Queen’s Speech
Baroness Quin Excerpts(3 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Quin (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I add my congratulations to both noble Baronesses, the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, and my former colleague as a Member of Parliament, my noble friend Lady Merron, on their inspiring maiden speeches.
In his opening speech, I was also pleased to hear the Minister speak of his deep attachment to our union and the UK family. Those sentiments have been echoed by many powerful speeches. I was surprised, however, that he repeated the incorrect claim that the European referendum was the biggest democratic exercise in our history. That is becoming a bit of a hoary old chestnut, given that the figures clearly show that it was not. The 1992 general election saw more votes cast, when the population was actually smaller than it is now and there was a higher turnout. Turnout was also higher at some other previous general elections. I ask the Minister to ensure that that government claim is not repeated. It would be good, too, if the Government remembered that the referendum result was close and not pretend that it was an overwhelming victory. That is insulting and insensitive to Scotland, Northern Ireland and, indeed, many communities across England and Wales.
I want to say something about the experience of Covid in the light of our devolution settlement. I very much respect our devolution settlement, but I do not understand why there could not have been better co-ordination and more joint action and joint statements across the UK. I have not, obviously, been part of the inside story, so I do not quite know why that situation occurred. I know that Wales felt excluded by Westminster from time to time, and I certainly pay tribute to the way in which First Minister Mark Drakeford has performed calmly and impressively throughout. I imagine, too, that Nicola Sturgeon’s obvious dislike of doing anything at a UK level probably has not helped co-ordination. However, for those of us living near the borders of the UK’s nations, the situation causes a lot of difficulty. For example, the recent announcement on international travel at first applied only to England. Yet for many of us in the border area between England and Scotland, the most convenient airport is Edinburgh and we were left wondering whether we could travel. I urge better co-ordination in future and, if possible, that statements be made on the same day regarding the position of different parts of the UK, so that we know how to plan and move forward.
My main concern, however, is about the part that referendums should play in our parliamentary democracy —an issue to which the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, referred. While its immediate relevance arises from the SNP’s demand for another independence referendum, we need to reflect more widely and deeply on the issue. I do not know what has happened to the Government’s constitution, democracy and rights commission or the mini-commissions that were supposed to replace it. Perhaps the Minister can update us. However, the role of referendums is something that such a body or bodies should look at, including perhaps our House of Lords report on the subject a few years ago, when the Constitution Committee did some good work.
We need to think about difficult matters such as what issues are suitable for referendums, as well as issues such as thresholds and turnouts. On a crucial issue such as the future of the union, which affects us all, would it be acceptable for the outcome to be decided on a handful of votes? The noble Lord, Lord Caine, spoke about the nightmare scenario that that could cause. We also need to learn from the Brexit experience. People were asked to vote without any idea of what the details of the deal on the future relationship between the EU and the UK would look like.
That is particularly relevant in terms of Scotland because, if it had voted for separation in 2014, we would all still have been part of the EU, with a customs union, a single market and free movement. Now we are faced, particularly those living near the border in northern England, with a hard EU border on our doorstep that will make Brexit look like a walk in the park. I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, said about that. For many of us, losing our European identity is painful, but how much more so would it be if our UK union broke up without most of us having any say whatever.
Finally, I support the fresh look at the constitution and our constitutional arrangements advocated by Gordon Brown. I hope that the Government will engage openly in such an approach.
Queen’s Speech
Baroness Quin Excerpts(4 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Quin (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate both maiden speakers in this debate. As a born-and-bred Whitley Bay girl, I particularly appreciate the title chosen by the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, and share with him a deep attachment to the region that we both come from. I look forward to hearing from him in future and from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower.
As has just been pointed out by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, there is a promise in the gracious Speech to create a constitution, democracy and rights commission, an interesting proposal which so far is just that, without any further details concerning its remit or composition. However, given that the immediate backcloth to this Queen’s Speech was the general election of 12 December, perhaps an early task of the commission could be to look at that campaign and see what lessons should be learned for the future health of our democracy and the future conduct of elections.
Yesterday, in a truly excellent maiden speech, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, said that she wanted politics to recover from its recent battering and turn away from the world of lies, exaggerations, voter distrust and fake news. I have to say that I share her concerns entirely. Some examples of such practices have to be laid at the door of the Prime Minister, whose contradictory and colourful statements over the years have either entertained or, more frequently in my case, deeply alarmed us. He began the election campaign by saying that he had not wanted an election, even though I seem to remember that he desperately tried to get it through Parliament three times. He also said that he could not get his EU deal through Parliament, even though it had passed its first hurdle and was ready to be scrutinised by both Houses of Parliament. Perhaps it was the scrutiny that alarmed him, the Bill having managed to get through its first stage.
But there were other examples during the campaign that were not the direct responsibility of the Prime Minister which I found just as disquieting; for example, the doctoring of a TV interview into a fake video to make my right honourable friend Keir Starmer look clueless about Brexit when the opposite was true and he had given a fluent interview on the subject; or the fake Margaret Beckett website; or the so-called independent fact-checking website which turned out not to be independent at all but the work of one particular political party. I say “one particular political party” because I am not trying to give a party-political speech; I am trying to highlight malpractice that we should avoid in future. If there are examples of other parties, including my own, pursuing such a course of action, I would condemn that as equally unacceptable. Perhaps the party leaders could come together, either through the constitution commission or in some other way, to agree that such malpractice should be stopped and to recognise that if democracy is to survive in a world of fake news, standards of factual accuracy should prevail.
The Government talk in the gracious Speech of governing for all. In his introduction, the Prime Minister sets an ambitious goal of delivering
“for the whole of our great Union, investing in and levelling up every part of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.”
Surely that is an aim that we can all subscribe to, but if the Government are really to bring people together, they have a responsibility to avoid triumphalism in their approach and to recognise that, although they have a handsome majority in the House of Commons, it has been brought about by our electoral system. Overall, the Conservative vote increased by only 1.2%. The Liberal Democrats, who are said to have suffered a crushing defeat—it certainly looks like that in many ways—saw their overall vote increase by five points. Of course, the Government were hugely helped by the unpopularity of the Labour leadership, as my noble friend Lord Reid and others have said. I was struck by this day after day when campaigning in my own part of the world. I am sure that was the reason the Prime Minister really wanted an election: so that he could capitalise on that unpopularity and use a majority to claim a mandate for all kinds of other policies, including Brexit, even though it is clear from looking at the votes cast that those who voted for parties that were either anti-Brexit or committed to another referendum won 53% of the vote as against 47% on the other side—an almost exact reversal of the 2016 referendum.
The Prime Minister says in his introduction that he is humbled by the trust that voters have placed in the Government. I can only hope that he really means what he says and, to borrow Labour’s phrase, will genuinely promote the interests of the many and not the few.
Brexit: Negotiations
Baroness Quin Excerpts(6 years ago)
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Baroness Quin (Lab)
My Lords, my voice is not in great shape at the moment, so I am quite relieved that I have only four minutes in which to speak. I would also like to welcome the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, to the House. I am not surprised that his speech contained some controversy, as I defy anyone to make an uncontroversial speech about Brexit in the current circumstances.
A number of questions are raised in the course of considering the situation that we face. Is the deal that we have in front of us better than no deal? The answer must be yes. Does it deliver exactly the same benefits as we currently have? The answer to that is clearly no, even though we were promised such a deal by the former Brexit Secretary, David Davis. Does the deal meet the six tests of the Labour Opposition? Clearly, it does not. Is it as good a situation as we have now as members of the EU? Clearly, it is not.
Like others, I have sympathy for the Prime Minister in her current predicament. She has worked hard in the negotiations to try to get a deal that honours the outcome of the referendum and at the same time does not let the country down too badly economically, environmentally and on co-operation with justice and home affairs and all the other areas of co-operation within the EU which are of such huge benefit to our country. None the less, she has ended up pleasing almost no one.
We have heard today from representatives of the DUP in Northern Ireland about their concerns. I know that they are very concerned not to endanger in any way the union with the UK. Yet as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, pointed out, the people of Northern Ireland voted to remain and, in many ways, membership of the EU is a good way forward for Northern Ireland. It does not break bonds between Northern Ireland and the UK, yet at the same time it allows a frictionless relationship, both in trade and other ways, between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Therefore, in many ways, it is the ideal situation.
The Prime Minister is under considerable criticism from within her own ranks, but some of that criticism seems absurd. There are complaints that the EU and the Commission are bullying. In fact—and this answers a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, who was somehow hoping that we could appeal over the Commission to the member Governments of the EU —the Commission is carrying out a mandate from the 27 countries. We should not forget that.
We also hear complaints that we will be rule-takers and not rule-makers. We can hardly say that we do not want to belong to this organisation and at the same time complain that we do not have a seat at the table when it comes to making rules.
We are in a difficult situation and, sadly, Parliament and the Government seem disunited. Therefore, finding a situation through Parliament, although that would be a good way forward, looks very unlikely. For that reason, I join with those people who feel that, given that this process was begun by a referendum, the people need the opportunity to decide whether this deal is the way forward or whether they would prefer, after all, to remain as part of the European Union.
Scotland Bill
Baroness Quin Excerpts(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Dunlop
It is nice to welcome back to the Dispatch Box the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. Clause 54, to put it simply, will allow public sector operators to bid for and be awarded rail franchises specified and let by the Scottish Ministers. This will provide greater freedom to decide which organisations are eligible to bid for franchises in Scotland and fulfil the Scottish Government’s aspiration to allow public sector operators to participate in the rail franchising market in Scotland. At present, and as with the rest of the UK, not-for-profit entities are not precluded from being rail franchises under the Railways Act 1993. Once Clause 54 is commenced, not-for-profit entities, irrespective of whether they are public or private organisations, will be able to bid for rail franchises, just as other public sector operators will also be able to. As such, the Government do not consider that Amendment 63 is necessary.
Amendment 64 would allow discretion as to whether public sector operators, on commencement of Clause 54, can bid in respect of live procurements where an invitation to tender has already been issued. There are currently no live procurements for Scottish rail franchises. There are two current Scottish franchises: the Caledonian Sleeper services and the ScotRail services. It is the responsibility of the Scottish Government to manage the tendering of these contracts. The ScotRail franchise, for example, the biggest in Scotland, operates over 2,200 train services each day, delivering 92 million passenger journeys each year. In December, it announced a £475 million investment in its rolling stock over three years.
Baroness Quin (Lab)
I am listening carefully to what the Minister has to say. Under the arrangements that he has just described, would it therefore have been possible for the east coast main line to bid for running the east coast franchise, which of course it was disbarred from doing? That is, of course, a cross-border railway and it was operating very efficiently, although it was not allowed to submit a tender to run the railway into the future.
Lord Dunlop
Obviously the noble Baroness has stated the facts. I do not want to add to that because she is a great expert in these matters. I am simply talking about this amendment and what would be possible in the future.
To go back to what I was saying, both existing Scottish-related franchises have been in operation since April 2015 and their contracts are for 15 and 10 years respectively. The ScotRail franchise has a break clause after five years—
Baroness Quin
I am not clear about the implications of what the Minister is saying. He seems to be saying now that it is possible for not-for-profit and public companies to bid for tender to run a railway. Is that the case? It was certainly not the case recently when the east coast railway was not allowed to bid for the continuation of the east coast service. Is he simply describing the situation as it will be in Scotland or as it exists at the moment, not just for Scotland but for the UK? Is he also describing the situation for a cross-border service, which is what the east coast main line is?
Lord Dunlop
Just to clarify, the clause that we are talking about relates to Scotland-only franchises. As I said earlier, not-for-profit entities are not precluded from being rail franchisees under the Railways Act 1993.
To return to what I was saying, both franchises have been in operation since April.
Baroness Quin
“Political and economic impact of this Act on the United Kingdom
The Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers shall, in exercising any power or order provided for under this Act, consider—(a) the impact of exercising the power or order on the political and economic strength of the United Kingdom as a whole, and(b) the importance of strengthening the United Kingdom as a whole, both politically and economically.”
Baroness Quin
Amendments 73B and 73C are in my name. I am glad there is cross-party support for Amendment 73C from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, and the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle, whom I am pleased to see in his place. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has also co-signed Amendment 73B.
Both amendments have been tabled to highlight the issues in the Bill which have implications, and possible implications, for the rest of the United Kingdom. In particular, Amendment 73B refers to the areas bordering Scotland—the north-east of England and Cumbria. Amendment 73C asks for a report from Ministers within a year of the passing of the Act, and an impact assessment of its measures on the areas adjoining Scotland. In particular, it seeks an impact assessment of Parts 2 to 5.
Amendment 73B stresses the importance in implementing the Bill of having regard to the need to help promote the political and economic well-being of the UK as a whole. Many of us are very happy that the referendum result was a strong no, but people in Scotland voted to maintain the United Kingdom in its present geographical form because they wanted to see a successful UK in the future. A commitment to ensure the success of the UK as a whole is therefore important, as well as delivering on the Smith commission and the specific devolution proposals which the Bill contains.
When I tabled these amendments, I had not realised that so many of today’s debates would in effect be about them. Many of the debates have been about not only respecting devolution but looking at ways of strengthening the UK as a whole. We had an interesting debate about the future of the British Transport Police. Whatever comes out at the end of this process, I think we would all agree that we need a system which ensures that there is effective policing of our transport network, including on cross-border trains. I say that with some feeling, given that every train I travel on to get from my home in Northumberland to this House is a cross-border train. I certainly want to see the highest safety standards on those trains. Similarly, I would like us to commit ourselves to ensuring that the UK as a whole is successful and, as far as we can, to ensuring its overall political and economic harmony.
When I spoke at Second Reading I said that I supported the Bill, and I do. These amendments, which are probing, do not seek to damage the Bill but arise from the concern we have expressed about the need to promote economic and social solidarity across the UK. A lot of today’s discussion has been about the Smith commission and the extent to which it is set in stone. These amendments do not contradict the commission in any way, but they add to the requirements on Ministers regarding the UK as a whole. They would require that the need to improve the union of the UK is adhered to.
We are all influenced by our backgrounds and our ties with particular parts of the UK and, not surprisingly, as a north-easterner I am keen to see that the north-east prospers in the future. It has had a lot of economic upheaval in the past and has been very innovative in recent years, but it certainly needs to improve economically. I would not want any Bill before Parliament to result in worsening the position of one of the UK’s poorer regions, so I do not apologise at all for tabling an amendment which is very much related to the north-east and Cumbria.
There were concerns in the north-east at the prospect of a yes vote in the referendum—concerns about what having an international border on our doorstep would mean for us, given the uncertainties about currency and immigration controls, for example. The two countries might have very different immigration policies. There were also concerns about people crossing the border each day for work—in both directions—and people wanting to access health services on either side of the border. Given the outcome of the referendum, we should certainly make a strong commitment to ensuring that people on both sides of the border have access to the facilities and services they need, and that those facilities and services are of a high standard.
Later in our proceedings we will be looking at air passenger duty, but here I will raise one transport issue that is of concern to people on both sides of the border and seems to me a prime candidate for a cross-border project which would help people on both sides of the border: the improvement of the A1 between Newcastle and Edinburgh. When driving last week up to Haddington in East Lothian, I was again very much aware that north of Morpeth almost until you get to Edinburgh, the road is a mixture of dual and single carriageway. That possibly explains why so many of the accidents on that road have been head-on collisions—because people get confused about whether they are on a dual section of the A1 or a single section. The road is, ironically, entitled the Great North Road, but it is anything but that in its present state. What we do not want to see as a result of devolution is less prosperous areas of the UK losing out further, and we need to make a conscious commitment to avoid that happening. That will involve lots of practical measures.
The amendments might seem rather sweeping, but many different issues could be encompassed within them. Earlier, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, talked about the tribunal system and the usefulness of being able to transfer tribunals from one part of the UK to another in order to avoid backlogs. That seemed to me a small but rather important example of how we should ensure that the UK works better as result of what we are doing.
I would like the Government, in responding, to say two things. First, how do they intend to ensure that the UK will work more successfully in future? In particular, what cross-border projects are they in favour of to ensure that there is some enthusiasm across the border about improving roads, infrastructure and other facilities on which people on both sides of the border rely? I certainly hope that the Government will look sympathetically at the spirit of these amendments, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I rise to speak in support of Amendments 73B and 73C, to which my name is attached. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, that the Bill concerns the whole of the United Kingdom and not just Scotland. It has to be considered not just from the perspective of the two Governments—the Scottish Government and the UK Government—but from the perspective of the people living in those parts of the United Kingdom that share a border with Scotland.
Although I support strongly the principles behind the Bill and welcome the proposals to devolve powers, responsibilities and further tax-raising capabilities to Scotland, I am very aware that the level of public spending on Scotland is significantly higher per capita in Scotland than it is in the north of England. To give the figures from the latest year for which they are available, in 2014-15 in the north-east of England the total identifiable expenditure on services per head was £9,347, in the north-west of England it was £9,197, in Yorkshire and the Humber it was £8,660, but in Scotland it was £10,374. These are very different levels of per capita spending, and they need to be explained so that the general public understands the basis for them. I look forward to seeing and considering the fiscal framework when it is published shortly, which I hope will explain these differences. We will then see what impact any changes will have on the operation of the Barnett formula and how far the Scottish Government will need to use their powers over income tax to pay for better public services, where they decide to have them, than are available in the rest of the UK.
The two amendments, Amendments 73B and 73C, reflect this problem. The UK and Scottish Governments should not proceed by disregarding the impact of the fiscal settlement on the rest of the United Kingdom. I hope that both Governments will understand the need for the whole of the UK to be strengthened, not just one part at the expense of another. In that respect, it is very important, as the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, explained, for there to be a report by both Governments on the actual impact on the areas south of the border. I hope that the Minister will recommend that it should become an annual statement, as it would aid public understanding of the devolution agreement.
Lord Dunlop
First, I echo what the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said about the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, who I know to be a doughty champion for the north-east. I support the sentiment behind the amendment; Governments should always consider the impact on the union and, in particular, the economy, when they make decisions. Likewise, before and after making policy, Governments should as a matter of course assess whether any particular region is impacted disproportionately. That is not just my view; it is this Government’s stated policy and our approach in practice. Not only that, but there are opportunities for Parliament to scrutinise the Government as they do this and hold us to account. I welcome and encourage that scrutiny.
The UK Government have considered carefully the impact of devolution on the union as a whole throughout the development process for this Bill. The commission set up by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, had that at its heart. One of the principles under which the commission operated was to,
“not cause detriment to the UK as a whole nor to any of its constituent parts”.
As the Committee will be aware, the UK Government and the Smith commission rejected candidates for devolution—for example, the devolution of national insurance. I believe it is right that they did, precisely because devolution of such areas could undermine the union. However, the UK Government also believe that devolution to the Scottish Parliament will make it more accountable to the people who elect it. Our objective has always been to encourage that accountability without undermining the union. Let me reassure the Committee that this Government do not require a legal requirement in the Scotland Bill to ensure that we take these considerations into account.
I hope I can give similar reassurance on how the UK Government consider the impact of policy-making on specific regions and locations. This Government are committed to rebalancing growth across the country, from creating a northern powerhouse to strengthening our great city regions. A number of noble Lords mentioned this. To give a specific example, the UK Government are well aware of the potential impact of the devolution of air passenger duty. That is why we have issued a discussion paper and consultation to engage stakeholders and find a workable solution. There are procedures in place. These policies are scrutinised in Parliament and open to challenge, especially in the other place where MPs can represent their constituency interests in Parliament.
The noble Baroness suggested joint working on projects on both sides of the border. I entirely agree with that sentiment. The borderlands initiative is a good example of that sort of work. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised reporting. I am very happy to look at it as a subject and at how it could be further improved. I am always happy to meet, and I would be very happy to meet him.
While I fully support the sentiment behind these amendments, I do not believe requirements in legislation are necessary. The UK Government are committed to this approach. The fiscal framework and how we put into practice the no-detriment principle were raised by a number of noble Lords. I am certain that we will return to them on our next day in Committee. I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Quin
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and to noble Lords who spoke in favour of the amendments and their spirit. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord McAvoy for his sympathetic reply to the concerns that have been raised. I hope that the Government’s commitment to the union and to cross-border projects and ventures will be translated into reality in many practical ways. We look forward to seeing the results of that in coming months and years.
The noble Lord, Lord Curry, mentioned concern that we sometimes have in the north-east that the northern powerhouse seems to be concentrating on areas to the south of us, particularly on Manchester and Leeds. I wish them every success, but we wish to be fully part of the initiative. I am glad that the noble Lord made that point. I am glad that these issues have been aired. I hope that the Government will take them to heart. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Scotland Bill
Baroness Quin Excerpts(9 years ago)
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Baroness Quin (Lab)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, who is very often a travelling companion on the east coast line between London, Northumberland and the Scottish borders. It is also a pleasure to pay tribute to and welcome the two maiden speakers in this debate: the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, alias Ming, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.
The Bill gives legislative effect to the vow and to the outcome of the Smith commission. Once the vow was made, it needed to be delivered. In that sense, I support the Bill and the speech made by my noble friend Lord McAvoy from our Front Bench. Living in England’s most northerly constituency, Berwick-upon-Tweed, I am affected and concerned by the debate on Scotland and its future role within the UK. The referendum vote was the most important one in my political life, although I did not actually have a vote to exercise. The Bill gives effect to the vow and I respect that but, from my own experience of canvassing for Better Together in the borders, particularly in the last 10 days of the referendum campaign, I agree with my noble friend Lord Maxton that the vow was not the reason why Scots voted no. It was certainly not mentioned to me on the doorstep. More effective was the splendid speech by Gordon Brown, reclaiming the saltire for the whole of Scotland, not just the yes campaign.
I was also struck by a comment made in an earlier debate by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who correctly pointed out that most of the postal votes had been cast well before the vow. As I understand it, those postal votes very much favoured the no side and were therefore not influenced by the vow at the last minute. I also clearly remember Nicola Sturgeon, now First Minister, saying on 16 September that the Scottish people were not daft and would not be taken in by the vow—and, only five days later, Alex Salmond saying that people in Scotland were tricked into voting no because of the vow. This seems highly inconsistent on the part of the SNP. On this occasion, I agree with Nicola Sturgeon that the electorate were not daft and knew what they were voting against, just as much as what they were voting for.
In many ways, I would prefer all the matters in the Bill to have been part of the constitutional convention approach, which a lot of noble Lords have put forward in the course of this debate and over the last few months. There are all kinds of implications as a result, not least for areas neighbouring Scotland, as the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, pointed out. That obviously resonated with me in particular. I also pay tribute to the tremendous speech by my noble friend Lord Hollick in presenting the findings of the Economic Affairs Committee. I hope that the Government will very much take into account the views he expressed.
Some noble Lords in this debate, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, have spoken about federalism and how keen they are to see a federal solution. I know that my noble friend Lord Foulkes also takes a keen interest in this. To a certain extent, it depends what you mean by federalism. I say this particularly coming from the north-east of England because, in many ways, our natural allies over many elections were in Scotland and Wales. There is a great worry that if there is simply an England-wide solution or an English Parliament, we could be more marginalised than we are in the United Kingdom Parliament. Although the Government seem now to be embarking on a programme of devolution it seems very piecemeal and aspects of it very much worry me, such as inflicting elected mayors on areas that have already voted against them. That seems against the very principle of localism and regionalism. I hope that regional devolution is not dead. It is true that the past vote in the north-east went strongly against it, in rather different circumstances, but that was by a rather similar majority to the rejection of the Welsh Assembly the first time around in Wales. So I do not lose hope of having a devolved situation in the largest by far, in population, of the four countries of our union.
Nicola Sturgeon recently spoke on “Desert Island Discs” about how she had come into politics and wanted to become involved in the SNP as a result of the effect of Mrs Thatcher’s policies on Scotland. Again, coming from the north-east of England where we, like Scotland, had three industries—shipbuilding, coal and steel—that went into a massive decline at once, I was very sad that she concluded that separation was the better road rather than economic and social solidarity across the whole United Kingdom, which is the approach that I would much prefer to see.
I accept the Bill but, at the same time, I urge the Government to accept the idea of the constitutional convention and to look urgently at ways of strengthening the union, particularly across the border in areas such as mine adjoining Scotland, so as to make a success of it—and not to allow it to drift apart and, possibly, break up.