Police, Fire and Crime Commissioner for North Yorkshire (Fire and Rescue Authority) Order 2018

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Pinnock]

That this House regrets that the Police, Fire and Crime Commissioner for North Yorkshire (Fire and Rescue Authority) Order 2018 has been brought forward despite the constituent councils, the North Yorkshire Police and Crime Panel, and North Yorkshire Fire Authority being opposed to the proposals; further regrets that no detailed assessments have been undertaken by the Police and Crime Commissioner’s Office as to the impact of the proposals; and expresses serious concern that the proposals could severely impact on the fire services’ capacity to serve residents across York and North Yorkshire (SI 2018/970).

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, the policy objective in the Policing and Crime Act 2017 was to enable police and crime commissioners to take over the control and oversight of fire authorities. The aim was to achieve greater collaboration and collocation of these two services which respond to emergencies. That objective is not challenged in this Motion; the means to achieve that outcome are, we contend, in the case of North Yorkshire, fundamentally flawed.

The North Yorkshire police and crime commissioner, Julia Mulligan, published a report in October 2016 in support of a single leadership model by the PCC for both police and fire services. A business case was developed to support the proposition, and this was assessed on behalf of the Home Office by CIPFA. The CIPFA report is revealing. It looked at the consultation undertaken by the PCC. Three models were proposed. These were labelled: “representation”, “governance”, and “single employer”.

From the outset, the consultation was skewed to get support for a PCC takeover. The public—who will be barely aware that a PCC exists and probably also not aware that the commissioner is a single elected politician —opted for the so-called governance model. Why was it not described as it is—that is, as a commissioner model? Was it deliberately or inadvertently designed to mislead? The CIPFA conclusion on this consultation was that the choice between a councillor-led representation model and a single elected politician governance model was a political issue outside of its remit.

The CIPFA report then proceeded to assess the PCC’s business case on the basis of economy, efficiency and effectiveness. Currently the joint expenditure for the police and fire services in North Yorkshire is £169 million. On the measure of economy, which is minimising the cost of resources used, the CIPFA conclusion was that,

“there is an absence of quantified benefits”,

in relation to any reduced costs of these inputs.

On efficiency savings, the business case assessed that £660,000 at net present value can be saved per annum. This is achieved largely by joint appointments of senior staff and, crucially, includes one-off benefits of capital receipts from the sale of sites and buildings, which could well be achieved under the existing models. Of course, many smaller local authorities have used this route for so-called back-office savings for several years, and this has been done without compromising the status of the individual authorities. Indeed, the police and fire services in North Yorkshire have already been developing collaboration via a collaboration committee, which is already proving to be an effective way to secure improvements, with agreement by both services and without the disruption of a significant change in governance model. The overall CIPFA conclusion paints a more balanced picture, that efficiency savings lead to a net cost reduction per annum of a mere £36,000. Is it for this that the Home Office is allowing such upheaval?

On the effectiveness measure, the CIPFA assessment stated that:

“Proving a direct link between the governance model and effectiveness is a subjective process”,


but that, “On balance”, it,

“has the potential to have a positive impact”.

I contend that that is hardly a resounding endorsement. CIPFA concludes that,

“the Governance Model will be in the interests of efficiency. However, the savings directly attributable to the change are modest”.

That is the understatement of the year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not know whether personal qualities or characteristics are taken into account and I do not feel that I am in a position to opine on this, given that I do not know the detailed circumstances of the complaint. However, the PCC is receiving support from the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners, which is providing a mentoring function. I probably cannot go further than that.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also implied that PCCs seeking to take on governance of their local fire and rescue service should be prevented from doing so where that would have a negative impact on public safety. Public safety is of course the absolute core element of the role of the fire and rescue service, so we would not expect the Home Secretary to approve a transfer where that was compromised.

If I have not answered all the questions that were put to me, I will write to noble Lords in due course. Having heard the Government’s case, I hope that the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw her Motion to Regret.

[Baroness Pinnock]

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, which has got more interest than I anticipated, and I thank the Minister for her very considered and careful response, as always. I want to highlight three points that the Minister has made.

The first is about collaboration. I said right from the outset that that is not in question here. As far as I am concerned, the point is well made. There ought to be collaboration between the emergency services, and efforts are being made in North Yorkshire without this change having been imposed on the authority. My second point is about the CIPFA independent assessment, which was underwhelming in its endorsement of the business case put by the North Yorkshire PCC. It could not have been more tepid if it tried. For that reason, we ought not to take into account that the CIPFA report was in favour of this. It found no supporting evidence for the case that was made. The third point I want to make is about the one that the Minister and others have made in the reports that I have read: “It is great to have visibility; we know who the PCC is”. We know who dictators are, actually, and we know that they are transparent in their decision-making, but they are not accountable and neither is a PCC.

For these reasons, the whole situation in North Yorkshire is becoming very difficult indeed, especially when we think that these are emergency services on which people’s lives depend. This is not a game being played, although it has seemed to be by the PCC. This is important stuff. To just say that it will lead to visible decision-making—no, it will not. Decision-making has to be thoughtful, considered and right.

The last comment I want to make is about accountability. The panels that are set have no powers at all to really call anyone to account. It is a single person who makes these vital decisions on emergency services, and the panels can do little or nothing. As we have heard, they have had to write to the Home Office to see if they can sort something out about the collapse in relationships in North Yorkshire.

I respect the Minister and the work she does, but I am afraid that in this instance I am not happy with her responses for the reasons I have given. Given that, I wish to test the opinion of the House.