Care Bill [HL]

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I strongly support my noble friend’s amendments, which would ensure that local authorities and, in particular, patients and carers can be represented on the LETBs. I have three amendments in the group. Amendment 38 adds to the list of bodies from whom LETBs need to seek advice—namely, the local university medical and nursing schools. I know it is hardly likely that their advice will not be sought since they are so intimately involved in delivering educational programmes, but in case that message is not clear, we need to have it clarified somewhere in the Bill. I recognise that there has not always been unlimited delight felt by the trusts about the way the universities, particularly the nursing schools, have provided education suiting their products to the trusts’ needs. Nevertheless, it would be clearly wrong to ignore them.

Amendment 41 draws attention to the need to include postgraduate deans in the local education and training boards’ activities. It surprises me, to say the least, that the deans are not mentioned at all in the Bill, despite the fact that they are absolutely crucial to the oversight of education and training. I am sure they will be involved but we must have the comfort of knowing that their crucial role is acknowledged by seeing them clearly mentioned in the Bill.

Amendment 50 makes it a requirement for LETBs to include in their list of bodies from whom they need to take advice, the local universities in their patch. It is not enough to include these bodies in the catch-all phrase of subsection (4)(e),

“such other persons as the LETB considers appropriate”.

The medical schools need to be named in that list.

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

I speak in support of Amendment 51 on the patient and carer voice. I know that there is sometimes resistance to patient and carer representatives on bodies such as this. One often hears professionals say, “They only speak from their own experience”. Yes, they do speak from their own experience—and that is actually the powerful and most informative bit. That is not to say that patients and carers can only speak from their own personal experience; they speak from the wider experience too of other patients and carers with whom they are in contact. That is the most important voice and we should give it a hearing, because very often it is a way of approaching a situation entirely differently from the way in which the professionals would come at it. I am sure that there is a great deal that most professionals, either trained or in the process of being trained, could learn from that.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I wish to say a word about these issues. There is a danger, when we are setting up on the face of the Bill, the component parts of something like the LETB boards. As I understand it, the principle was that the majority of members of the board are local providers. That seems sensible because clearly they are the people who are going to have the knowledge and will inform the LETBs. Simply adding new members, each with a representative function, does not really aid the ability of a board to make decisions. It can become less effective and efficient, purely due to the numbers of people around the table.

There are many groups of workers and, indeed, patients who have got a case, but there are other ways of involving them. I very much accept what the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said about having due regard to universities and deans of medical schools. I am happy about the idea that one should have regard to advice that has been given, but I am not sure about having specific representatives that HEE decides are good for a local area on the board. Some areas want to do it differently. To me, that is fine. The size of the LETBs varies enormously; they can be the size of the whole of the north-west and the whole of the south-west, yet Wessex and Thames Valley are separate. These are to be local education and training boards; they need the freedom and flexibility to reflect the local area. Although I understand that people are anxious to ensure that the LETBs are efficient and represent local areas, views and constituent parts, it should be left to their flexibility and judgment.