House of Lords: Domestic Committees

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always nerve-racking to be the 22nd speaker in a debate, even when winding up. I was slightly nervous when the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, referred to everything having been said but not yet by everyone. I was even more alarmed when my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall—the third speaker—observed that she had never spoken so early in a debate when almost all the points had been covered. As 22nd speaker, there is not much I can add that is new. However, I can reflect on the debate and try to draw some of the points together.

I have found this debate helpful and useful and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for ensuring that it took place. She will know that we were keen to get the views of the House on the report and its sense has been made clear today. Certainly the report has our broad support and we endorse its recommendations. A number of useful comments have been raised today. I add our thanks to all those on the committee, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, who chaired it. We are grateful for the committee’s work and to all those who have spoken today.

It is clear from the report and from those who gave evidence during the committee’s sessions that the committee was diligent, detailed and brought considerable thought, discussion and analysis to its work. It is helpful that the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, outlined the wide experience that the committee brought to its deliberations. It has been said, but it is worth repeating, that the remit was narrow and focused. It was purely about the governance arrangements of this House and whether improvements could be made to the way decisions are taken about its services and facilities that we, as working Members of your Lordships’ House, rely on to do the task that we are charged to do. It was solely focused on the domestic committees that deal with facilities and services and not the four that deal with procedural matters.

I appreciate, as we have heard from some noble Lords, that there are many other areas of your Lordships’ House for which reform and change could be considered. There has been debate in recent years about the role of the Lord Speaker and whether there is any merit in introducing a similar model to that of the other place, particularly at Question Time. Scrutiny of appointments and an enhanced role for the House of Lords Appointments Commission has been raised many times in your Lordships’ House, and many of us believe that the time has come to end by-elections for hereditary Peers, particularly as there is now no real distinction between a hereditary Peer and a life Peer.

The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was asked by the Government to make recommendations on how this House considers secondary legislation. It would be fair to say that that report has not been as well received as this one and that it is more controversial, dealing as it does with the powers of the House. It is worth saying that we remain committed to a constitutional convention to examine these wider issues that have a deeper impact, beyond your Lordships’ House, than just that on the work we do here. But this committee was set a very clear and focused remit. It was not about procedure, proceedings, powers or appointments. If at times that was frustrating, it also had great merit. A wider remit would have made a broad acceptance and consensus far more difficult and therefore less likely to effect any change.

I shall start by touching on something in the report. I welcome the appreciation, which is often lost in reports on governance, that we are a unique political organisation which brings with it other complexities and tensions. It is wise that paragraph 59 cautions against “oversimplified” comparisons with other organisations or companies. Too often, decisions in debates about governance look for a model of examples from other organisations, but they are so very different from us that it is impossible to draw direct comparisons. An example drawn from the report shows that a member of the House Committee has complex, multiple roles and multiple relationships, which are additional factors that have to be taken into account. It has to be recognised that although the House Committee has responsibility for strategic and financial direction, unlike other policy and resources committees it has no control over two of the major factors that influence expenditure in your Lordships’ House—the number of appointments and the number of sitting days. This point has been made by a number of noble Lords. The committee has to make decisions around things which have an impact but over which it has no control, which is hugely significant.

As the summary sets out, the aim of the committee is clarity: clarity of the roles and remits of the different committees and clarity in the decision-making process. That clarity should bring with it greater understanding across your Lordships’ House of how decisions are made and where authority rests in decision-making, thereby increasing accountability.

When I gave evidence to the committee, it was shortly after taking over as leader of my group and as Leader of the Opposition. Having been in the other place for 13 years and in your Lordships’ House for five years, I thought I had some understanding of how committees work, although, like most colleagues, I had not looked at them in any great detail. Almost immediately on my appointment, I was given a list of committees of which I would be a member. It was a very long list, and I was helpfully provided with information about the role of the committees. Having spoken to colleagues, it became clear that the House Committee is the most senior committee dealing with strategic issues.

The point at which I began to question the structure was after a particularly long discussion at a meeting of the House Committee. Those who have attended that committee will know that it is on occasion prone to holding long discussions on issues. Only towards the end did it become clear that we were not being asked for a decision, we were having a decision reported to us with no further decisions to be taken. There is a lot to be said for committees of expertise to investigate and make decisions on the understanding that unless something serious and important is raised about process or new information that had not been previously considered comes to light, those decisions should be endorsed by a senior committee. My point is about the lack of clarity. It was not clear to me and to most, or possibly all, of the other members of the House Committee what was being asked of us when we embarked on that discussion.

The terms of reference for the domestic committees are set out in Figure 1 on page nine, to show their remits. Under the graph it states:

“The House Committee sets the policy framework”,

and is responsible for strategic and financial planning. The Administration and Works and the Information Committees “consider”, the Refreshment Committee “advises”, while the Works of Art Committee “administers”. I cannot think of any other organisation that would operate in that way, so it is not surprising that there is a lack of clarity on how committees operate today. Those who have served on these committees take their responsibilities very seriously, and I suspect that it often makes their work harder if it is unclear whether they are being asked to decide on something or note something, or whether a decision has been taken or they need to advise.

Let me add to the points that have been made today about the recommendations. The new structure is more streamlined and provides greater clarity. The decision-making process can be better understood, thereby providing greater accountability. The new senior committee has considerable authority. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, may have a better view on this, but it seems to me that the role being proposed is perhaps that considered by the previous review he was involved with—a high-level, strategic and overview committee.

I welcome the ability to bring in outside expertise to the senior committee. That may also be helpful in managing relationships between staff and Members. I am not particularly concerned about the number; the suggestion made by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull—two or three—was quite helpful. I agree that outside expertise should be available to the finance committees and service committees, but not as full members.

The report made the point about induction and support for committee members, which applies to all the committees, particularly the senior committee. Some further thought needs to be given to how that can be achieved and what is appropriate. Again the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, commented on that. The advice and expertise of outside non-execs should complement and supplement existing expertise in your Lordships’ House; we should not assume that we do not have it here. There is a lot of expertise and we need to channel it in the right way. Advice from outside experts may change the kind of advice we want; it depends on who we have as members on those committees.

There also needs to be greater consideration of the balance between building up expertise and the rotation of members. We want members to be experienced in the work of the committee and to understand its history and background. There also needs to be a rotation of members so that it does not become stale, and we are able to engage more Members of your Lordships’ House in the work of all three committees.

The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, on the role of the Chair of the Audit Committee was very helpful and valid. I had previously thought that it would be helpful for the Chair of the Audit Committee to be on the House Committee. I always found it strange that the noble Baroness sat slightly apart from the committee, given that there was a lot of value in what she had to contribute. That is something certainly worth considering.

The role of the Chairman of Committees has been raised by a number of noble Lords. It is a different role but I am not sure I share the view that it is a lesser one. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, picked up on this issue as well. If the post is also expected to deputise as the Lord Speaker—and, I assume, speak for the senior committee when required—as well as maintaining responsibility for procedure and privilege, it remains a pivotal position in your Lordships’ House. As with all these positions, but particularly this one, the first postholder will have a very important responsibility in how they fulfil that role and maintain the other part of the existing role, particularly at a time of transition and change. I still see this as a very key role in the work we do.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, reflected on the role of the staff of the House and their relationship with Peers. He made the crucial point that that relationship is key to effective working. The comments of my noble friend Lady Donaghy on user groups and sounding boards were very helpful. There is a wider point about communications, which the Leader of the House also referred to. I wonder whether we need a more formalised and comprehensive reporting process. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, referred to the BBC film, saying that he was unaware of it, as were many other noble Lords, until it happened.

What is of interest to colleagues is not just the decisions that are made, but transparency in how they are made and have been made. We have all had reports in our groups, but not all issues are of interest to all Members. Sometimes, as the report identifies, those reports are made in response to rumours, which may be false, or they are late in the process. Trying then to report on the “how and why” can make the decision-making process even more complicated. Although we deal with these issues in our party groups, as the Leader of the House said, very few are party political. That is the channel of communication, but they are not really party-political issues. Perhaps sometimes, they sit a little uneasily in other discussions the groups have. I would like us to give a little more thought to whether there is something we can do. Red Benches is very good at informing; I wonder whether that can be extended to raising issues early on.

My noble friend Lady Donaghy, the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in some ways issued a challenge, in that there cannot be a dilution of commitment to the issues they have raised—those dealt with by the Information Committee and the Libraries, and those relating to IT. The report appears to be saying that these have to be drawn together; otherwise, you get the absurdity of the printer situation, which is now familiar to us all. The noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, spoke about a review. I am not sure that we want ongoing review at all times, but I have always been a great believer—I might one day regret saying this—in post-legislative scrutiny. We have pre-legislative scrutiny but we do not have proper post-legislative scrutiny. There is an opportunity here, perhaps after a year of operation, to ensure that things are working as we intend them to and that we have got it right.

When my noble friend Lady Donaghy spoke about the work of the Information Committee she also spoke about external communications, which was not part of this review. It is something about which we should be mindful in all the work we do. I add a personal note about my noble friend. The work and chairmanship of the Information Committee may have seemed really innocuous and easy when it was first mentioned. Yet, she steered us through a minefield of iPhones, broadband, complications and printers. We found that there was nothing set down; no two situations were exactly the same. What she did is perhaps a model for the report: she brought clarity, transparency and accountability to the work of that committee. She made a point about seeing our work not in a vacuum, but in the political context. That makes the point rather well for the whole report.

Finally, looking at the way forward, the Leader’s Group recommended in paragraph 116 that,

“the revised structure is implemented without delay”.

That was reflected in a number of comments in the debate. However, it also said in paragraph 115:

“There is a significant amount of detail to be settled before the changes can be made. However, we urge against any temptation to defer difficult decisions to a later date”.

Those on the group who spoke, including the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, said the same. Those are wise words, and I agree with both those statements. This debate will help enormously to inform how we proceed towards implementation. The noble Baroness the Leader will recall our discussions. I accept that the usual channels can be opaque, as a couple of noble Lords said, but I am content that they should be charged with taking this forward. However, I also think—I have spoken to her about this—that it would be helpful to have the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, and perhaps other members of the group engaged in that process to advise and support us. Their work has been invaluable. I would hate it if the usual channels referred to something without understanding the background and the discussions. We have the group’s report, but we do not have transcripts of its debates and discussions. In some ways the report is a minor part of the work undertaken over several months. It would be good for the usual channels to engage with the group during that process and have the advice of the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, given her experience. I would certainly find that helpful.

It would also be helpful to be clear today about the next stages and the timeframe. It is clear that there is broad agreement. Clearly there are some “i”s to be dotted and “t”s to be crossed. I assume that we will need to come back to the House at some point with a resolution of the whole House so that we can move forward with implementation. I wonder whether, built into that, there can at some point be some post-implementation reflection, so that, if something has not gone as the group and this House intended, we can examine it and make any tweaks that may be required.

We certainly have here a model for good governance, decision-making, transparency and, importantly, accountability. It is clear from the report that there is an intention—for those who are willing—to engage the whole House.