Sale of Knives

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

This is a subject that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and others discussed with me during the passage of the Bill. We decided not to do so—that corrosive products are clearly labelled. It is true that in both the online and retail worlds, age has to be verified at both ends, and how the online or street retailer does that is up to them. It is, however, an offence to deliver to a delivery box or a residential address without that verification.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my local authority interests as recorded in the register. This year’s APPG report on knife crime demonstrated a link between the serious cuts in services to young people—for example, local authority youth services received a 70% cut in funding—and knife crime. Effective measures to reduce knife crime must include significant rises in funding for youth services. Does the Minister agree?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What I do agree with is that the issues of knife crime are complex, many and varied.

Knife Crime

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

As my noble friend Lord Paddick said in opening this debate, there are many facets to the horrors and challenges of knife crime. One of these is that there is an established link between the very large cuts to local government funding and the increase in knife crime. At this point I remind the House of my relevant interests as a local councillor and vice-president of the Local Government Association.

In February this year a group of major children’s charities—Action for Children, Barnardo’s, the NSPCC, the Children’s Society and the National Children’s Bureau—produced a joint report containing a new analysis of the research they had done on local funding per child. They found that the funding available to local councils per child has dropped by as much as 52% in real terms. Furthermore, the report stated the view of youth and social workers that the dramatic cuts were inextricably linked to a rise in youth knife crime and the criminal exploitation of children by county lines gangs.

The Local Government Association figures paint a similar picture. The LGA statistics show that more than 600 youth centres closed and nearly 139,000 youth service places were lost between 2012 and 2016 alone. Councils were forced to cut spending on local youth services by 52%, from £652 million in 2010-11 to £352 million in 2017-18 as a direct result of government cuts to local government funding.

The sad fact is that the statistics also demonstrate that early intervention by youth services and youth offending teams—I am surprised that no one has mentioned them so far today in the debate—can and does significantly reduce the number of young people who become involved in criminal activity and knife crime in particular. Youth services design targeted approaches so that those young people who are more likely to be enticed into, for instance, knife crime are diverted from it. Youth offending teams both divert young people from criminal activity that may lead to knife crime and provide support that steers young people away from further involvement in illegal and possibly violent activity.

The Action for Children report quoted a youth worker whose role currently is to support victims of stabbing in an A&E in London. He said:

“Young people and their families are not getting the support they need and things are reaching crisis point. Dealing with the issues at A&E is too late”.


There are consequences to severe cuts in local services and local communities and families are damaged, sometimes beyond repair. Preventative services, such as youth services, are a vital element in keeping individuals and communities safe.

One of the key recommendations of the report by the APPG on Knife Crime is that, as part of the public health approach, the Government should use this autumn’s expected spending review to provide a considerable increase in funding to youth services so that they can provide safe spaces and access to the support that some young people need. What is so frustrating is that this pattern of large cuts in youth services leading to a rise in young people involved in crime is entirely predictable: it has happened before; the link is known. That makes the continued cuts to local youth services as a consequence of government funding decisions even more to be reprimanded.

The Government have at least responded, in a piecemeal way, to the knife crime crisis by providing additional funding to police services. In West Yorkshire, ad hoc funding has enabled early intervention and prevention work with young people, schools and communities to tackle knife crime. Disappointingly, the funding is a one-off and therefore there is no sustainability either in the funding or the prevention work. It is as if the Government see a horrific problem and throw some one-off funding at it in order to reduce critical media headlines. What they should and must do is provide continuing year-on-year funding to local government to provide the intervention and prevention work that will turn lives around, keep young people safe, remove the trauma of violent knife crime from a community and enable young people to turn away from knives. The win for the Government is that this approach costs the public purse less in the long run. It is a win-win. The only thing that is surprising is that it is taking the Government so long to accept that this change is absolutely essential.

Police Funding Settlement

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for those questions. Her first point was about better use of digital techniques. In all the efficiency discussions that we have had with the police, that is one of the most important things. The advent of new technology means that the police can spend more time out on the streets fighting crime. As more efficient police services engage with this type of technology, we will see that realised in more police time.

My noble friend makes a good point about a cross-party approach to the Offensive Weapons Bill, which I look forward to discussing across the House. I know that we will have a constructive discussion about that before we debate the Bill and I look forward to hearing from her at Second Reading and beyond, and to her engagement in the process.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for what she said about the rise in the policing precept. She seems to admit that, on the one hand, the Government are giving by reducing income tax levels for people, on the other, passing on the cost of policing to local residents. One is based on ability to pay, but council tax, with the policing precept, is a very regressive tax, so there is an inherent unfairness in that system. I raise the particular consequences for West Yorkshire residents and those in my own borough of Kirklees, and I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests. In Kirklees last year there was a 7.9% rise in the policing precept, and the rise this year is predicted to be 14.7%. That is a 24% rise over two years, not based on anybody’s ability to pay. Will the Minister reflect on whether that is a fair way to raise taxation to pay for policing?

Secondly, police and crime commissioners are supposedly accountable to local people, yet there is no direct way of creating that accountability. I have a suggestion. Currently, the policing precept is an add-on at the bottom of the council tax bill issued by local authorities. Local people obviously just look at the bottom line of what they have to pay. To increase accountability, can the policing precept be billed separately, albeit within the same envelope or digitised method, so that it is clear to residents how much they are paying for policing and how much the Government require them to pay in addition?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. She mentioned giving with one hand and taking with the other. I talked about general taxation and people being taken out of tax— 32 million people are paying less tax—but there is also the government grant to PCCs, which will be £161 million. I reject her idea that costs are passed on to local people. We all pay tax. I for one am happy to pay local tax, knowing that it will go to my local police in Greater Manchester. She asked about the police precept being billed separately; I put it to her that she would then pass the cost of additional billing on to local people. Different areas can decide how to do things in their own way but an extra bill, even if put in the same envelope, will incur additional costs.

Police, Fire and Crime Commissioner for North Yorkshire (Fire and Rescue Authority) Order 2018

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Pinnock]

That this House regrets that the Police, Fire and Crime Commissioner for North Yorkshire (Fire and Rescue Authority) Order 2018 has been brought forward despite the constituent councils, the North Yorkshire Police and Crime Panel, and North Yorkshire Fire Authority being opposed to the proposals; further regrets that no detailed assessments have been undertaken by the Police and Crime Commissioner’s Office as to the impact of the proposals; and expresses serious concern that the proposals could severely impact on the fire services’ capacity to serve residents across York and North Yorkshire (SI 2018/970).

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, the policy objective in the Policing and Crime Act 2017 was to enable police and crime commissioners to take over the control and oversight of fire authorities. The aim was to achieve greater collaboration and collocation of these two services which respond to emergencies. That objective is not challenged in this Motion; the means to achieve that outcome are, we contend, in the case of North Yorkshire, fundamentally flawed.

The North Yorkshire police and crime commissioner, Julia Mulligan, published a report in October 2016 in support of a single leadership model by the PCC for both police and fire services. A business case was developed to support the proposition, and this was assessed on behalf of the Home Office by CIPFA. The CIPFA report is revealing. It looked at the consultation undertaken by the PCC. Three models were proposed. These were labelled: “representation”, “governance”, and “single employer”.

From the outset, the consultation was skewed to get support for a PCC takeover. The public—who will be barely aware that a PCC exists and probably also not aware that the commissioner is a single elected politician —opted for the so-called governance model. Why was it not described as it is—that is, as a commissioner model? Was it deliberately or inadvertently designed to mislead? The CIPFA conclusion on this consultation was that the choice between a councillor-led representation model and a single elected politician governance model was a political issue outside of its remit.

The CIPFA report then proceeded to assess the PCC’s business case on the basis of economy, efficiency and effectiveness. Currently the joint expenditure for the police and fire services in North Yorkshire is £169 million. On the measure of economy, which is minimising the cost of resources used, the CIPFA conclusion was that,

“there is an absence of quantified benefits”,

in relation to any reduced costs of these inputs.

On efficiency savings, the business case assessed that £660,000 at net present value can be saved per annum. This is achieved largely by joint appointments of senior staff and, crucially, includes one-off benefits of capital receipts from the sale of sites and buildings, which could well be achieved under the existing models. Of course, many smaller local authorities have used this route for so-called back-office savings for several years, and this has been done without compromising the status of the individual authorities. Indeed, the police and fire services in North Yorkshire have already been developing collaboration via a collaboration committee, which is already proving to be an effective way to secure improvements, with agreement by both services and without the disruption of a significant change in governance model. The overall CIPFA conclusion paints a more balanced picture, that efficiency savings lead to a net cost reduction per annum of a mere £36,000. Is it for this that the Home Office is allowing such upheaval?

On the effectiveness measure, the CIPFA assessment stated that:

“Proving a direct link between the governance model and effectiveness is a subjective process”,


but that, “On balance”, it,

“has the potential to have a positive impact”.

I contend that that is hardly a resounding endorsement. CIPFA concludes that,

“the Governance Model will be in the interests of efficiency. However, the savings directly attributable to the change are modest”.

That is the understatement of the year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not know whether personal qualities or characteristics are taken into account and I do not feel that I am in a position to opine on this, given that I do not know the detailed circumstances of the complaint. However, the PCC is receiving support from the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners, which is providing a mentoring function. I probably cannot go further than that.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also implied that PCCs seeking to take on governance of their local fire and rescue service should be prevented from doing so where that would have a negative impact on public safety. Public safety is of course the absolute core element of the role of the fire and rescue service, so we would not expect the Home Secretary to approve a transfer where that was compromised.

If I have not answered all the questions that were put to me, I will write to noble Lords in due course. Having heard the Government’s case, I hope that the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw her Motion to Regret.

[Baroness Pinnock]

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, which has got more interest than I anticipated, and I thank the Minister for her very considered and careful response, as always. I want to highlight three points that the Minister has made.

The first is about collaboration. I said right from the outset that that is not in question here. As far as I am concerned, the point is well made. There ought to be collaboration between the emergency services, and efforts are being made in North Yorkshire without this change having been imposed on the authority. My second point is about the CIPFA independent assessment, which was underwhelming in its endorsement of the business case put by the North Yorkshire PCC. It could not have been more tepid if it tried. For that reason, we ought not to take into account that the CIPFA report was in favour of this. It found no supporting evidence for the case that was made. The third point I want to make is about the one that the Minister and others have made in the reports that I have read: “It is great to have visibility; we know who the PCC is”. We know who dictators are, actually, and we know that they are transparent in their decision-making, but they are not accountable and neither is a PCC.

For these reasons, the whole situation in North Yorkshire is becoming very difficult indeed, especially when we think that these are emergency services on which people’s lives depend. This is not a game being played, although it has seemed to be by the PCC. This is important stuff. To just say that it will lead to visible decision-making—no, it will not. Decision-making has to be thoughtful, considered and right.

The last comment I want to make is about accountability. The panels that are set have no powers at all to really call anyone to account. It is a single person who makes these vital decisions on emergency services, and the panels can do little or nothing. As we have heard, they have had to write to the Home Office to see if they can sort something out about the collapse in relationships in North Yorkshire.

I respect the Minister and the work she does, but I am afraid that in this instance I am not happy with her responses for the reasons I have given. Given that, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Saddleworth and Tameside Moors

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I most certainly will, using exactly the same words as the noble Lord, although I shall not utter them. I understand that one arrest has been made, but he is right: it is an act of the most terrible folly to endanger both the countryside and, potentially, the lives of people and animals.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, this is a serious and significant fire for those of us who live in the north of England. Our thanks and recognition are due to all those who are fighting to contain the fire. Nine days on, the fire has been only contained, not put out. How much financial support is being given to the local authorities covering, I think, nine fire services which are now fighting the fire? What help is being given to combat the air pollution, which will have a serious effect on those who already have lung-related illnesses? Lastly, if the wind changes direction to its more normal westerly or south-westerly, which will drive the fire across into Yorkshire, what contingency plans are in place to stop it spreading even further?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In terms of financial support, there has not been a Bellwin request yet, but any help that is needed has been forthcoming. The noble Baroness will have heard in my Statement about the types of help that have been forthcoming. She asked whether the wind changes direction. A fire shield has already been put up that has stopped wind changes from spreading the fire even further but, of course, this is a process of ongoing monitoring and risk assessment, and the appropriate action will be taken as needs be.

Police Commissioners

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that my noble friend answered his own question. What I will say is that, under the Policing and Crime Act of last year, retiring or moving on to another force—I am not referring specifically to the chief constable—does not absolve a police officer from being answerable.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

Four years ago, the Government described council tax payers as “hard pressed”; today, the Government are anticipating, and enabling, the raising of the police precept by police commissioners by 6% or 7%. Does that mean that council tax payers are no longer hard pressed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, when local leaders such as PCCs or local authorities make funding and budget decisions, they should always maintain as low a cost base for the local taxpayer as possible.

Budget Statement

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Monday 4th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I want to focus my remarks on what was not in the Budget Statement. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth has already raised concerns about social care, and I make no apology for doing the same.

Before I start, I draw the House’s attention to my interests in the register: I am a councillor on Kirklees Council and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Therefore, I speak with some experience about the real and direct impact on people in the absence of government action on social care funding.

The Chancellor made no mention of the crisis in care for adults who depend on local authorities to fund all or part of their care. Those adults include older people—we often focus on that—and adults with complex physical and learning disabilities. The fact that there is a funding crisis is well-documented. A House of Commons Library briefing last month described adult social care as the largest discretionary budget of local authorities, and it is in crisis.

In my own council, the combined proportion of the net council budget for adults and children’s social services is 70%—70% of the council’s total net budget is spent on the care of others. That ratio has grown significantly, across my council and all councils, as cuts are made in other services, such as road repairs and keeping libraries open, to enable care to be provided.

However, the consequences of continued and substantial cuts in local authority spending by the reduction in central government grants, plus increasing numbers of older people in need of care and the rising costs in the care sector, have resulted in people not being able to get the care they need. One estimate is that there are 1 million people in this country who are not getting the care that ought to be provided. The reason for this, apart from the consequences of funding, is that councils are reducing eligibility criteria so that only those with the most urgent and complex needs qualify for care; everybody else is left to cater for themselves. The Local Government Association estimates that there will be a £2.3 billion funding gap by 2019-20. That is only for adult social care.

This is not just a local government perspective on what is going on. As has already been said by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, the Competition and Markets Authority reported last month that the care sector is not sustainable. The Institute for Fiscal Studies analysed care funding from 2009 to 2016, and it concluded that chronic underfunding and short-term fixes are making it simply impossible for local authorities to plan effectively. On local government funding, the IFS went on to comment that it is not appropriate to use an outdated formula that everyone agrees is no longer fit for purpose. Which?, the consumer campaigning organisation, also investigated the care home market and reported last month. It concluded that the crisis is real and that urgent action is needed now.

Last month, prior to the Budget, the King’s Fund said that unless the Chancellor finds additional funding in the Budget, people will be denied the care they need. In 2016, the King’s Fund produced a report on the care sector that stated:

“Access to care depends increasingly on what people can afford – and where they live – rather than on what they need”.


It went on to state:

“Local authorities have little room to make further savings, and most will soon be unable to meet basic statutory duties”.


So the crisis is real and getting worse. That cannot be disputed.

The Government can, of course, point to some sticking-plaster fixes. They have passed on the cost of social care to some extent to hard-pressed council tax payers by enabling councils to increase council tax by adding a 3% social care precept last year and this coming year. In the spring financial statement, the Government allocated additional funds over a three-year period—which, of course, is not sustainable—and then tied that funding to NHS bed-blocking criteria, rather than trying to deal with the fundamental answer to the crisis.

We have been promised a Green Paper—we have been promised one for a long time now—to lay out a long-term solution. We have had the Dilnot report, which you would have thought would be a sufficient solution. The Green Paper is now promised for next summer, but a Green Paper is a long way from a fundamental fix for the situation. Meanwhile, people struggle with daily and basic living needs.

So I ask the Minister: do the Government agree that there is a funding crisis in adult social care and that there is duty on them to provide leadership and solutions with additional long-term funding? If so, the failure to address the need is both inexplicable and damning. I have not even referred to children’s social care, which is by some estimates facing an even greater funding crisis. I look forward to a constructive and positive response from the Minister.