Scotland Bill

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

It is nice to welcome back to the Dispatch Box the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. Clause 54, to put it simply, will allow public sector operators to bid for and be awarded rail franchises specified and let by the Scottish Ministers. This will provide greater freedom to decide which organisations are eligible to bid for franchises in Scotland and fulfil the Scottish Government’s aspiration to allow public sector operators to participate in the rail franchising market in Scotland. At present, and as with the rest of the UK, not-for-profit entities are not precluded from being rail franchises under the Railways Act 1993. Once Clause 54 is commenced, not-for-profit entities, irrespective of whether they are public or private organisations, will be able to bid for rail franchises, just as other public sector operators will also be able to. As such, the Government do not consider that Amendment 63 is necessary.

Amendment 64 would allow discretion as to whether public sector operators, on commencement of Clause 54, can bid in respect of live procurements where an invitation to tender has already been issued. There are currently no live procurements for Scottish rail franchises. There are two current Scottish franchises: the Caledonian Sleeper services and the ScotRail services. It is the responsibility of the Scottish Government to manage the tendering of these contracts. The ScotRail franchise, for example, the biggest in Scotland, operates over 2,200 train services each day, delivering 92 million passenger journeys each year. In December, it announced a £475 million investment in its rolling stock over three years.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

I am listening carefully to what the Minister has to say. Under the arrangements that he has just described, would it therefore have been possible for the east coast main line to bid for running the east coast franchise, which of course it was disbarred from doing? That is, of course, a cross-border railway and it was operating very efficiently, although it was not allowed to submit a tender to run the railway into the future.

[Lord Dunlop]

Obviously the noble Baroness has stated the facts. I do not want to add to that because she is a great expert in these matters. I am simply talking about this amendment and what would be possible in the future.

To go back to what I was saying, both existing Scottish-related franchises have been in operation since April 2015 and their contracts are for 15 and 10 years respectively. The ScotRail franchise has a break clause after five years—

[Baroness Quin]

I am not clear about the implications of what the Minister is saying. He seems to be saying now that it is possible for not-for-profit and public companies to bid for tender to run a railway. Is that the case? It was certainly not the case recently when the east coast railway was not allowed to bid for the continuation of the east coast service. Is he simply describing the situation as it will be in Scotland or as it exists at the moment, not just for Scotland but for the UK? Is he also describing the situation for a cross-border service, which is what the east coast main line is?

[Lord Dunlop]

Just to clarify, the clause that we are talking about relates to Scotland-only franchises. As I said earlier, not-for-profit entities are not precluded from being rail franchisees under the Railways Act 1993.

To return to what I was saying, both franchises have been in operation since April.

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Moved by

[Baroness Quin]

73B: After Clause 64, insert the following new Clause—
“Political and economic impact of this Act on the United Kingdom
The Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers shall, in exercising any power or order provided for under this Act, consider—(a) the impact of exercising the power or order on the political and economic strength of the United Kingdom as a whole, and(b) the importance of strengthening the United Kingdom as a whole, both politically and economically.”

[Baroness Quin]

Amendments 73B and 73C are in my name. I am glad there is cross-party support for Amendment 73C from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, and the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle, whom I am pleased to see in his place. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has also co-signed Amendment 73B.

Both amendments have been tabled to highlight the issues in the Bill which have implications, and possible implications, for the rest of the United Kingdom. In particular, Amendment 73B refers to the areas bordering Scotland—the north-east of England and Cumbria. Amendment 73C asks for a report from Ministers within a year of the passing of the Act, and an impact assessment of its measures on the areas adjoining Scotland. In particular, it seeks an impact assessment of Parts 2 to 5.

Amendment 73B stresses the importance in implementing the Bill of having regard to the need to help promote the political and economic well-being of the UK as a whole. Many of us are very happy that the referendum result was a strong no, but people in Scotland voted to maintain the United Kingdom in its present geographical form because they wanted to see a successful UK in the future. A commitment to ensure the success of the UK as a whole is therefore important, as well as delivering on the Smith commission and the specific devolution proposals which the Bill contains.

When I tabled these amendments, I had not realised that so many of today’s debates would in effect be about them. Many of the debates have been about not only respecting devolution but looking at ways of strengthening the UK as a whole. We had an interesting debate about the future of the British Transport Police. Whatever comes out at the end of this process, I think we would all agree that we need a system which ensures that there is effective policing of our transport network, including on cross-border trains. I say that with some feeling, given that every train I travel on to get from my home in Northumberland to this House is a cross-border train. I certainly want to see the highest safety standards on those trains. Similarly, I would like us to commit ourselves to ensuring that the UK as a whole is successful and, as far as we can, to ensuring its overall political and economic harmony.

When I spoke at Second Reading I said that I supported the Bill, and I do. These amendments, which are probing, do not seek to damage the Bill but arise from the concern we have expressed about the need to promote economic and social solidarity across the UK. A lot of today’s discussion has been about the Smith commission and the extent to which it is set in stone. These amendments do not contradict the commission in any way, but they add to the requirements on Ministers regarding the UK as a whole. They would require that the need to improve the union of the UK is adhered to.

We are all influenced by our backgrounds and our ties with particular parts of the UK and, not surprisingly, as a north-easterner I am keen to see that the north-east prospers in the future. It has had a lot of economic upheaval in the past and has been very innovative in recent years, but it certainly needs to improve economically. I would not want any Bill before Parliament to result in worsening the position of one of the UK’s poorer regions, so I do not apologise at all for tabling an amendment which is very much related to the north-east and Cumbria.

There were concerns in the north-east at the prospect of a yes vote in the referendum—concerns about what having an international border on our doorstep would mean for us, given the uncertainties about currency and immigration controls, for example. The two countries might have very different immigration policies. There were also concerns about people crossing the border each day for work—in both directions—and people wanting to access health services on either side of the border. Given the outcome of the referendum, we should certainly make a strong commitment to ensuring that people on both sides of the border have access to the facilities and services they need, and that those facilities and services are of a high standard.

Later in our proceedings we will be looking at air passenger duty, but here I will raise one transport issue that is of concern to people on both sides of the border and seems to me a prime candidate for a cross-border project which would help people on both sides of the border: the improvement of the A1 between Newcastle and Edinburgh. When driving last week up to Haddington in East Lothian, I was again very much aware that north of Morpeth almost until you get to Edinburgh, the road is a mixture of dual and single carriageway. That possibly explains why so many of the accidents on that road have been head-on collisions—because people get confused about whether they are on a dual section of the A1 or a single section. The road is, ironically, entitled the Great North Road, but it is anything but that in its present state. What we do not want to see as a result of devolution is less prosperous areas of the UK losing out further, and we need to make a conscious commitment to avoid that happening. That will involve lots of practical measures.

The amendments might seem rather sweeping, but many different issues could be encompassed within them. Earlier, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, talked about the tribunal system and the usefulness of being able to transfer tribunals from one part of the UK to another in order to avoid backlogs. That seemed to me a small but rather important example of how we should ensure that the UK works better as result of what we are doing.

I would like the Government, in responding, to say two things. First, how do they intend to ensure that the UK will work more successfully in future? In particular, what cross-border projects are they in favour of to ensure that there is some enthusiasm across the border about improving roads, infrastructure and other facilities on which people on both sides of the border rely? I certainly hope that the Government will look sympathetically at the spirit of these amendments, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak in support of Amendments 73B and 73C, to which my name is attached. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, that the Bill concerns the whole of the United Kingdom and not just Scotland. It has to be considered not just from the perspective of the two Governments—the Scottish Government and the UK Government—but from the perspective of the people living in those parts of the United Kingdom that share a border with Scotland.

Although I support strongly the principles behind the Bill and welcome the proposals to devolve powers, responsibilities and further tax-raising capabilities to Scotland, I am very aware that the level of public spending on Scotland is significantly higher per capita in Scotland than it is in the north of England. To give the figures from the latest year for which they are available, in 2014-15 in the north-east of England the total identifiable expenditure on services per head was £9,347, in the north-west of England it was £9,197, in Yorkshire and the Humber it was £8,660, but in Scotland it was £10,374. These are very different levels of per capita spending, and they need to be explained so that the general public understands the basis for them. I look forward to seeing and considering the fiscal framework when it is published shortly, which I hope will explain these differences. We will then see what impact any changes will have on the operation of the Barnett formula and how far the Scottish Government will need to use their powers over income tax to pay for better public services, where they decide to have them, than are available in the rest of the UK.

The two amendments, Amendments 73B and 73C, reflect this problem. The UK and Scottish Governments should not proceed by disregarding the impact of the fiscal settlement on the rest of the United Kingdom. I hope that both Governments will understand the need for the whole of the UK to be strengthened, not just one part at the expense of another. In that respect, it is very important, as the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, explained, for there to be a report by both Governments on the actual impact on the areas south of the border. I hope that the Minister will recommend that it should become an annual statement, as it would aid public understanding of the devolution agreement.

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[Lord Dunlop]

First, I echo what the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said about the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, who I know to be a doughty champion for the north-east. I support the sentiment behind the amendment; Governments should always consider the impact on the union and, in particular, the economy, when they make decisions. Likewise, before and after making policy, Governments should as a matter of course assess whether any particular region is impacted disproportionately. That is not just my view; it is this Government’s stated policy and our approach in practice. Not only that, but there are opportunities for Parliament to scrutinise the Government as they do this and hold us to account. I welcome and encourage that scrutiny.

The UK Government have considered carefully the impact of devolution on the union as a whole throughout the development process for this Bill. The commission set up by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, had that at its heart. One of the principles under which the commission operated was to,

“not cause detriment to the UK as a whole nor to any of its constituent parts”.

As the Committee will be aware, the UK Government and the Smith commission rejected candidates for devolution—for example, the devolution of national insurance. I believe it is right that they did, precisely because devolution of such areas could undermine the union. However, the UK Government also believe that devolution to the Scottish Parliament will make it more accountable to the people who elect it. Our objective has always been to encourage that accountability without undermining the union. Let me reassure the Committee that this Government do not require a legal requirement in the Scotland Bill to ensure that we take these considerations into account.

I hope I can give similar reassurance on how the UK Government consider the impact of policy-making on specific regions and locations. This Government are committed to rebalancing growth across the country, from creating a northern powerhouse to strengthening our great city regions. A number of noble Lords mentioned this. To give a specific example, the UK Government are well aware of the potential impact of the devolution of air passenger duty. That is why we have issued a discussion paper and consultation to engage stakeholders and find a workable solution. There are procedures in place. These policies are scrutinised in Parliament and open to challenge, especially in the other place where MPs can represent their constituency interests in Parliament.

The noble Baroness suggested joint working on projects on both sides of the border. I entirely agree with that sentiment. The borderlands initiative is a good example of that sort of work. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised reporting. I am very happy to look at it as a subject and at how it could be further improved. I am always happy to meet, and I would be very happy to meet him.

While I fully support the sentiment behind these amendments, I do not believe requirements in legislation are necessary. The UK Government are committed to this approach. The fiscal framework and how we put into practice the no-detriment principle were raised by a number of noble Lords. I am certain that we will return to them on our next day in Committee. I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and to noble Lords who spoke in favour of the amendments and their spirit. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord McAvoy for his sympathetic reply to the concerns that have been raised. I hope that the Government’s commitment to the union and to cross-border projects and ventures will be translated into reality in many practical ways. We look forward to seeing the results of that in coming months and years.

The noble Lord, Lord Curry, mentioned concern that we sometimes have in the north-east that the northern powerhouse seems to be concentrating on areas to the south of us, particularly on Manchester and Leeds. I wish them every success, but we wish to be fully part of the initiative. I am glad that the noble Lord made that point. I am glad that these issues have been aired. I hope that the Government will take them to heart. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 73B withdrawn.