Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I should say at the outset that I do not intend to move new clause 1, although I want to take the opportunity to raise matters that concern it and to support Government amendments 28 and 29. Similarly, I do not intend to press amendment 1 to a vote.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. May I advise the hon. Gentleman that he needs to move his new clause so that we can debate the amendments? When he replies to the debate, he can ask the leave of the House to withdraw it.

[Mr Jenkin]

I am rather appalled, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I have had to be pulled up on that procedural matter in my 21st year in this House.

New Clause 1

Bill of rights

‘Nothing in this Act shall be construed by any court in the United Kingdom as affecting Article IX of the Bill of Rights 1689.’. —(Mr Jenkin.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Mr Jenkin]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government amendment 28.

Amendment 1, in schedule 1, page 51, line 6, leave out paragraphs 1 and 2.

Government amendment 29.

Amendment 78, page 51, line 15, leave out sub-paragraph (2).

[Mr Jenkin]

I want to use this opportunity to draw the attention of the House to the report by the House of Lords and House of Commons Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege, which was produced only a month or two ago. I believe that it sets down the terms on which we should consider parliamentary privilege, its importance and its relevance. In particular, chapter 2, on general principles, draws attention to privilege’s continuing relevance and value and notes that parliamentary

“proceedings must be immune from interference by the executive, the courts or anyone else who may wish to impede or influence those proceedings in pursuit of their own ends.”

The principle of parliamentary privilege rests on the concept of exclusive cognisance. That is referred to at the beginning of schedule 1, which quotes an extract from the 1689 Bill of Rights and refers to any matter that

“otherwise affects the scope of the exclusive cognisance of Parliament.”

The term “cognisance” might seem rather archaic, but it encapsulates what privilege is about. That is, as our report states:

“Parliament enjoys sole jurisdiction—normally described by the archaic term ‘exclusive cognisance’—over all matters subject to parliamentary privilege.”

That concept underpins parliamentary privilege. As we explain:

“Thus Article 9 of the Bill of Rights, the most important statutory expression of parliamentary privilege, states that ‘the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament’.”

We go on to explain that the most important part of that is that

“both Members and non-Members… are not legally liable for things said or done in the course”

of our parliamentary proceedings,

“nor are those outside who are adversely affected by things said or done in Parliament able to seek redress through the courts.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lansley]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I call Graham Allen; Ministers must wait.

[Mr Allen]

I am happy to give way to the right hon. Gentleman, even before I have said anything, if he wants to say something.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

You have the floor, Mr Allen. Please continue.

[Mr Allen]

I am just trying to be helpful.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) has given us a tour de force on this group of amendments, leaving me mainly to sweep up on amendment 100, which I am happy to do.

Amendment 100 emerged from the considerations of the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform when the Bill was put before us and we had a chance to take evidence from witnesses. I hope that the amendment is helpful in raising a number of issues that I would like the Government to consider.

We heard a few moments ago from my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), the Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee, and I endorse his views in that the Government have listened on the particular item he mentioned, as a result of which we have a better Bill, although it is still far from perfect. That just shows that where there is interaction—this does not mean that the Government have to swallow every probing amendment that finds itself on to the amendment paper—there is a possibility of a little bit of give and take. From my perspective as a parliamentarian, I understand that some of the ethics coming from the Front Bench have to be a little sharper and a bit more oppositional, but I sometimes have the luxury of posing a view on behalf of Parliament that might find favour, albeit not necessarily in its existing form. Let that debate continue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Allen]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The amendment to which the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is speaking relates to the issue of registered persons, which, as he said at the outset, is specific and narrow. The debate is not about the time that has been allocated to discussion of the Bill. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis) has assisted the hon. Member for Nottingham North, and I hope that he will now speak directly to his amendment.

[Mr Allen]

I am very sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. Two experienced Members led me astray, and diverted me from the points that I was seeking to make about delays and human rights. I am sure that they took your strictures very personally.

[Mr Allen]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The Members who are present this evening are indeed experienced, and the hon. Member for Nottingham North is very experienced. He knows that the purpose of the debate is to focus on the matters contained in the amendments. Perhaps Members who wish to comment on matters relating to Third Reading, or to other amendments, could save their remarks for those occasions. I am sure that, given the huge amount of work that has been done by the hon. Gentleman’s Committee, he will now want to return to the subject of amendment 100.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Thomas]

We have had a very good debate on these amendments but, sadly, what has become clear is that whenever meaningful transparency has been suggested, the Leader of the House has cited the danger of a huge level of bureaucracy as the reason real transparency cannot be achieved. This Bill is badly titled; instead of the Transparency of Lobbying Bill, it would be better and more accurate to describe it as a little bit of transparency on a little bit of lobbying Bill.

The Leader of the House did not revert to the attempt made by the former Minister, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith), who suggested that there were plenty of examples of countries around the world that had statutory codes of conduct that suggested that such codes were unworkable. The one effort that the right hon. Gentleman made was to cite the American political system as being a reason that a statutory code of conduct would not work here. Not even the scale of incompetence that the coalition parties are managing to achieve in government comes close to the scale of dysfunctionality in the American political system at the moment. It is not a meaningful comparison to cite the American code of conduct; more sensible would have been to point to the examples of Australia and Canada, as I sought to do. Experience there does show that a statutory code of conduct can be made workable and enforceable, and could help to achieve the objective of delivering real transparency when lobbyists meet Ministers and indeed members of the House of Commons. A clear, basic code of conduct would avoid confusion over which voluntary register was the best one. It would offer clarity to the House and, indeed, to those in Government about the standards expected and required by those lobbying. I urge the Government to accept, even at this late stage, the benefit of having a code of conduct, even for the tiny number of lobbyists their Bill will cover.

My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), in a very well-judged speech, highlighted the number of loopholes that exist in the Bill. He cited the balance of evidence presented to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, suggesting that further information should be included in the register, including the scale of financial information, the subject matter of the lobbying, and the purpose of the lobbying activity. He noted that representations for that additional information had come to the Committee from a range of organisations as diverse as Spinwatch all the way through to the Royal College of Nursing.

Our amendments sought to inject that greater level of information and transparency into the process. I deeply regret that even at this late stage Ministers are not willing to consider even their own versions of the amendments. I therefore seek the opportunity to press the new clause to a vote and urge all Members of the House to support it.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

The House proceeded to a Division.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 68, in clause 2, page 2, line 1, leave out ‘a business’ and insert ‘their lobbying activity’.

Amendment 69, page 2, line 3, after ‘persons’, insert ‘or employer’.

Amendment 70, page 2, line 4, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—

‘(ba) the person concerned is trading as a sole trader or company, or is an employee of such a person’.

Amendment 97, page 2, line 8, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The communications within this subsection are oral or written communications made personally to a Member of either House of Parliament, a Minister of the Crown or permanent secretary or senior civil servant or special adviser relating to—

(a) the development, adoption or modification of any proposal of the Government to make or amend primary or subordinate legislation;

(b) the development, adoption or modification of any other policy of the Government;

(c) the making, giving or issuing by the Government of, or the taking of any other steps by the Government in relation to—

(i) any contract or other agreement,

(ii) any grant or other financial assistance, or

(iii) any licence or other authorisation; or

(d) the exercise of any other function of the Government.’.

Amendment 98, page 2, line 8, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The communications within this subsection are oral or written communications made personally to a Minister of the Crown or permanent secretary or senior civil servant or special adviser relating to—

(e) the development, adoption or modification of any proposal of the Government to make or amend primary or subordinate legislation;

(f) the development, adoption or modification of any other policy of the Government;

(g) the making, giving or issuing by the Government of, or the taking of any other steps by the Government in relation to—

(iv) any contract or other agreement,

(ii) any grant or other financial assistance, or

(iii) any licence or other authorisation; or

(h) the exercise of any other function of the Government.’.

Amendment 71, page 2, line 8, after ‘written’, insert ‘, including electronic,’.

Amendment 73, page 2, line 9, leave out from ‘communications’ to ‘relating’ in line 10 and insert ‘are made to government or parliament’.

Amendment 116, page 2, line 10, after ‘secretary’, insert ‘or special adviser’.

Amendment 72, page 2, line 12, after ‘subordinate’, insert ‘or European’.

Amendment 74, page 2, line 20, at end insert ‘or parliament’.

Amendment 75, page 2, line 21, leave out ‘Minister or permanent secretary’ and insert ‘person being lobbied’.

Amendment 76, page 2, line 25, leave out from beginning of line 25 to end of subsection (5) and insert— ‘

“government and parliament” includes within the United Kingdom—

(a) Ministers or officials of government departments;

(b) Members and staff of either House of Parliament;

(c) Special Advisers and senior civil servants;

(d) Non-Ministerial Departments, Non-departmental public bodies and executive agencies and their senior staff; and

(e) Advisers and consultants to government and parliament within the meaning of this subsection, who are not employed by, or seconded to government or parliament but have an official, if temporary, role.’.

Amendment 99, page 2, line 33, at end add—

‘“senior civil servant” means a person holding a position of Grade 5 or above in the Civil Service of the State.

“special advisor” had the same meaning as in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010.

Government amendment 30

Amendment 80, in schedule 1, page 52, line 7, leave out paragraph 4.

Amendment 83, page 53, line 26, leave out paragraph 12.