Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, having listened to the detailed arguments, which were extremely well put, if I may say so, the message to me is definitely that all this looks as though it is going to discourage people from saving. If the Minister cannot reply to what we have heard, that is a very worrying message to be sending out.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I would like to add one final word. Could the Minister reflect for us briefly on one of the wider consequences of this move? When tax credits were set up, they were, as he will know, designed to replicate work in many ways and to replicate the tax system, so it is not the case that having savings is not taken into account at all. Under tax credits, genuine income from savings is taken into account, and that is the way it should be, but under this new system it is not just the very richest who are affected. Once people reach £6,000 worth of savings, they will face, as my noble friend Lady Drake described, a heavily punitive rate of effective taxation on that. I wonder what the effect of that is on the marginal deduction rates as they move into work.

I ask the noble Lord to do two things. One is to comment on how he has factored that into the effective incentives to move into work in a whole variety of situations. Secondly, could he say whether he is not worried at all that it might push people back into an approach of dependency on the state as opposed to their trying to share that responsibility between themselves and the state, which the tax credits system encourages them to do?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, Amendments 22B and 22F would exclude from the calculation of capital any savings placed into an individual savings account or other prescribed accounts of a claimant who is in work, or who has been in work in the past 12 months, up to a maximum limit to be set no lower than £50,000. It begs a really very simple question: should the taxpayer support someone who has savings of £50,000? That is the question that is being asked here, and I think it is a question about amounts. The figures we are using were taken over from the existing benefits system, and they were raised a little over five years ago in April 2006. Those figures were doubled from £8,000 at the top to £16,000, and the starting rate from £3,000 to £6,000, so those figures do move around. I accept that determining what the right figure is here is not an exact science. Indeed, one of the things I am keen to have is a responsive system that starts to get research and understand judgments such as what the right figure is here.

I understand exactly the motivation of the two amendments, which is to encourage low-income workers to save. The argument comes down to how much we and the taxpayer can afford. I gave some figures when we debated the previous group of amendments. I will remind noble Lords that if we had an upper capital limit of £50,000, it would cost £90 million a year, which we simply do not have. Under our proposals, only when a claimant, or joint claimants, has £16,000 or more will the entitlement to universal credit cease; and only 13 per cent of households have this much in savings. That is why the figure is not as arbitrary as some noble Lords indicated.

I was asked a series of questions. I will have to add to my letter to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, to get right the position of children leaving care. Clearly, a child's income and capital are wholly disregarded in the system. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about the treatment of ISA interest. Universal credit will replicate the capital rules for means-tested benefits by using a tariff income. It is not possible to read across from the tax credit system. As noble Lords know, tariff income is not—and is not meant to be—the equivalent of the actual income that you might earn on that amount of capital. The figure includes an estimate of how much you should be prepared to run down your capital while you look for support from the state.

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[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I support this amendment very warmly indeed, and put to the Minister circumstances that arose frequently in the area that I used to represent in the other place and that still arise in rural areas, not only in Wales but also in areas such as the Lake District and Cornwall, where it is very difficult for young people to buy a first home. Indeed, it is so difficult that unless a parent is in a position to make some contribution towards a deposit, it is next to impossible to buy a first home. The question that goes through my mind is: if a parent has money allocated for this purpose, is he or she going to pass it to their offspring to buy a house, knowing that if it stands in their offspring’s name in a bank it may prevent that person from getting benefits?

In areas such as those to which I have referred, the major industry is often tourism, which is highly seasonal. This means that people are moving in and out of work frequently. If one takes the combination of ultra-high property values, which have often arisen because of the pressure of second homes, the relatively low income levels that obtain within the economy, and the seasonal nature of the employment available, particularly for young people looking for their first job—and one wants to encourage them to take every job opportunity there is—one surely has to make sure that the rules and regulations do not militate against them getting their foot on the first rung of the ladder in order to be the owner of their home. I put it to the Minister that somehow or other that has to be safeguarded within the system.

[Baroness Sherlock]

I would like to make one brief point about the sums of money that are increasingly needed to save for a house. It was reported in the Guardian on 17 September this year that the average deposit has gone up tenfold in the last 20 years, from £6,793 in 1990 to over £65,000 now. The same article went on to quote a banker from First Direct, which I presume must know these things, who said:

“The average deposit … has actually risen more than twice as fast as house prices and almost four times as fast as income”.

Could the Minister therefore think for a moment about whether the inflation in the savings limit properly takes account of the specific house-related inflation, and within that the specific deposit-related inflation, that we are seeing?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, Amendments 22C and 22D would exclude from the calculation of capital prescribed amounts saved for a deposit on the purchase of accommodation for personal use where the claimant is in work or has been in work in the previous 12 months. I can of course see the benefits of encouraging low-earning families to become homeowners, but at present these amendments would be difficult if not impossible to implement efficiently in practice. As the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, pre-empted my argumentation, I will not go into this in depth, but I must say that one would need both the provision of a savings vehicle, which would in effect be exclusively for the purchase of a house, as well as adequate numbers of people wanting to save in this particular way, for that market to work. I do not think there is any necessary block on creating a vehicle like that at some stage in the future, and it would be up to a Government to look at that in the future. Right now, given our constraints, I do not think we are in a position to do it. As noble Lords have heard and as the noble Baroness suggested, these are not necessarily issues of principle; they are issues of affordability and the envelope that we have to introduce universal credit. I remind noble Lords that we have obtained an envelope of £4 billion per annum to give to people in receipt of universal credit. I am not netting it off against other changes, but that is what the universal credit does. Finding extra money for this, that and the other cannot be done just by a wave of the hand. It will be tough to get extra money for desirable things.

It is essential that we get the architecture of a structure that we can use to help and motivate people. If we cannot afford particular things or it would be desirable to develop particular processes, that is fine and we can do it, but right now we do not have those resources. For that core reason, I hope noble Lords will appreciate why we do not support these amendments, and I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, I do not want to delay the Committee. I am sure there are many people in this room who have more experience of these issues than I do. However, during 16 years chairing the youth department of Toynbee Hall down in Tower Hamlets we came across quite a lot of problems with moneylenders in particular. I strongly support fortnightly payment. Monthly payment will give much more opportunity for unscrupulous traders to profit from budgeters who are perhaps not very experienced.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I have little to add to the rather remarkable contribution made by my noble friend Lady Lister, but I want to address a couple of points.

First, I was delighted to see the DWP research report, Perceptions of Welfare Reform and Universal Credit, and I commend the Minister and the department for taking this kind of research so seriously. The foreword to that report says:

“The Department for Work and Pensions … is committed to involving users throughout the development of Universal Credit, from setting out the criteria for a good experience to detailed design decisions. This user involvement helps ensure issues are known, understood and mitigated as the Universal Credit system is being built”.

I want to commend that. I thought it was a very good decision. However, it means that if you ask people and they give you answers, it really is wise to listen to them. Having sought the opinion of those who are going to be using the system, and having been told so clearly that only a small minority appreciated monthly payments as a route and the majority clearly felt it was a problem, is the Minister at all persuaded by that?

I have two other points to add. I am particularly concerned about the impact on those who are in that territory between work and out of work. The most compelling argument made today was the fact that if only half those people are paid monthly at the moment, the whole idea that moving to monthly payments mimics work simply falls flat. If people are currently paid weekly or fortnightly, they could be in the bizarre position of having their wages paid weekly or monthly and their universal credit paid monthly, which seems ridiculous. At the moment with tax credits people can opt to be paid weekly.

I declare an interest as having been involved in advising Ministers on the design of tax credits, as noble Lords will know. I can understand the desire of the centre to want to simplify this. I really understand why having everybody on monthly payments would be an awful lot easier for the process, as well as the design problems in terms of processing capacity of having people opt into a variety of options. However, this feels so important that if the noble Lord is so committed—and I know he is—to the aims of universal credit in supporting people in work and to getting the architecture right, it would seem that this is a fairly fundamental piece of the architecture, and we get it wrong at our peril.

I have one final point. I spent some years working with single parents. Most of them had come out of relationships or marriages. One of the things that they always said they liked about being single—there were many things they did not like that were very hard—was that they could control the money. I heard many of them describe the struggles that they had had to protect the money coming into the household and to have it spent on the children. They described a whole range of situations that I am not in any way suggesting are typical, but they are none the less not invisible or irrelevant either. Some said that they quite often had a situation where their partners would periodically go out on a binge and spend the money. There were people who had quite a bit of money who would say: “I fed the children on child benefit till they got back”.

One thing about credits being paid directly to them and coming in weekly was that at least they knew there was another payment coming along soon. If in this situation one partner spends the money unwisely, it is an awful long wait until the next payment comes in. Would the Minister consider that alongside some of the later issues we are going to discuss about the Social Fund and single payments being made only to one partner or to a joint account? This is an area of which the Minister would be well advised to take careful consideration.

[Baroness Campbell of Surbiton]

My Lords, I would also like to support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and congratulate her on her first amendment. What a good first amendment. Disability charities, including the full membership of the Disability Benefits Consortium, have expressed grave concerns to me that many disabled claimants, particularly those with mental health problems or learning disabilities, will struggle to manage their budgeting over monthly intervals. With the proposed replacement of the discretionary Social Fund and by confusing an unpredictable plethora of local schemes, accessing crisis payment when budgeting problems arise will be very hard for this group of people also.

I support a man with mild learning and behavioural difficulties. He can just about manage his two-weekly payments and often, at the end of the two weeks, it is up to his friends—normally me—to sub him until the end of that two-week period. I have no idea how he will manage on a monthly basis. He falls under the radar of most help and I know that he would not seek it anywhere but me. So it also puts a burden on families, friends and other poor relatives who are often in the same situation to make up the shortfall. I support the noble Baroness and would like to know what the Minister has in mind for this particular group of people to cope with a monthly payment.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, Amendment 29 specifies that deductions from the claimant’s maximum amount of universal credit should include an amount in respect of prescribed types of unearned income calculated in the same way as the deductions made in respect of earnings. As drafted, Clause 8 allows for a reduction in respect of unearned income to be calculated “in the prescribed manner”. The Bill therefore already allows for the manner of such reductions to be specified in regulations. This could include, where appropriate, the same calculation as for earnings.

As we set out in the White Paper, claimants will have their universal credit withdrawn according to a single taper rate after appropriate disregards. The latest assumptions on the earnings disregard have been set out in a new policy briefing note which was published today. Further analysis is provided in an updated version of the impact assessment for universal credit, which was published not very soon, but this afternoon.

With regard to income other than earnings, we have today released a new policy briefing note which confirms that statutory sick pay and statutory maternity, paternity and adoption pay will be treated as earnings. We do not intend to treat either ESA—or ESA equivalent—or maternity allowance as earnings. They are not treated as earnings in the current system; they are benefits and are treated as such. Nor do we propose to alter the current treatment of maternity allowance in the benefits system, where it is taken into account in full. This is because maternity allowance is one of a number of benefits which exist to replace income for people who are out of work. It therefore addresses the same need as universal credit for mothers who cannot work because they are giving birth to their children. We do not believe it is right for the Government to pay twice to meet the same need.

The income briefing note also explains our wider approach. In general, where a claimant has income at their disposal to meet their living costs, such as spousal maintenance or payouts from an occupational pension, these payments will be taken fully into account. However, we need to make exceptions to this general rule while ensuring that the system is kept as simple as possible. We will therefore disregard certain income types in full where they are paid due to additional costs or expenses that a claimant has. This would apply to additional payments due to being disabled, such as DLA or various local authority payments, or for looking after children, including child benefit and fostering allowances. We will also disregard in full certain payments which would be disproportionately costly to take into account. These will include the value of payments in kind or charitable payments.

I turn now to the proposed subsections in Amendment 30 which would require the Secretary of State to carry out and publish a review of the impact of a taper rate on universal credit claimants and their work incentives one year after the Act comes into force. As the revised impact assessment sets out, we expect the single taper together with the earnings disregards to improve work incentives significantly. With regard to the participation tax rate, the number of households who lose between 70 per cent and all their earnings through taxation and benefit withdrawal on moving into 10 hours of work will fall by 1.2 million under universal credit. Under the current system, around half a million individuals in low-paid work would lose more than 80 per cent of an increase in their earnings because of higher tax or withdrawn benefits. Virtually no households would lose 80 per cent under universal credit. On reasonable assumptions, the combined impact of take-up and entitlements will lift around 900,000 individuals out of poverty, including more than 350,000 children and 550,000 working-age adults.

These are significant outcomes and we will be monitoring and evaluating universal credit to confirm that they are achieved. However, this is an ongoing process and we expect that it will take longer than a year to develop a sufficient body of evidence on which to draw firm conclusions. As a result, we do not think it appropriate—

[Baroness Sherlock]

I thank the Minister. I am trying to look through the revised impact assessment, as I am sure will other noble Lords. I hope he has had the opportunity to read it before I have; I would be very disappointed if he had not. I wonder, therefore, if he would give us the benefit of that experience. Regarding the figure he has just cited of 200,000 children being lifted out of poverty by entitlement alone—and I see he has had to resort to modelling take-up which he has always previously refused to do on the grounds that it was not necessary—could he remind us what the previous estimate was of the number of children being lifted out of poverty?

[Lord Freud]

Yes, I can help noble Lords. There is a small decline for adults in this impact assessment compared with the last one. It is down from 600,000 to 550,000. However, the figure for children is unchanged at 350,000.

[Baroness Sherlock]

Is it unchanged?

[Lord Freud]

Yes, for children lifted out of poverty, the figure 350,000 is unchanged. I am sorry; I can only tell noble Lords what is in the document, which I confirm that I did read over the weekend. Let me nail down the reason why I do not want a formal annual review process. I do not think that that is the right way to go when we have something as sophisticated as the universal credit, given the impact of the different delivery mechanisms, taper rates, disregards and conditionality. I will be talking to the Committee quite soon about how we could assess the system most effectively. I accept assessment and regular assessment, and I am looking for support from this Committee in that process.

[Baroness Sherlock]

I thank the Minister. I wanted to phrase my question more precisely because I think I may have confused him. The improvised impact assessment says on page 18 that changes in modelled entitlements will lift approximately 200,000 children out of poverty. The figure of 350,000 children that he quoted included take-up modelling. My understanding is that previously he has given us figures that did not include take-up modelling. I am trying to contrast the current steady state figure without any assumed change in take-up compared to the previous steady state figure.

[Lord Freud]

I can absolutely confirm that the figures included take-up and are the same figures, so there is no change there.

[Baroness Sherlock]

I am so sorry. What was the previous figure, not including take-up modelling?

[Lord Freud]

They are exactly the same—200,000 and 400,000 adults. Those figures have not changed. Let me come back to the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, on the target rate of the taper. I do not think it is right to have a target rate of what the optimum figure is, and I will not talk about the iron triangle today. I will spare the Committee. A lot of factors are involved in what the optimum rate will be. We do not know, so it would be foolish to set a target, whether it is 55 or 65 per cent. If noble Lords want my opinion, I think 65 per cent is too high and a future Government—when they have some money—would be smart to lower it. But by then I would hope that we would know exactly what the optimum figures were. When we know that, a smart Government would move to it. It would be wrong to set a target when we do not know what the optimum figure is. I agree that we need to be very sophisticated in our understanding of how people behave and the impacts of universal credit. I take on board the spirit of this amendment in the sense that we do need to assess it. I do not think this is the right way and I hope to be able to discuss with this Committee better ways of assessing it. I am hoping for some real enthusiasm behind those ways as well.

I hope that these answers have helped to clarify our intentions in these areas. They are really important areas, and I urge noble Lords not to press their amendments.