Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2015

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I support this order, as I would any measure that will protect us against the serious and growing terrorist threat that we face. The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has noted but not commented on the report, but I would like to make one or two points.

I shall refer in particular to the Muslim Brotherhood. It has been well described as the trunk of the tree that represents political Islam. The root is probably the Wahhabi sect. The branches of the tree include buddies such as those named by my noble friend, as well as other terrorist organisations, spreading from al-Qaeda, Boko Haram and, above all, ISIS. Together, these branches form an international fascist movement specialising in spreading terror and even seeking to dominate Europe—as well, of course, as Muslim lands.

In April last year, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister ordered an inquiry into the Muslim Brotherhood by Sir John Jenkins, Her Majesty’s ambassador to Saudi Arabia. As my noble friend will know, the Muslim Brotherhood is at present in open armed conflict against the Egyptian Government of President Sisi, particularly in Sinai. The Muslim Brotherhood is also politically active in the UK. Indeed, I understand that a summit has been planned in London on 12 February under the umbrella of an organisation called Cordoba, of which the chair, a Mr Tikrit, is well known to security circles in both Washington and London. I also understand that Cordoba has recently had its bank accounts closed by HSBC.

I hope that my noble friend will be able to give some indication of when we shall be made aware at least of the conclusions of the Jenkins inquiry into the Muslim Brotherhood.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation and for writing to me earlier in the week with further information. I am genuinely grateful; like his predecessor, who is also here tonight, he has always been willing to engage with us and assist us by providing information. He will appreciate that we do not have access to the same security information as the Government and we take the information given by Ministers on trust. We support this order and recognise the need to have such protections in place. The judgment that we make has to be based on our trust in Ministers and the information that they provide to the House. The information given here is quite clear.

I will raise just two issues with the noble Lord, which I have mentioned to him. One is about the Prevent programme. It is quite clear when we hear of cases like this, of extremism and the dangers and fear it brings and the horrific terrorist acts that are inflicted, we must do everything we can to deter young people from becoming radicalised to the extent that they wish to commit such violence in this or any other country. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, which we are currently discussing—it has two days in the Chamber next week—addresses just that issue and how important it is to deter young people from being caught up in extremist views. It is a question of extent: holding views is one thing, but if that leads to terrorism and engagement in terrorist activities, clearly that is extraordinarily serious and has to be tackled.

One way of doing that is through the Prevent programme, which the Bill places on a statutory footing, and we welcome that. But we need to think long-term on these issues. Over the past few years the funding for Prevent has been cut from £17 million when we were in government to less than £3 million. If we are serious about tackling such issues, we cannot think, “What’s the next issue? What’s the one after? What’s happening next week or next month?”; we have to think long-term. I was appalled that at one point the number of local authorities receiving funding from Prevent fell from 90 to just 23, although I think that is improving now. We support Prevent being on a statutory footing but I urge some longer-term thinking to ensure that we tackle this at source and prevent any more of our young people being caught up in such abuse of their religion.

I told the Minister as we came into the Chamber that I would briefly raise this second matter. I mentioned the issue of trust and us not having access to the same information as the Government. In this case, I think we do have information. I was reading the Hansard of the debate last night in the other place and was absolutely horrified to see that there is a Twitter account for JAA, glorifying violence and terrorism and directing readers to other places they can get such information. It is an English Twitter account, in English; there are links to the Arabic site as well. This account has more than 14,000 followers. My honourable friend Diana Johnson, the shadow Minister, raised this last night, and I am appalled that when I looked on Twitter today, just minutes before I came into the Chamber, I saw that that account is still active.

If we are serious about dealing with young people and tackling such terrorism, we have to look at how social media is being used and use all the powers available to us to do something about it. Surely the Government are aware of this. The Minister will probably say the same as the Minister said last night—that it has been reported to the appropriate body, which is dealing with it. However, there are powers in place and we have to look to those who engage with social media and those responsible for it. I do not expect to be able at the click of a button to access a Twitter account glorifying such horrendous terrorist acts.

I make a plea to the Government. The powers are there. Referring this problem to a body that is going to look at it and think about it is not good enough, and I hope that by tomorrow if I look at that account it will be closed down.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

I very much took my noble friend’s point about looking at this long-term and strategically. Will she re-emphasise that there is no way in which we can look at this effectively in the long term, whatever firm action must be taken now, unless we take very seriously why young people feel attracted to join these movements and what the real causes are in their minds that lead them on to this unfortunate path?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I entirely agree with my noble Friend. I think the aim of the Prevent programme, which clearly has not been as successful as we would want it to be to date, is to ensure that we engage with young people and with those in positions of authority, to whom young people listen. I do not know whether my noble Friend saw the account that I did last week, of a young woman who went to, I think, Syria with her child. Her family dropped her off at the airport thinking she was flying to Spain. She went out to Syria, and now she is trying to return home, completely disillusioned by what she has seen out there. She thought she was going to support a cause, and she realised what a terrible mistake she had made. We do not want young people making that mistake, and we want to ensure that there are preventive programmes in place.

Part of the Bill, I have to say, is what the Government are trying to achieve, but, as my noble Friend said, we must think longer term and realise how serious this is for the consequences, not only for the security of the nation but also for those young people themselves, who in many cases have been abused and end up disillusioned and disengaged. That is not what we want for young people.

I say to the noble Lord that we support this order. I repeat my gratitude to him for keeping us informed and writing to me beforehand.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

Does the noble Baroness agree that we should turn our attention to the abuse of freedom of speech? I think that it provokes enormous anger in people otherwise well disposed to a democratic society when they see people they regard as divine slandered and mocked in public media. The noble Baroness looks puzzled, but I am talking about the “Je suis Charlie” episode. I have absolute disgust at the reaction by which the people who were offended by this showed their anger, but I have profound sympathy with their anger. It seems to me that they have been provoked, and are being provoked, over generations, and I think moderation in all things is something that we must try to instil in our people and in our young people.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I think that respect for others and others’ views, including on religion, is very important. I think that respect, regard and politeness—not wanting to offend others—is important. It is very difficult, however, to draw the line, and there can be nothing at all that can justify or excuse the behaviour of those who murdered the journalists. If Paris taught us anything, it taught us that, when the crowds came out in Paris, where you had people from all faiths and none linking arms, walking through the streets, they were standing together against violence, but they were also standing together for freedom and democracy and the right to think and speak as they wish. There is, however, a difference between showing that we stand for freedom and making clear that we abhor such violence in any circumstance, and that there can never be any excuse or reason for it.

I was about to say to the noble Lord before that intervention that I support the order, but he will have heard the comments around your Lordships’ House tonight that this is not just about describing groups; it is a battle for hearts and minds as well.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who spoke and contributed in the short debate that we have had on this important issue. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her contribution. What we must do is work across parties to address these important issues. I appreciate that so doing requires a degree of trust. That is the reason I want to set out the safeguards that are there—our own checks and balances and also the evidence, as far as we are able—and that are behind the proposals which we are making and debating today.

The noble Baroness referred particularly to the importance of prevention and talked about hearts and minds. We have the Prevent strategy in place. I noted her comments about funding, although the figure that I have in front of me is £40 million for 2014-15. However, the Prime Minister has recognised that, in view of the increased threat, we need to put extra money behind this effort. He pledged a further £130 million. A large element of this will go to the agencies and security services, which are in the front line of keeping us safe, but there will also be an element for working with the Channel programme and Prevent to try to prevent people being drawn into extremism and radicalisation.

--- Later in debate ---

We recognise that the material is still there. We are the first Government to take this action against these two groups. The Twitter account to which the noble Baroness referred is run by an American corporation. The Twitter and Facebook accounts of both groups, and the YouTube channel, have all been assessed and found to be in breach of the Terrorism Act, as she rightly pointed out. These have been referred to the companies concerned, which is the procedure in the first instance. They have also been sent to the Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit, which will monitor the action taken. Some content from both groups is in Arabic and the Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit is reviewing translations of that material, but we have made very clear what we think of those organisations and we expect Twitter, Facebook and YouTube to act responsibly in these cases—as, in fairness, they have in others.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I agree with everything that the Minister has said. My only question is: did he say or hint at the beginning of his comments that the reason that no firm action other than referrals has been taken at this stage was that this order had not gone through? My understanding was that the action which was taken under the Terrorism Act was not dependent on the proscription order.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. The content contravenes the Terrorism Act 2000. Action should be taken whether or not proscription has taken place.

My noble friend Lord Marlesford referred to the Muslim Brotherhood. As he said, this issue is under review. The Prime Minister commissioned an internal review of the Muslim Brotherhood. The review considered its philosophies, activities, impact and influence on our national interests at home and abroad. This was an internal review intended to inform government policy. We expect to be able to say something publicly about its conclusions in due course. I appreciate that that may not go quite far enough for my noble friend, but suffice it to say that the work of Sir John Jenkins has been completed and is now being reviewed.

We are conscious of the particular nature of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a party that is in government in some countries—I think in Morocco, at least. We need an extra level of due diligence in reviewing this, but we certainly take on board my noble friend’s point. If we did not think that there was a problem, we would not have asked Sir John Jenkins, a distinguished diplomat with considerable experience in the Middle East, to undertake a review. We look forward to that review taking place and to being able to say more about it.

Although the interesting contributions made by my noble friend Lord Elton and by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, were not particularly directed at me, I will say in passing that I think we all feel that respect and courtesy are very important elements. When people make light of the faith that I adhere to, I find it hurtful and not comfortable. However, there is a world of difference between that approach and taking the actions that we saw in Paris. I thought that one of the most heroic—if I may use that term carefully—parts of what happened were the actions of the Muslim personal protection officer to the journalist who had been under threat. He lost his life at the hands of the terrorists. I am sure that he was as offended as any other person of his faith would have been, but he chose to defend their right to speak freely.

We have put forward the arguments for proscription of these groups and demonstrated our condemnation of their activities and our support for the efforts of members of the international community to tackle terrorism. I commend this order to the House.