leadership in our country as a whole. My party is also dealing with internal political problems, largely due to fallout from this result, and our country is crying out for strong, decent, decisive, caring and competent leadership from both Government and Opposition. Our country is entitled to demand such leadership from us at such a challenging time.

So what can we do? Individually and as a House as a whole, we have a responsibility. I believe—the noble Baroness emphasised this point as well—that we have the expertise, judgment and experience in this House to assist and lead in finding a way through. The role of your Lordships’ House in working through the referendum decision and in examining the detail will be essential. As we have already shown, the tone in which we conduct our debates and our deliberations must stay as it is, and we should show the way in being measured and honest.

Our excellent European Union Committee, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has already considered and reported on the process and difficulties of withdrawal, referred to by Sir David Edward, a leading—or probably the leading—expert in EU law as the,

“long-term ghastliness of the legal complications”,

which he described as “unimaginable”. However, we have to imagine them and to work through them.

There are many questions not yet answered and many may not have even been considered, so I shall ask the noble Baroness just three which I think are the most urgent. Today, we are debating the Investigatory Powers Bill. Obviously, the practical implications of such legislation are linked to our co-operation with other EU countries. Given that we shall at some point disengage and have to create a new, separate framework for those countries, what consideration has been given to this and are a rethink and further consideration required?

Secondly, the legislative programme cannot just be business as usual. Paragraph 67 of the EU Committee report states that the Government would need to enact in law everything that they wanted to keep in law which had come from treaties or a directive. Clearly, this cannot be done overnight, but our relationship with the EU is deteriorating by the hour and there is real urgency here. Have the Government considered a timescale for such legislation and will it mean a new Queen’s Speech, so that the legislative programme can be withdrawn?

Thirdly, the Statement referred to the devolved Administrations, but there was more about the role of the Civil Service than about the role of Parliament. Parliamentary oversight of the negotiations will be essential and, clearly, we will want to play our part in scrutiny and policy formulation. Can the noble Baroness give an assurance not just on debates but on parliamentary oversight of negotiations?

These past weeks have been challenging. That so many people took part and voted shows real interest and engagement, yet with such a binary choice it was harder to make the case for the complexities of what was involved and what could follow. Many who voted still wonder and worry whether they have made the right decision. There is no route map for what comes next. There is no long-term certainty for our economy or our society, and it is at times such as this that we have to rise to the challenge and ensure that what unites us is bigger, better and stronger than what divides us.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement and welcome the words she added in respect of what your Lordships’ House may be able to contribute. I declare my interest as a Britain Stronger In Europe board member.

As a democrat, I respect the outcome of Thursday’s referendum, but—I suspect like many colleagues across the House—I am profoundly saddened by the result. I have a deep anxiety about what the future holds for our country. I am worried about the divisions that have been laid bare across the country during this campaign and echo many of the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, about the tone of much of the debate and the campaigning. I am fearful for what this means for our outward-looking and tolerant country as well as for the future integrity of the United Kingdom. Many on these Benches are angry that notwithstanding his fine words in the Statement about his vision for Britain, this Prime Minister put party interest before national interest, complacently believing that he could win a referendum primarily designed to settle internal Tory divisions.

The European Union is an institution to which we have belonged and contributed for the past four decades. It has delivered peace, promoted equality, kept us safe and opened the doors of opportunity, but it will no longer be a part of Britain’s future. I think too that the leave campaigners do not appear to have any plausible strategy. We have already seen that they are backtracking on many of the promises they made during the campaign. So the result will change not only the very fabric of our country, it will change Europe and our relationship with the wider international community. Regrettably, the United Kingdom has on many occasions failed to provide leadership in the European Union. As a result, the people of this country have seen Governments play a half-hearted role at best. There has been a failure domestically to make the positive case for the European Union and the benefits it brings. In some ways, therefore, it is not unsurprising that when faced with years of the EU being blamed for everything that is wrong in this country, a majority of people voted to leave.

But I fear that we are only just beginning to realise the adverse impact the vote will have. Since Friday morning we have seen the value of sterling plummet. Some £120 billion was wiped off the markets in the first 10 minutes of trading on Friday, while this morning sterling slipped another 2.6% against the dollar and the pound is at a 31-year low. Surely the leaders of the leave campaign owe it to us to tell us what they think is negotiable with other members of the European Union, what is not negotiable in spite of their many promises, and what the likely consequences will be for the British economy. I welcome the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor of the Bank of England have tried to steady the markets this morning, but fundamentally it is the uncertainty of the United Kingdom’s position which will continue to cause nervousness in the economy. Businesses and the markets like certainty, but certainty would appear to be the last thing we have in the wake of the referendum.

I have a number of questions for the noble Baroness. Can she indicate what the present Government would wish to achieve in negotiations with the European Union? Do they believe that we should seek complete access for the United Kingdom to the single market? Do the Government even have a view? Given that younger voters overwhelmingly voted to remain in, what hope can the noble Baroness and the Conservative Party offer future generations that they will have the same access to jobs across Europe as previous generations?

Of course it is not just the economy that is uncertain, but the very fabric of our constitution. Article 50 states:

“Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements”.

I think that the House will be interested to know what the Government’s view is as to what our own constitutional requirements are. Are they an Act of Parliament, a resolution of the House of Commons, a resolution of both Houses or an executive decision by Members? That is an important question for the noble Baroness to answer.

Scotland and Northern Ireland both voted strongly to remain in the European Union and the Secretary of State for Scotland has said that, if the people of Scotland ultimately determine that they want a second Scottish independence referendum, there will be one. Can the noble Baroness confirm that that is the position of the United Kingdom Government? Does it mean that if the Scottish Parliament asks for a further referendum, the Government will bring forward an order under Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to transfer the necessary powers for a referendum to take place?

Northern Ireland as we know shares a land border with another EU country. Thousands of people cross it every day in both directions visiting friends and family, while the economy of Northern Ireland relies heavily on the European Union as a pull factor for internal investment, and directly in the form of research and development grants and peace grants. Can the noble Baroness set out the Government’s understanding of the operation of the common travel area where one country is an EU member and the other country is not? Can she also say something about mandate—the mandate of a future Prime Minister elected not by the country but by members of the Conservative Party, and what that means in terms of taking back control?

The leave campaigners have now admitted that they cannot do much to reduce immigration, so we need a serious and informed public debate about the long-term challenge of immigration. However, the anti-immigration rhetoric we have seen during the campaign has encouraged a surge of right-wing resentment. Perhaps the noble Baroness will wish to elaborate more on what the Government intend to do to tackle that. Finally, although I very much respect the decision of the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford, to resign his position as a European Union Commissioner, we are still members of the European Union. Can she give an indication of the timescale for Britain to nominate another EU Commissioner so that we do not actually have an empty seat at the table?

We on these Benches firmly believe that it is in the United Kingdom’s best interest to stay as closely engaged in European networks of co-operation and joint operation as possible. We will continue to make the case for Britain’s future with Europe and to fight for an open, optimistic, hopeful, diverse and tolerant United Kingdom.

Jo Cox MP

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 20th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader for her comments, because the murder of Jo Cox MP almost defies words. It is so devastating and so heartbreaking that any words are inadequate to express the scale and the depth of the loss—the loss to her husband Brendan and their children, to her parents, her sister, her family, but also to that wider family of friends, colleagues and constituents. It is a loss that has affected everybody who knew her, but also so many more who had not yet got to know her. It is not just the loss of who and what she was, but the loss of what would have been and what more she would have done. It is a loss that is so profound and overwhelming that we, individually and collectively as a nation, are the poorer for it.

Jo was clearly very special. She was exceptional. A physically tiny Yorkshire lass—she could not have been more than five-foot high—she was morally and intellectually strong. Driven by her values, she knew she had a role to play in creating a better country and a better world. For the all too short time she was in Parliament she brought those values, with all the skills, experience and knowledge from her past roles with Oxfam and NGOs, working with Glenys Kinnock, the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, and for Gordon and Sarah Brown, to her life as a Labour MP. We have heard her described as a force of nature, decent and determined. She made people feel good about themselves and what they could achieve. She was passionate, she was serious, and she was good fun. As one of her friends in the House of Commons said:

“She was the best of us, and she made the best of us”.

She saw that a role in politics should be a force for good—a force that could make lives better. That is what brought her, like so many others, into politics.

Our democracy will be seriously undermined and weakened if this outrage stops our brightest and our best from stepping forward into public life. When good people of passion and principle tell their family and their friends they want to be a councillor or a Member of Parliament, I want their families to be proud of them, not to fear for them. Yet the level of vitriol and violence contaminating our public and political life will deter some of the best people who we need the most. Almost every MP can report threats and abuse, sometimes violent. Although social media makes it easier, it is too easy just to blame the internet.

All of this has coincided with the deterioration of political debate. Of course we must argue our differences on policy with emotion and with conviction, but too many have gone beyond that. The tone of the debate and the language, particularly around immigration and asylum seekers, shames many. The drip-feed of denigration and abuse poisons the very air that we breathe, so those of us who can speak out, and those who report and write, need to think very carefully about past actions and words, and the way forward. In the words of Jo’s husband Brendan, Jo would have wanted us to,

“all unite to fight against the hatred that killed her”.

The hope for the future is that the good in society comes to the fore, as we have seen in the reaction from the public, both at home and abroad, at this terrible time, and as we saw in the amazing courage and bravery of Bernard Kenny, who risked his own life, and in the love and loyalty of her assistant, Fazila Aswat.

Over the weekend, my husband drew my attention to a 1968 drawing of Martin Luther King standing over a cross-legged Gandhi saying, “They think they’ve killed me”. That was saying that—despite his death, because of how he had inspired others—his values, commitment and passion lived on and, through others, achieved, and still achieve, great things. Jo’s legacy has to be that same inspiration—an inspiration to others to continue her work; an inspiration to us all to be better; an inspiration to those who have encouraged hatred and bitterness that they must stop. More than anything else, it must be an inspiration to others to fulfil her promise and her legacy. The following message was left in the Batley book of condolences, and I can think of no finer tribute. I imagine that it is from a young woman who had met Jo. She wrote:

“You told me I’d do great things. I’m going to prove you right and I’m going to carry on your legacy”.

Election of Lord Speaker

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in offering our congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on being elected Lord Speaker and in offering our support to him as he prepares to take on his new role. I would also like to offer on behalf of the House our thanks to my noble friend Lord Cormack and to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for standing in this election. Elections are only possible when there are candidates and we are very grateful to both noble Lords. I would also like to pay a very brief tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, as our most distinguished Lord Speaker. There will be a proper occasion for us to pay tributes after the noble Baroness retires as Lord Speaker—because she remains our most distinguished Lord Speaker until 1 September. In the meantime, I offer my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I concur with the noble Baroness’s comments. We welcome the opportunity at a later date to pay tribute to the work of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and to thank her for it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, said, we warmly congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. His election shows the high regard in which he is held in this House. He will know that he has the support of the entire House as he undertakes his duties. He will bring both his personality and his political skills to the role.

What we have seen today is a parliamentary first in that this is the first time that a man has been elected to the role of Lord Speaker. Nowadays, there are few positions in public life of which that can be said. I add our sincere thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for not only having put themselves forward as excellent candidates and given us an excellent choice but for the way in which they conducted themselves during the election, which was a great tribute to them and, indeed, to the whole House. Therefore, we thank them and offer our very warm congratulations to our next Speaker.

[Lord Fowler (Con)]

My Lords, as the Leader of the House has just said, the election may be run but I do not take over responsibility until 1 September. In the meantime, the Lord Speaker continues to preside in the excellent way we have all admired for the last five years. I would like to make three very brief points. First, I thank the House very sincerely for the exceptional support it has given me. I will do my utmost to live up to this trust.

Secondly, I thank the other two candidates: the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, and my noble friend Lord Cormack for the way in which the election was conducted. With the election over, the good news is that the bar on offering hospitality comes to an end and we can buy colleagues drinks. The bad news is that I seem to have inadvertently mislaid my wallet today.

My third, and entirely serious, point is this: my whole purpose from now onwards is to serve all the Members in every part of this House in times which may be crucial for the very future of the House of Lords. My aim quite simply is to be the loyal servant of this House. I thank noble Lords for their support.

Government and Parliament

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That this House takes note of the balance of power between the Government and Parliament; and of the case for Parliament having full details of all legislation that it is asked to consider.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, when I was preparing my comments for the Queen’s Speech, I found myself reflecting on the past Session as much as thinking about the next. When we debated the Queen’s Speech, it became very clear that there were different interpretations of one particular highly significant sentence:

“My Ministers will uphold the sovereignty of Parliament and the primacy of the House of Commons”.

In two excellent contributions in the debate that followed, the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, considered that that might have been a cryptic reference to the Strathclyde review, and the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, referred to it as a shot across the bows of your Lordships’ House.

I try to take a more generous view. Surely, what we had here was a Government making it clear that Parliament, not the Executive, is sovereign, and that the House of Commons has primacy over your Lordships’ House—something about which I am not aware that there was ever any doubt. So it is easy to agree with both those statements, and I warmly welcome them.

But I suspect that the concerns of the noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Butler, were not misplaced. Clearly, this Government have not welcomed challenge from your Lordships’ House. In some ways, that is understandable, because this is the first Conservative Government in history not to have had an automatic majority in your Lordships’ House. It is worth noting at this point that no Labour Government have ever had a majority in your Lordships’ House, so we understand that this is frustrating and we understand the challenges. Perhaps, as we reflect on the past Session, we should recognise that we are all adjusting to that new and very different situation. We now have an opportunity to reflect on our role, our work and how we manage our current circumstances.

There are two easy and unsatisfactory ways of addressing this. The first is for the Opposition to always vote against the Government, come what may. I have already shown that on this side of the House, as the Official Opposition, we do not think that that is responsible or productive, or in keeping with the conventions of your Lordships’ House. The other easy and unsatisfactory way is for the Government to continue to appoint more government Peers to an ever-growing House. Likewise, that is not a measure that we consider responsible, productive or in keeping with the conventions of your Lordships’ House. We are a responsible, challenging Opposition, fulfilling our constitutional role.

I want to place on record that we welcome those Ministers who have engaged constructively, who have been prepared to take on board suggested amendments and who have offered concessions. That is good government and it makes for good legislation. We also welcome the way in which the House as a whole has wanted to consider the detail of difficult legislation. Noble Lords will recall that we proposed a Select Committee to examine the most controversial clauses of the Trade Union Bill and assist in consideration of the detail. That committee ran parallel to the Bill and did not delay our normal proceedings. That was a sensible, pragmatic approach. Even noble Lords who were initially uncertain about the process now consider that that was a helpful and productive way forward.

Even on the votes on the tax credits SIs, the amendment from my noble friend Lady Hollis provided the Government with the time and space to reconsider their position—which they did, and for which this House was very appreciative.

I also want to take a deeper look at how we consider legislation coherently and constructively. That is the purpose of our Motion today. In the previous Session, we received a number of Bills that were, quite frankly, half-baked. They had inadequate detail and insufficient financial information, and far too much was left to regulation. We saw this in the Childcare Bill, the Cities and Devolution Bill and the Energy Bill, and there were a number of others. On the Trade Union Bill, we did not even have the impact assessment until after Second Reading, by which time the Bill had completed all its stages in the House of Commons. As for the Housing and Planning Bill, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said in the debate on the Queen’s Speech:

“I listened as a Bill was debated that consisted of a whole series of almost blank pages. Metaphorically speaking, there was nothing to be debated”.—[Official Report, 24/5/16; col. 315.]

The Select Committee on the Constitution has noted a trend whereby, to quote from its report,

“delegated legislation has increasingly been used to address issues of policy and principle, rather than to manage administrative and technical changes”.

Similar concerns were identified by the Delegated Powers Committee.

In the first term of a Government, it is understandable, even if it is not acceptable, that some legislation that is brought forward is not fully formed, but the trend towards not providing adequate details for Bills is continuing into this Session of Parliament. In both the Children and Social Work Bill and the Bus Services Bill, there are more provisions for the Secretary of State to use regulations than there are clauses in the Bill, including on issues that should be considered matters of significant policy. My noble friend and former Leader of the House Lord Richard summed it up in the debate on the Queen’s Speech when he said:

“If the Government continue to produce skeleton Bills, they should not be too surprised about the vigour with which this House then approaches the regulations made under them”.—[Official Report, 24/5/16; col. 310.]

Another example of this increasing trend to policy-making by regulation was in the votes on tax credits. The view that this policy change should be more appropriately tabled as primary legislation was widespread across Parliament. It was that debate that led to the review and report of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, which has recommended curtailing the powers of your Lordships’ House—yet all three committees of this House and the Commons committee that considered his report were chaired by members of the government party, were all critical and all declined to support the noble Lord’s recommendations.

Perhaps the Government’s position to seek to restrict even the limited scrutiny we have of SIs is better understood if a report in the Financial Times about greater government use of SIs is accurate. Written by two highly respected journalists, it quotes one political aide as saying:

“We are being told to use statutory instruments wherever possible to get legislation through”.

It also quoted an unnamed senior Tory as saying:

“‘The House of Lords has to tread carefully … If they don’t accept this proposal, we could stop them having any say at all on secondary legislation. That’s a big bazooka’”.

I do not know who uses that kind of language. Why would a Government seek to increase the use of SIs? Would it be to evade deeper scrutiny, or is it because policy is still being developed, so proposals are light in detail? Or is it that non-amendable regulations are easier to get through both Houses?

The Leader of the House has said that the Government need certainty in getting their legislation through. I have to say to her that certainty in politics is a luxury. Rather than examining how to curtail scrutiny to provide such certainty, perhaps a better way forward would be to ensure that legislation introduced in your Lordships’ House was fit for purpose in the first place. It should be well drafted, with adequate detail from informed debate and decisions.

No Government should be able to claim that they are right all the time, every time. This House is part of the checks and balances of our political system. We have a constitutional role to fulfil to undertake that remit. I hope that Ministers will have recognised from our deliberations on legislation in the past Session that the frustrations of this House are not just about policy; they are often about lack of detail, lack of information, the quality of drafting and Ministers being unable to provide comprehensive, detailed answers on policy matters. The role of this House is important in the process of good scrutiny and challenge, but we need the tools to do the job properly.

I greatly welcome the Leader’s recognition during the debate on the Queen’s Speech. She said:

“Every Minister will agree that their Bill is better for the scrutiny it receives here”.—[Official Report, 18/5/15; col. 24.]

Responsible opposition requires responsible government, and responsible government means that details of what is being debated—that is, impact assessments, financial reports and relevant information—should be available when Bills are considered, even if that detail will be voted on only when we see the regulations further down the line.

So we have given some thought to what might be a sensible and productive way forward. It would be inappropriate to accept the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to limit your Lordships’ ability to consider secondary legislation at a time when statutory instruments are growing in number and significance. A preferred way forward would be a more considered, less partisan and less defensive approach to how we as a House can best support good legislation. A number of suggestions have already been referred to and commented on by our committees that reported on Strathclyde and by noble Lords who have considered this issue.

I want to highlight three of them. The first is Ministers abiding by Cabinet Office guidance on legislation—and that includes the availability of full impact assessments prior to Second Reading debates. Secondly, we should ensure that draft regulations should in most cases be available prior to Committee and always prior to Report. Thirdly, would it not be helpful to have an assessment of the quality of draft regulations and legislation? The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, made a thoughtful and useful speech recently on the use of technology to improve drafting, which I am pleased received a very positive response from the Minister.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has also considered how we might improve scrutiny. After receiving evidence, it said:

“We recommend that further work should be undertaken by some appropriate form of collaborative group to consider what procedural changes in both Houses could be introduced to make parliamentary scrutiny more effective”.

Obviously, we have no locus for the other place and I am not putting forward a formal proposal today, but we as a House should consider whether a Select Committee—either a new committee or one that is currently established—could examine not just how we deal with legislation but what information this House should reasonably expect from the Government to be able to fulfil its responsibilities effectively. They are two sides of the same coin.

Having reflected on the past Session, we now have an opportunity. We can bring a new rigour and focus to our deliberations. I think that we as a House can devise a more robust, intelligent approach to how we manage our business and remove the frustrations of seeking information that should be, but is not, available—which often extends the debate on the issue of process rather than on the policy that we want to debate. It would also assist Ministers—who, as we have seen, all too often struggle to provide the detail that we need—thereby delivering better legislation.

I think that these proposals are worthy of further consideration. Setting up a committee of your Lordships’ House to look at this specific point should be further considered. I urge the Leader of the House to respond positively to these suggestions today. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the noble Baroness, who made some very constructive and helpful points. I also thank all noble Lords who contributed and who listened to the debate today. It has been a very impressive debate, showing this House at its best and, given its quality, perhaps showing why this House should have a greater role when scrutinising legislation.

I never intended the debate to be all about the report of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I was really trying to get a sense of the direction of thought from your Lordships’ House on the kinds of measures we have been discussing and that we would like to engage in. It has been helpful to have that today. The support we have had for the proposals is very welcome.

However, I do not agree with noble Lords who think that the conventions have been broken. I do not know how many times I have to say this but I will do so again: we abide by the conventions of your Lordships’ House. Even if some noble Lords think that on one day, on one vote, the conventions were stretched a bit, I do not think that in any way detracts from the observance of those conventions around the House at all times.

When we had the tax credits vote, the proposal from my noble friend Lady Hollis was intended to be helpful. Noble Lords will recall that we did not support a fatal Motion, although I think the noble Baroness said once before in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, that, had we done so, it would not have broken the conventions. The House was seeking a way to be helpful to the Government. My grandmother had a saying that no good deed goes unpunished. Given that it led to the Strathclyde review, I wish I could tell her how right she was.

I wish to pick up on a couple of points. Mention was made of how many defeats the Government had suffered or endured in the last Session, and a figure of 53% was given. However, that was around 60 votes, exactly the same as during 2001—the noble Lord need not shake his head at me; I am telling him this as a fact, but I see he wants to use percentages. Let us look at the numbers. It is around 60 votes. The reason why percentages are not valuable here is because this House, knowing the arithmetic of the House, does not vote nearly as often as it did when the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was the Leader of the Opposition. Therefore, we exercise the restraint that the Government so crave, we vote less often, so if we win the same number of votes, that affects the percentage. If the noble Baroness and the noble Lord want us to go through the Division Lobbies far more often and orchestrate losing votes to get the percentage down, that can be done but that is really not the way to do things. Let us look at exactly what we are talking about and not compare apples and oranges.

The other issue around the number of votes concerns the quality of the votes. The Labour Government lost votes around national security. One of the issues on which we voted where this House took a different view from that of the Government was to set up a Joint Committee to look at whether or not the Government’s EVEL proposals—English votes for English laws—could be examined to see whether they had an impact on this House. The Government class that as a defeat. I class it as a victory of common sense for your Lordships’ House. However, it would still come into the 53% figure. Indeed, the Select Committee which set up the Trade Union Bill, and which greatly assisted this House, was something which the Government opposed. Therefore, we have to look at the quality of the votes as well. I make no apology as regards those issues on which we have won votes but I also say that we have exercised restraint. We vote less than half as many times as does the Commons and we vote fewer times than Oppositions have in the past.

The noble Baroness said that there were fewer statutory instruments now. I did not raise the issue of the number of statutory instruments debated in this or the last Parliament. That was not part of the argument I was making. My concern is that in legislation now there is a greater use of delegated powers than we have had before. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for acknowledging that there seems to be a far greater use of delegated powers for policy issues and not the normal uprating issues. Tax credits were an example. They should have been contained in legislation, not a statutory instrument. The noble Lord, Lord Norton, referred to the number of pages. I have not counted them but it is the significance of the policy matters that cause this House concern. I was grateful to the noble Baroness for acknowledging—as I did—that in the first Session of any Parliament it is sometimes difficult to have legislation that is fully formed. However, we are now in the second Session of this Parliament and that scenario still applies to the buses Bill and the Children and Social Work Bill. Her comments were helpful. If she could rigorously look at those two Bills, as she has offered to do, I am sure that all of us would be very grateful and appreciate it.

The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, made an interesting contribution. He may not think that I am going to agree with him but, surprisingly, I am. He said that a veto, or voting against, or declining to accept a statutory instrument should be used only in very exceptional circumstances. There have been six times, I think, since 1950 where a fatal Motion has been accepted by this House, and something like 150 times where they have been rejected when they have been tabled. So it seems that they are being used only in very exceptional circumstances, and I think that it is fair that we have that.

The other point that the noble Baroness made was about ensuring that impact assessments and draft regulations are available for Committee; I suggest that she does not take the whole burden for that on herself. I greatly appreciate that she would do more with the Bills coming to this House to have that information ready. But we have even had Bills that have gone through their Commons stages and then come to this House without us having that information available. She needs to engage with her Cabinet colleagues to make sure that, at the other end of the Building, they are also ensuring that that information is available when Bills are debated in the other place.

Today’s debate has been really instructive and impressive for your Lordships’ House. I am grateful for the support and I shall go away and think further on some of the comments that have been made. Perhaps we need to up our game on scrutiny and to ensure that we always have the correct information. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, made the point about Henry VIII powers—I think that they may have extended too far into the future on some occasions. If we can remove some of the obvious tensions that come about not because of policy issues and policy debates but because of lack of information, then our debates and discussions will be a lot more constructive and helpful, both for Ministers who sometimes struggle because they have not been given a fully formed policy and for those who are struggling to get that information.

I am grateful to your Lordships’ House and to the Minister for her helpful comments, which we can build on.

Motion agreed.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 18th May 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That this debate be adjourned until tomorrow.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving that the debate be adjourned until tomorrow, it is not, I hope, because of anything that I have said already. Before I reflect on those two excellent speeches, I think that it is appropriate in the year of Her Majesty’s 90th birthday, and given that she is the longest-serving monarch in our history, to recognise that she has delivered more than 60 Speeches to Parliament since 1952. If in all those years she has ever sensed any repetition or contradiction, she has never let it show.

It is my pleasure warmly to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, on their excellent and entertaining contributions. I confess that, as they spoke, I had that uncomfortable feeling that one has when hearing first-rate speeches and when one’s inner voice shouts, “Now follow that”.

Today’s proposer and seconder of the Motion for an humble Address have followed the tradition of such speeches in a way that they, their colleagues and this House can be proud of. The noble Lord, Lord King, is well known for his distinguished and impressive political career in the other place before joining your Lordships’ House in 2001. Having served as an officer in the Army, he was elected to Parliament at a by-election in 1970 and has served as Secretary of State variously for Defence, for Northern Ireland, for Employment, for Transport and for the Environment. Despite such demanding positions, one biographical note reflected:

“King never had a strong public profile compared to other members of the Cabinet”.

But the explanation for that does him great credit, because it reasons that he did not,

“draw attention to himself by elementary errors or public gaffes”.

That reputation for competence and attention to detail have followed him into your Lordships’ House.

The noble Lord may not recall the first time that we met. Indeed, it was not until I was moving house recently and sorting out boxes of political papers that I was reminded of a Conservative Party conference in the 1980s—I was there for work, not pleasure, I hasten to add—when I found the distinctive blue diary for that year, signed by the noble Lord, Lord King. I confess that he was so nice to me that I did not have the heart to tell him that I was a member of the Labour Party.

Perhaps I may say also how much we appreciated the noble Lord’s generous comments about the new London mayor, Sadiq Khan. We are very proud of Sadiq as Mayor of London and are grateful for the noble Lord’s comments.

The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is a newcomer to your Lordships’ House, having joined us in 2013 following a distinguished six years as leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Clearly, her party’s recent successes in Scotland have their roots in her time as leader. I commend the approach to opposition that she took when she wrote:

“Opposition is not about talking a good game, it is about taking the attack to government, challenging, calling to account, exposing flaws and weakness”.

Although fiercely loyal to her party, she is also prepared to extend the hand of friendship across the political divide. I love the story that, after a particularly bruising political meeting, she was happy to provide a lift home to Douglas Alexander, the Labour Minister who was speaking. They are clearly perfect qualities and skills for your Lordships’ House. The noble Baroness is also known for her sharp-edged, self-deprecating wit, of which we had a sense today. Now that she has stood down from the Scottish Parliament, we look forward to many more contributions from her.

Our proposer and seconder today would have seen the Queen’s Speech in advance and sworn to secrecy. Those who have served as Ministers will know that it is a closely guarded secret, and information is provided only on a need-to-know basis. On the night before the State Opening, Ministers and a few special guests are invited to Downing Street, where in the delightful surroundings of the Pillared State Drawing Room, they can hear the Prime Minister brief them on the content, again in secret, and no one must breathe a word. On the last occasion—so far—that I joined other Ministers at this event, I was surprised that a former Conservative MP had joined us for the evening. Being very curious, and knowing him reasonably well, I asked what he was doing there. “Sarah invited me”, he said, referring to the Prime Minister’s wife. “Well, it’s lovely to see you,” I said. “It’s great to have you here”. As the evening wore on, a number of my colleagues, having seen me speaking to him, asked me why he was there. I gave them my best knowing look, as if I was in on it, and said, “Well, Sarah’s invited him”. So we all had a very pleasant evening and heard all about the Queen’s Speech and he happily chatted and mingled—and, I have to say, many assumed that he might have a surprise announcement to make. As the evening drew to a close, we spoke again. He said that it had been a great evening but then added, “But I really don’t know why Sarah invited me”. He drew out his invitation. We gasped. It was for the Association of Former Members of Parliament, for the following week. To his great credit, he never said a word.

This is the sixth Queen’s Speech for the current Prime Minister, but only the second as the head of a wholly Conservative Government. Just in case we might have forgotten, the Queen’s Speech reminds us that there will be a referendum on membership of the European Union. Perhaps many, including I suspect most of the Cabinet and even the Prime Minister himself, had expected this Speech to be after the referendum. Clearly, he had to address that sense that the Government were becoming paralysed by the focus on the referendum and the consequential divisions in the Conservative Party. That led to the best-laid plans of the Chief Whip being thrown to one side, as new timetables and schedules had to be set to complete the business of the past Session. To complete our deliberations on the Housing and Planning Bill, we had long, late sittings, crammed together. I hope that we never again see a significant, non-emergency Bill being scheduled for four consecutive sitting days, with plans to regularly sit until midnight. If the country votes to leave the EU, there will be enormous and probably immediate consequences that will have to be dealt with. It would be helpful to understand if there is a plan B, or is this Queen’s Speech the “Carry on Regardless” version?

We know that the longer he is in office, the Prime Minister becomes more conscious of his legacy. This speech has been labelled the Prime Minister’s life chances strategy. But what is new? We heard today that the Government would bring public finances under control. Similar promises were made in the Queen’s Speeches of 2014 and 2015, yet with each successive Budget, the Chancellor has had to recognise his failure and readjust the deficit fighting plans as debt has increased from around 60% of GDP in 2010 to over 80% today. We are told that the Government want to increase living standards and tackle poverty, as we were in the two previous years. What was the Government’s big idea last year?—to redefine how child poverty is measured.

In this Queen’s speech, it appears that that attempt at redefining continues. The commitment to tackling poverty and deprivation is now to be through addressing family instability, addiction and debt. Yes, of course those issues must be tackled, but they are as often a consequence of poverty as much as they are the cause. We warmly welcome commitments to improving the life chances of children in care, supporting the hardest-to-reach families, and educational excellence, but just saying so does not make it happen. If we are seriously to improve life chances for all, those commitments have to be supported and resourced. The Government’s cuts to tax credits and universal credit, the devastating cuts in support for those with disabilities, closing down Sure Start centres and ending the educational maintenance allowance make that commitment to life chances much more difficult.

As in the previous years, the Government again commit to providing for more people to own their own homes, yet we have the lowest level of home ownership in this country for almost 30 years. The number of 25 to 35 year-olds owning their own home has fallen from 59% to 34%, and it is getting harder and more expensive to rent. There is no point in promising broadband for all homes if so many people do not have one.

The Prime Minister has spoken of a relentless focus and an all-out assault to tackle disadvantage and extend opportunity. He is right to do so and his commitment is the test that we will apply to the Bills announced today. Over the next few days, we will debate these measures and over the coming Session consider the detail. In those Bills where we share the Government’s objectives, our scrutiny role will be to deploy the expertise in your Lordships’ House and play our role in ensuring effective legislation that will work in practice. When we see the new prisons Bill, it may well fall into that category, especially given the recent reports of violence and quite shocking conditions. But merely passing responsibility to prison governors, without adequate staff, resources, support and back-up, will not do the job.

I am fascinated by the announcement reported in the press that the Government’s commitment to technology heralds the building of a space station or a port for commercial space travel. As the noble Lord, Lord King, pointed out, we have not been able to extract a decision from this Government on a new runway for Heathrow or Gatwick over the past six years. Is it taking so long that we are now bypassing air travel and heading straight for outer space? Seriously, I suspect that those people, particularly in rural areas, who cannot get a bus to the nearest shops or the hospital just might think that their quality of life will be improved by more buses than more rocket ships. Perhaps we can pursue that in the buses Bill.

Some measures previously announced have already fallen by the wayside. Despite the best efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Nash, to persuade your Lordships’ House, and perhaps also his ministerial colleagues, the Government have wisely dropped plans to force all schools to become academies. I suspect, though, that the detail of that policy might not have survived the forensic scrutiny of your Lordships’ House. The Education Secretary, in promoting and defending the policy, said she had “no reverse gear”. Perhaps not. But a U-turn does not require a reverse gear, although the speed of this made it more of a handbrake turn that any boy racer would have been proud of. Let us be clear: I am not opposed to U-turns, which show that the Government have had to listen and take other views into account and that they do not have a closed mind.

We will also have legislation that goes to the heart of national security. We must at all times seek to ensure that we get the balance right between the protection of citizens from fear and harm and protection from unwanted intrusion into private lives and individual freedom. These are complex issues. Our input will be constructive and in the national interest. The work and the report of the Joint Committee on these issues will be vital in our deliberations, and I thank all noble Lords who contributed to that report, and my noble friend Lord Murphy of Torfaen for chairing the committee. We will want to work with the Government to seek changes and improvements where needed to ensure effective, balanced legislation that is fit for purpose.

We also make a plea to the Government not to bring forward framework Bills but to provide as much detail as possible in well-drafted Bills. In the previous Session, three Bills that started in your Lordships’ House—on childcare, energy and devolution—were introduced despite being deficient in detail and financial information. In some ways, poor drafting provides an opportunity to show your Lordships’ House at its best, although it is not usually recognised as being extremely helpful to government. It is not just this side of the House that complains. It was the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, in the Trade Union Bill—I promise never to quote him again—who said that,

“I wonder whether the Bill was stitched together by some special adviser who was being paid too much; some teenage scribbler who should, perhaps, have been given greater and wiser direction”.—[Official Report, 3/5/16; col. 1355.]

In choosing to examine the most controversial part of the Trade Union Bill by Select Committee, this House fulfilled with honour its duty of scrutiny. In a cross-party way, it forensically examined the detail and made recommendations which, while recognising what was a somewhat confused manifesto commitment, provided for a sensible, practical and fair way forward. Again, the whole House should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, who chaired that Select Committee, and his colleagues across the House, who showed this House at its very best.

We welcome the commitment in the Queen’s Speech to uphold the sovereignty of Parliament and the primacy of the House of Commons. Following the tax credits vote, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, produced his report, Secondary Legislation and the Primacy of the House of Commons. However, as recognised by our Lords committees, the content instead reflected the Government’s concerns about ensuring the primacy of the Executive over Parliament. The dispute between us and the Government over whether or not the Motion on tax credits was fatal is not productive; we will never agree. Where we can agree is that the Government clearly resented that challenge and, before any Motions were tabled, we heard threats to create 150 more government Peers or even to suspend your Lordships’ House. In spite of that provocation, the tax credits debate showed your Lordships’ House, put in an unsatisfactory position with proposals that would have been better in primary legislation, seeking a way forward to provide the Government with the time and space to reconsider—which they did and for which we are grateful.

I have always been quite an admirer of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, as a Leader of the Opposition. He is known in this House for being a wise and courteous man, and a wily political operator. He led the challenge to the Labour Government. His voting record against the Labour Government is admired by many. In fact, he is the ideal role model for any Opposition Leader. I have said this before, but I think there are two Lord Strathclydes. There is the traditional model from Opposition, standing up for the rights of Parliament in the interests of scrutiny and good governance. So many of us were surprised when the new, modern noble Lord produced his report. I hope he will not be offended, but I prefer and agree with the traditional model, who said:

“I hope that no stones will be cast at this House for doing its job”.—[Official Report, 18/11/09; col. 13.]

Wise words indeed.

We endorse the recognition that it is Parliament and not the Executive that is sovereign and, of course, endorse the primacy of the other place. But, if we all reflect on the past year, perhaps as a House we are all adjusting to new circumstances. This is the first ever Conservative Government that has not had an automatic majority in your Lordships’ House. No Labour Government ever had a majority in this House, so we understand that at times it is frustrating and it can be challenging. I want to place on record my thanks and appreciation to those Ministers who have been willing to engage, to listen and, where necessary, to seek compromise and bring forward amendments.

For your Lordships’ House to do its job well requires noble Lords to use their expertise, knowledge and skills to work effectively and co-operatively to scrutinise legislation, which often takes much time and a lot of stamina. I thank all noble Lords who engage in many of hours of debate on Bills, propose amendments, seek clarifications and seek to improve legislation in a process that Governments should, for the most part, find valuable and helpful. We respect, and will continue to respect, those well-established conventions that have served this House well. I pledge that we will continue to be a good, effective and responsible Opposition. I beg to move.

House of Lords: Domestic Committees

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always nerve-racking to be the 22nd speaker in a debate, even when winding up. I was slightly nervous when the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, referred to everything having been said but not yet by everyone. I was even more alarmed when my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall—the third speaker—observed that she had never spoken so early in a debate when almost all the points had been covered. As 22nd speaker, there is not much I can add that is new. However, I can reflect on the debate and try to draw some of the points together.

I have found this debate helpful and useful and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for ensuring that it took place. She will know that we were keen to get the views of the House on the report and its sense has been made clear today. Certainly the report has our broad support and we endorse its recommendations. A number of useful comments have been raised today. I add our thanks to all those on the committee, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, who chaired it. We are grateful for the committee’s work and to all those who have spoken today.

It is clear from the report and from those who gave evidence during the committee’s sessions that the committee was diligent, detailed and brought considerable thought, discussion and analysis to its work. It is helpful that the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, outlined the wide experience that the committee brought to its deliberations. It has been said, but it is worth repeating, that the remit was narrow and focused. It was purely about the governance arrangements of this House and whether improvements could be made to the way decisions are taken about its services and facilities that we, as working Members of your Lordships’ House, rely on to do the task that we are charged to do. It was solely focused on the domestic committees that deal with facilities and services and not the four that deal with procedural matters.

I appreciate, as we have heard from some noble Lords, that there are many other areas of your Lordships’ House for which reform and change could be considered. There has been debate in recent years about the role of the Lord Speaker and whether there is any merit in introducing a similar model to that of the other place, particularly at Question Time. Scrutiny of appointments and an enhanced role for the House of Lords Appointments Commission has been raised many times in your Lordships’ House, and many of us believe that the time has come to end by-elections for hereditary Peers, particularly as there is now no real distinction between a hereditary Peer and a life Peer.

The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was asked by the Government to make recommendations on how this House considers secondary legislation. It would be fair to say that that report has not been as well received as this one and that it is more controversial, dealing as it does with the powers of the House. It is worth saying that we remain committed to a constitutional convention to examine these wider issues that have a deeper impact, beyond your Lordships’ House, than just that on the work we do here. But this committee was set a very clear and focused remit. It was not about procedure, proceedings, powers or appointments. If at times that was frustrating, it also had great merit. A wider remit would have made a broad acceptance and consensus far more difficult and therefore less likely to effect any change.

I shall start by touching on something in the report. I welcome the appreciation, which is often lost in reports on governance, that we are a unique political organisation which brings with it other complexities and tensions. It is wise that paragraph 59 cautions against “oversimplified” comparisons with other organisations or companies. Too often, decisions in debates about governance look for a model of examples from other organisations, but they are so very different from us that it is impossible to draw direct comparisons. An example drawn from the report shows that a member of the House Committee has complex, multiple roles and multiple relationships, which are additional factors that have to be taken into account. It has to be recognised that although the House Committee has responsibility for strategic and financial direction, unlike other policy and resources committees it has no control over two of the major factors that influence expenditure in your Lordships’ House—the number of appointments and the number of sitting days. This point has been made by a number of noble Lords. The committee has to make decisions around things which have an impact but over which it has no control, which is hugely significant.

As the summary sets out, the aim of the committee is clarity: clarity of the roles and remits of the different committees and clarity in the decision-making process. That clarity should bring with it greater understanding across your Lordships’ House of how decisions are made and where authority rests in decision-making, thereby increasing accountability.

When I gave evidence to the committee, it was shortly after taking over as leader of my group and as Leader of the Opposition. Having been in the other place for 13 years and in your Lordships’ House for five years, I thought I had some understanding of how committees work, although, like most colleagues, I had not looked at them in any great detail. Almost immediately on my appointment, I was given a list of committees of which I would be a member. It was a very long list, and I was helpfully provided with information about the role of the committees. Having spoken to colleagues, it became clear that the House Committee is the most senior committee dealing with strategic issues.

The point at which I began to question the structure was after a particularly long discussion at a meeting of the House Committee. Those who have attended that committee will know that it is on occasion prone to holding long discussions on issues. Only towards the end did it become clear that we were not being asked for a decision, we were having a decision reported to us with no further decisions to be taken. There is a lot to be said for committees of expertise to investigate and make decisions on the understanding that unless something serious and important is raised about process or new information that had not been previously considered comes to light, those decisions should be endorsed by a senior committee. My point is about the lack of clarity. It was not clear to me and to most, or possibly all, of the other members of the House Committee what was being asked of us when we embarked on that discussion.

The terms of reference for the domestic committees are set out in Figure 1 on page nine, to show their remits. Under the graph it states:

“The House Committee sets the policy framework”,

and is responsible for strategic and financial planning. The Administration and Works and the Information Committees “consider”, the Refreshment Committee “advises”, while the Works of Art Committee “administers”. I cannot think of any other organisation that would operate in that way, so it is not surprising that there is a lack of clarity on how committees operate today. Those who have served on these committees take their responsibilities very seriously, and I suspect that it often makes their work harder if it is unclear whether they are being asked to decide on something or note something, or whether a decision has been taken or they need to advise.

Let me add to the points that have been made today about the recommendations. The new structure is more streamlined and provides greater clarity. The decision-making process can be better understood, thereby providing greater accountability. The new senior committee has considerable authority. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, may have a better view on this, but it seems to me that the role being proposed is perhaps that considered by the previous review he was involved with—a high-level, strategic and overview committee.

I welcome the ability to bring in outside expertise to the senior committee. That may also be helpful in managing relationships between staff and Members. I am not particularly concerned about the number; the suggestion made by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull—two or three—was quite helpful. I agree that outside expertise should be available to the finance committees and service committees, but not as full members.

The report made the point about induction and support for committee members, which applies to all the committees, particularly the senior committee. Some further thought needs to be given to how that can be achieved and what is appropriate. Again the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, commented on that. The advice and expertise of outside non-execs should complement and supplement existing expertise in your Lordships’ House; we should not assume that we do not have it here. There is a lot of expertise and we need to channel it in the right way. Advice from outside experts may change the kind of advice we want; it depends on who we have as members on those committees.

There also needs to be greater consideration of the balance between building up expertise and the rotation of members. We want members to be experienced in the work of the committee and to understand its history and background. There also needs to be a rotation of members so that it does not become stale, and we are able to engage more Members of your Lordships’ House in the work of all three committees.

The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, on the role of the Chair of the Audit Committee was very helpful and valid. I had previously thought that it would be helpful for the Chair of the Audit Committee to be on the House Committee. I always found it strange that the noble Baroness sat slightly apart from the committee, given that there was a lot of value in what she had to contribute. That is something certainly worth considering.

The role of the Chairman of Committees has been raised by a number of noble Lords. It is a different role but I am not sure I share the view that it is a lesser one. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, picked up on this issue as well. If the post is also expected to deputise as the Lord Speaker—and, I assume, speak for the senior committee when required—as well as maintaining responsibility for procedure and privilege, it remains a pivotal position in your Lordships’ House. As with all these positions, but particularly this one, the first postholder will have a very important responsibility in how they fulfil that role and maintain the other part of the existing role, particularly at a time of transition and change. I still see this as a very key role in the work we do.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, reflected on the role of the staff of the House and their relationship with Peers. He made the crucial point that that relationship is key to effective working. The comments of my noble friend Lady Donaghy on user groups and sounding boards were very helpful. There is a wider point about communications, which the Leader of the House also referred to. I wonder whether we need a more formalised and comprehensive reporting process. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, referred to the BBC film, saying that he was unaware of it, as were many other noble Lords, until it happened.

What is of interest to colleagues is not just the decisions that are made, but transparency in how they are made and have been made. We have all had reports in our groups, but not all issues are of interest to all Members. Sometimes, as the report identifies, those reports are made in response to rumours, which may be false, or they are late in the process. Trying then to report on the “how and why” can make the decision-making process even more complicated. Although we deal with these issues in our party groups, as the Leader of the House said, very few are party political. That is the channel of communication, but they are not really party-political issues. Perhaps sometimes, they sit a little uneasily in other discussions the groups have. I would like us to give a little more thought to whether there is something we can do. Red Benches is very good at informing; I wonder whether that can be extended to raising issues early on.

My noble friend Lady Donaghy, the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in some ways issued a challenge, in that there cannot be a dilution of commitment to the issues they have raised—those dealt with by the Information Committee and the Libraries, and those relating to IT. The report appears to be saying that these have to be drawn together; otherwise, you get the absurdity of the printer situation, which is now familiar to us all. The noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, spoke about a review. I am not sure that we want ongoing review at all times, but I have always been a great believer—I might one day regret saying this—in post-legislative scrutiny. We have pre-legislative scrutiny but we do not have proper post-legislative scrutiny. There is an opportunity here, perhaps after a year of operation, to ensure that things are working as we intend them to and that we have got it right.

When my noble friend Lady Donaghy spoke about the work of the Information Committee she also spoke about external communications, which was not part of this review. It is something about which we should be mindful in all the work we do. I add a personal note about my noble friend. The work and chairmanship of the Information Committee may have seemed really innocuous and easy when it was first mentioned. Yet, she steered us through a minefield of iPhones, broadband, complications and printers. We found that there was nothing set down; no two situations were exactly the same. What she did is perhaps a model for the report: she brought clarity, transparency and accountability to the work of that committee. She made a point about seeing our work not in a vacuum, but in the political context. That makes the point rather well for the whole report.

Finally, looking at the way forward, the Leader’s Group recommended in paragraph 116 that,

“the revised structure is implemented without delay”.

That was reflected in a number of comments in the debate. However, it also said in paragraph 115:

“There is a significant amount of detail to be settled before the changes can be made. However, we urge against any temptation to defer difficult decisions to a later date”.

Those on the group who spoke, including the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, said the same. Those are wise words, and I agree with both those statements. This debate will help enormously to inform how we proceed towards implementation. The noble Baroness the Leader will recall our discussions. I accept that the usual channels can be opaque, as a couple of noble Lords said, but I am content that they should be charged with taking this forward. However, I also think—I have spoken to her about this—that it would be helpful to have the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, and perhaps other members of the group engaged in that process to advise and support us. Their work has been invaluable. I would hate it if the usual channels referred to something without understanding the background and the discussions. We have the group’s report, but we do not have transcripts of its debates and discussions. In some ways the report is a minor part of the work undertaken over several months. It would be good for the usual channels to engage with the group during that process and have the advice of the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, given her experience. I would certainly find that helpful.

It would also be helpful to be clear today about the next stages and the timeframe. It is clear that there is broad agreement. Clearly there are some “i”s to be dotted and “t”s to be crossed. I assume that we will need to come back to the House at some point with a resolution of the whole House so that we can move forward with implementation. I wonder whether, built into that, there can at some point be some post-implementation reflection, so that, if something has not gone as the group and this House intended, we can examine it and make any tweaks that may be required.

We certainly have here a model for good governance, decision-making, transparency and, importantly, accountability. It is clear from the report that there is an intention—for those who are willing—to engage the whole House.

House of Lords Appointments Commission

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I echo the noble Lord’s remarks wishing the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, a speedy recovery. On the Question he raised, the House of Lords Appointments Commission does indeed play a very important part in vetting all nominees and recommending excellent candidates for the Cross Benches, but it is the political parties that must be accountable for the Members who sit on the political Benches. That is an important principle that should continue. It is also important that we maintain appointment to the Cross Benches, as well as to the political Benches. That is why the Prime Minister appointed 10 Peers to the Cross Benches in the last Parliament, alongside those appointed independently through the HOLAC process.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we look forward to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, being back with us when she is fully fit again. Does the Minister not recognise that the Question is being raised because of concern about the number of appointments to the House? I have raised this with her before. This Prime Minister has made appointments to your Lordships’ House at a faster rate than any other Prime Minister since 1958, when life peerages were introduced. We have had a greater percentage of government Peers appointed and fewer Cross-Bench and Opposition Peers. Is the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Butler, not worthy of consideration if we are to maintain public confidence, and your Lordships’ confidence, in the work of this House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I, too, very much care about the reputation of this House and that the public maintain their confidence in it. The best way for us to assure that is in the way we make our contributions to this House’s work. It is worth making a couple of points in response to the noble Baroness’s point about size and the number of appointments. Since 2010, nearly 150 Peers have left your Lordships’ House through retirement or, sadly, having passed away. Forty-four of those have been since the general election. We have to continue to refresh and renew our membership. It is an important part of our being effective as a House. On the noble Baroness’s point about appointments by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, 22% of the appointments he has made have been to the Labour Benches.

Her Majesty the Queen: 90th Birthday

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, it is an honour to lead tributes to Her Majesty in your Lordships’ House today. We are celebrating her 90th birthday, and to do that justice we should first reflect on her early life.

When Her Majesty was born in 1926, she was not expected to be Queen, but at just nine years old her destiny changed and her life of a dedicated public servant began. As a young teenager of 14, during the early years of the war, she made her first radio broadcast to bring comfort and hope to other children being evacuated. Her first solo public engagement followed two years later. At just 25 years old, she succeeded her father to the Throne. That was four short years after she had married and while her first two children were still toddlers. As she became Queen, her first Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, warned:

“She comes to the Throne at a time when a tormented mankind stands uncertainly poised between world catastrophe and a golden age”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/2/1952; col. 962.]

We are fortunate that she will give her name to an era of unparalleled economic growth, technological advance and social change.

Throughout her whole life she has helped our nation to feel at ease with itself, and has served as a remarkable point of continuity for all her people. Despite her tender years, at the beginning of her reign she was admired by even her most experienced subjects. All of us have trembled at making our maiden speech in this Chamber, but nothing we have done could compare with her first gracious Speech from that Throne. Yet, following that first Queen’s Speech, the then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Viscount Swinton—a man who had first entered the Cabinet before she was even born—spoke for the whole House when he said that describing the Speech as gracious was not simply a formality but,

“the true word for all the Queen is and all she does”.—[Official Report, 4/11/1952; col. 20.]

As she has grown older, she has remained just as admired by successive generations. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge said on his recent state visit to India that Her Majesty is a “guiding force” for her family, and her contemporaries have looked to her to see how to respond to a changing world. She has innovated to bring the monarch closer to the people, her Christmas message of 1957 being the first to be transmitted live. She pioneered the royal walkabout and last year she sent her first tweet. The fact that she remains as relevant today as ever is testament to her enduring values of decency, honesty, humility and honour.

What is truly remarkable about Her Majesty’s commitment is that she continues to serve with a zest and undimmed sense of public duty. Last year she carried out 306 engagements in the UK and 35 overseas —a workload that would be daunting to someone even half her age. As Head of State, she fulfils her constitutional position with distinction. Uniquely among those who give public service, her commitment is beyond question.

As we mark this milestone birthday, Her Majesty would no doubt want us to acknowledge the lifelong support of her family, not least that of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, who remains always by her side. Indeed, those remarkable photographs that we have seen published this week show just what family means to Her Majesty.

As we look forward to the many events that will celebrate Her Majesty’s 90th birthday between now and June, many noble Lords will choose to pay tribute in their own way. Your Lordships may have noticed that my noble friend the Chief Whip is not in his usual place today. Instead, as Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms, he is at Windsor Castle, presenting Her Majesty with a sheaf of a new variety of daffodils. These have been raised—that is the term that I am told is used—in honour of her birthday and registered with the Royal Horticultural Society. Appropriately, these daffodils are named “Gentleman at Arms”. My noble friend has taken them to Her Majesty and intends to offer her the warm wishes of those on all Benches in this House.

I know that all noble Lords will join me in wishing Her Majesty a very happy 90th birthday. I beg to move this Motion for a humble Address to Her Majesty.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to follow the noble Baroness and to speak on behalf of these Benches to wish Her Majesty the Queen a very happy 90th birthday and to support the humble Address.

For many of us, milestone birthdays are a time for reflection, but when that birthday is a 90th and a whole life has been spent in the public eye in public service, that reflection has an added dimension. Like all of us, Her Majesty the Queen will have many personal memories of births and deaths, and of people, places and events. While her life has brought more privilege and opportunities than most, she has also known the highs and the lows, and the joys and the sadnesses that normal family life brings. As the noble Baroness also said, it is impossible to reflect on the role of the Queen without recognition of her husband, the Duke of Edinburgh—outspoken, sometimes irreverent and at all times totally human, his support has been vital.

The late King George VI, with his sense of public responsibility during the Second World War, had a huge influence on his daughter. I am sure he would take immense pride in how she has conducted herself and shaped the role of our longest serving monarch.

This 90th birthday is a time for public celebration and public reflection. It is not just here at home but across the world that those with memories of the Queen will share them—memories of a visit, a conversation or even just a comment.

As the noble Baroness said, when Princess Elizabeth Alexandra Mary was born on this day in 1926 in London, few could have predicted the life that lay before her. At that time, she was third in line to the Throne, because the then Prince of Wales had not yet met Mrs Simpson and started the chain of events that led to the Queen’s father becoming King. Yet the responsibility is one that she readily absorbed, making her first radio broadcast in 1940 at the age of 14, as the noble Baroness referred to, on BBC “Children’s Hour”, to the children evacuated overseas during the Second World War.

With thousands of other young women, she qualified as a mechanic and driver with the ATS. For the time, that was quite bold and daring for a princess and not a decision that the Government were at all happy about, believing that her most important training should be as heir to the Throne, not as a mechanic. Her determination and persistence in insisting that she wanted to serve her country was a clear indication that she would become a Queen who would bring her own style and make her own way. So on VE Day, the two royal princesses were as keen as anyone to celebrate the peace. Her Majesty has spoken about joining the crowds in Whitehall, where they mingled anonymously with those linking arms and celebrating the end of the war. In a world without selfies or mobiles, I wonder how many thought that the two attractive young women partying with them looked just like Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret.

In the aftermath of the Second World War, as with the first, the royal families from across Europe found that as time moved on so did they. In those post-war years, the monarchies of Bulgaria, Portugal and many other countries ceased to exist. But here in the UK, a country that has known just a very short-lived republic in the 17th century, the monarchy has not just survived but has increased in popularity. We should recognise and happily acknowledge that such success is to the enormous credit of the Queen and the way she has conducted herself and undertaken the role—a role for which there is no manual or guide.

In the age of Twitter, “Celebrity Big Brother” and, at times, the sharing of private moments far too publicly, it is refreshing and enormously valued and respected that Her Majesty the Queen has never spoken out publicly of her views on a political or policy issue. She has maintained a dignified privacy of thought and displayed strict impartiality. If it was frustrating at times, it never showed.

The 12 Prime Ministers who have had weekly audience with the Queen have found a willing listener and someone whose discretion they can rely on absolutely: no leaks, no Tweets, just absolute confidence. Those who have attended Privy Council meetings will recognise that businesslike approach.

Some will have heard of the Labour Minister who, while standing as business was conducted, suddenly heard her mobile phone ringing very loudly from the very large handbag at her feet. Hugely embarrassed, she dived into the bag and desperately rummaged until she eventually and triumphantly retrieved the phone and silenced it. Her Majesty looked at her and sympathised: “Oh dear, I do hope it wasn’t anyone important”. I do not think either of them will ever talk to me again.

That dry sense of humour has become very evident over the years. At the opening of the Docklands Light Railway, shortly after her election in 1987, the late Mildred Gordon MP was asked by the Queen how she liked her new job. She responded that she felt that she had little power to help her constituents. The Queen replied understandingly, “Once they find out that you lot can’t help them, they all write to me”.

The fascination with the life of the Queen is magnified overseas, and often the most die-hard republicans show an admiration for her role. Many will recall the somewhat bizarre pirouette of the former Canadian Prime Minister, Pierre Trudeau, behind the Queen in 1977—although he later also spoke of his respect. Just last week, almost 40 years later, the current Canadian Prime Minister and Pierre Trudeau’s son, Justin Trudeau, met Her Majesty and paid a glowing tribute. You had to smile as one onlooker observed, “The hereditary principle is alive and well”.

There are other well-known people who also celebrate their 90th birthdays this year: Sir David Attenborough, the singer Tony Bennett and Fidel Castro. In those 90 years, the world has seen massive social and cultural change. In technology, John Logie Baird had only just demonstrated his new invention, the mechanical television, yet last Christmas, the Queen’s Christmas message had more viewers than any other programme on Christmas Day, even “Downton Abbey”—I was looking for the noble Lord, Lord Fellowes, but fortunately he is not here. In 1926, the first transatlantic telephone call was made from London to New York, the first red telephone box was installed and the national grid was set up. In that same year, the League of Nations convention abolished all slavery—so it seems so disappointing that, almost 90 years later, we had to bring in our own Modern Slavery Act. While this week we debated and sought to improve the Government’s Trade Union Bill, it was tougher in 1926, when we had martial law on the streets in response to a general strike.

So times have changed, but values have not. The British Royal Family is one of the most traditional institutions in the world, yet if we stand back and reflect on the past 90 years, both the 90 years of the Queen’s life and more than 60 years of her reign, we see significant changes. Many politicians would give their right arm for her approval ratings. She has perceptively, skilfully and without fanfare guided the monarchy into the 21st century. It is clear that Her Majesty values not just the monarchy of today but that of the future, and has encouraged and supported her children and grandchildren in undertaking official engagements and public service.

For some in your Lordships’ House, she has been the Queen for our entire lives. Many of us do not remember any other monarch. She is the figurehead of our nation, and I hope that our tributes today convey something of the high personal esteem in which she is held. So today is a day for celebration. Happy birthday, Ma’am.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches, I am delighted to add our good wishes and congratulations to Her Majesty the Queen on this very special occasion of her 90th birthday. Her Majesty has had, and continues to have, an extraordinary life which she has dedicated in service to our country.

As we have heard, we are living today in a very different society from the one into which Her Majesty was born 90 years ago today. Then, the sufferings and losses of the Great War were still raw. It was less than a decade since the United Kingdom had emerged from the horrors of the First World War, vowing that such devastating conflict should never happen again. And yet, sadly, it did happen again, when Her Majesty, then Princess Elizabeth, was barely a teenager. As we have heard from the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition, during the Second World War Her Majesty not only served in the Auxiliary Territorial Service but brought comfort to many young people by broadcasting a message to evacuees, urging them to have courage.

Thankfully, today the prospect of war breaking out in the heart of Europe is unimaginable. Today, too, we are living in a world which is far more interconnected than it has ever been. Again, the Queen has fully engaged with this changing world. The metamorphosis of empire and colonial rule into the Commonwealth of free nations has in no small way been achieved by the Queen’s strong personal commitment to that unique institution and force for good in the world. She has kept up with technology and the IT revolutions which have transformed our world. In March 1976, when almost 50, and taking part in a network technology demonstration, the Queen was the first Head of State to send an email, although I rather suspect they did not call it that then.

Throughout the huge change that this country has experienced in the past 90 years, Her Majesty has been a constant, standing with her people whether it be in times of tragedy or times of joy. Her unwavering sense of duty, supported for more than 68 years by the Duke of Edinburgh, and her commitment to the service and welfare of the people of this country are surely an inspiration to us all. When speaking in your Lordships’ House on the eve of Her Majesty’s 80th birthday, my noble friend Lord McNally recalled the vow that the then Princess Elizabeth made in Cape Town on her 21st birthday. She said:

“I declare before you all that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to your service”.

Gladly, it has been a long life and surely no vow has been more dutifully honoured.

On behalf of my Liberal Democrat colleagues, I offer my warmest good wishes to Her Majesty the Queen on this most joyous of milestones for a day full of love and affection from family, friends and a grateful nation. Long live our noble Queen!

Strathclyde Review

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, one thing that I know that we all agree on, from the many conversations I have had with noble Lords from around this House, is that we must protect this House’s role as an effective revising Chamber that holds the Government to account. I understand some of the points that the noble Lord makes, along with those that have been made by some of the committees of this House, and I will reflect on all the things that have been put forward. I think that it is premature for us to commission another review before the Government have responded to the review that they commissioned from my noble friend Lord Strathclyde. I need to be clear to the House that the Government are seeking something which is in the interest not just of the Government but of Parliament as a whole; that is, that the elected House has the final say on all legislation.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, yet again, the noble Baroness seems to misunderstand how statutory instruments operate. They are not a matter between the House of Commons and the House of Lords but a matter between the Executive and Parliament. This issue strikes fundamentally at the very heart of what this House does. We have a responsibility to scrutinise not just primary but secondary legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has already pointed out that all three of these Select Committees of your Lordships’ House, all chaired by government party Peers, have totally rejected all the Strathclyde options. The noble Baroness says that she will reflect on the reports and come back to the House “in due course”. Can I ask her to take her time in reflecting on the information in those reports—they bear weight and are very interesting—but then, in the next Session of Parliament, provide time for debate? However, if the speculation about legislation to enforce Strathclyde is true, will she give an undertaking today for an early debate prior to the Queen’s Speech?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, as I have already said, the Government are considering carefully all the options that are in my noble friend Lord Strathclyde’s review. We will take account of what has been included in the reports of the various Select Committees of this House. When we reach a decision, we will publish our response, but we have not yet reached our decision.