Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Baroness Noakes Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, I also congratulate the Minister and the parties involved on finding a pragmatic and workable solution to a problem identified in earlier discussion in this House. I also echo the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Higgins and Lord McFall. Proposed new Section 7E starts:

“The Bank and the Comptroller must prepare and maintain a memorandum of understanding”.

There is no mention of the word “publication”, yet in proposed new subsection (2)(d) “publication” is used. On the face of it, the absence of “publication” from the beginning of the section is intentional. As such, that surely should be unacceptable. I therefore urge the Minister at some later stage to persuade his colleagues in the other place that “publication” should be included, and to give this House some reassurance now that it is his intention that the memorandum of understanding should be published. Otherwise, the public will not have the confidence that they seek in clarifying this issue.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the National Audit Office are in agreement with this, but I would like to clarify the effect of proposed new Section 7E(2)(d). It allows for the publication of views where a matter in dispute cannot be resolved. That implies that there would be no agreement as to whether a particular audit could take place. That allows the Bank of England a backdoor power of veto if the arrangements are such that there is a possibility that even a dispute resolution procedure, as provided for under proposed new paragraph (c), results in there not being agreement. Therefore, is it possible that the Bank could de facto operate a veto?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Opposition are of course glad that peace has broken out. As a token of that peace, I say how much I agree with the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, which I hope the Minister will address. Both at Second Reading and in Committee, the House was greatly exercised by the potential disagreement and difficulties that attended on the formulation of the Bill at that time, with these two tremendously significant institutions at loggerheads. The situation was not helped by the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, felt unable to contribute to our debate at that stage. We were all very anxious indeed about the position.

I hope that the Minister will answer quite straightforwardly the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. I do not think that it is a question of whether there will be a publication, but of when. Whether it could be done in time for the process being considered while the Bill goes through the other place is a different matter. That certainly would be a great advantage and it ought to put pressure on the two bodies concerned to ensure that this memorandum of understanding is complete and published in short time.

On the more general issues, all parts of the House were greatly exercised by the position that developed as a result of the publication of the Bill. I am very glad to endorse the fact that peace has broken out, although on this occasion the Opposition did not have much to do with it.

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Baroness Noakes Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I completely support my noble friend Lord Sharkey in this. Although I greatly respect the noble Lord, Lord Flight, I hope that the House will resist his blandishments. I think non-executive directors of banks finding themselves on the Court of the Bank of England would be constantly facing conflicts of interest, and the public perception would be appalling—that the Bank had become the captive of the industry that it is there to regulate. That does not seem to be a sensible principle.

With the changes that are now proposed—for there to be five inside members, if you like, of the court and seven outside—the inside members would need to persuade only one outside member to join them to achieve stalemate. That is an unacceptable balance in any institution which is so important to the economic life of this country. If the argument cannot persuade more than one non-executive director, it cannot have the standing that would allow it to prevail.

Like my noble friend Lord Sharkey, I am still struggling to understand why this change is being made. The only reason that has been presented to me is the issue of transition. If there are only seven members of the board, for a period of time there could be an incoming and an outgoing member on the board at the same time. Perhaps that is a good practice; it sounds reasonably attractive. But for that to be the reason that the board should be reduced on a normalised basis to seven seems extraordinary. I also suggest that an outgoing member might be very hesitant to exercise their rights, knowing that they were about to depart the board. Transitional arrangements could be put into the Bill, and we would be quite supportive of the idea that there might be a period when an outgoing member of the court could remain on the board in certain roles, or perhaps even in a full role, for a brief transitional period to achieve the goals that the Minister is attempting to achieve.

I hope very much that we can resist this set of issues. The Bank of England is sufficiently important and outsiders are absolutely necessary. This House has made sure over the past several years that that is central to legislation and I think we will continue to hold to that importance.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that the Bank of England is an important institution but I am not sure that that importance needs to translate itself into how the court is constituted. The important activities of the Bank are carried out in what will be the three major committees: monetary policy, financial stability and prudential regulation. The activities carried out by the court are relatively few in number. The question then is: what size of court is going to be efficient for carrying out the functions it is there for?

The model that well serves both the plc community in this country and much of the public sector that is modelled on corporate lines is to have a majority of non-executives. That is being kept in here. I have never heard it suggested that the number of non-executives is somehow important to the quality of governance in plcs. Many have more than a bare majority of non-executive directors but a lot operate strictly within the rules to have just a bare majority. I have not seen any studies anywhere that the ratios have any correlation with the quality of governance that is capable of being exercised.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred to the academic evidence that smaller boards are effective boards—that is one of the things that came out of Sir David Walker’s review into the governance of banks—and that committees should be 4:5 and boards 8:10 or something like that. That is because in a smaller organisation, all members can have a proper voice and there can be a proper discussion, whereas in large boards often it is relatively simple for an inner group to dominate the larger group. That is what the behavioural studies have shown.

[Baroness Kramer]

I respect the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, very much but is she saying that the current Court of the Bank of England is ineffective because it is too large, and that the effect has been that many of the non-executive directors are not having their voice heard? That is a very serious comment to lay on the table. If that is the case, we really need that evidence because we will want to effect a cure, if this is an answer to a board that the Government have essentially decided is ineffective.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I have absolutely no knowledge of how the Court of the Bank of England works and have not had that knowledge since 2000, when my tenure on the court ceased. At that time I think that we were a court of 16, of whom 13 were non-executives. I will not claim that we were a very effective board at that. All I am trying to say is that what the Government are proposing is perfectly sensible and in line with general corporate practices. It seems to be entirely defensible.

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, the Bill reeks of the feeling that non-executive directors are a nuisance. Everywhere, we find the role of the non-executive directors in the Bank being reduced. This simple numerical reduction is something like arguing about the number of angels who can dance on a pin. None the less, let us remember why legislation was brought to this House and argued for so forcibly by the noble Lord, Lord Deighton. It was because the Bank of England was seen to have significantly failed during the financial crisis: in particular, that the Bank of England had not had sufficient alternative voices or challenge within its decision-making process. That is what underlay the Financial Services Act of, let me remind the Committee, 2012—just three years ago. From its vesting date to today, that Act has been in force for about two and a half years. How, after that period, can it be decided that the experience of the Act and the structures put in place by it were misconceived? This seems to be simply an attempt for the Bank to return to business as usual, ex ante—before the financial crisis. If the size of the court is too large then that should be the subject of a careful review and the evidence should be presented to this House. That has not been done. Where is the evidence?

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said that what the court does is of course not very much. I wonder whether she was listening to the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, just now when he said that the court is responsible for deciding delegation of powers within the Bank. That seems to me to be quite a lot. With respect, perhaps in the day of the noble Baroness the court did not do very much, but the 2012 Act was specifically designed to empower the court and to produce on it a variety of views and the potential for challenge. There is not much of an issue between seven and nine. The issue is: why is this being changed now? What was wrong in 2012 that is now to be righted and what evidence is there that the decisions which this House made in 2012 were misconceived?

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Baroness Noakes Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey]

I thank the Minister for that response. There is no argument about the value of the CEO of the FCA being on the FPC. I fear that I was completely unconvinced by the argument that one more external member would make the FPC collapse into chaos and disorder; that seems a bit far-fetched.

The difference between us is whether the independence that the noble Lord maintains that the CEO of the FCA has is true independence. The test he seems to apply is simply that, well, the FCA itself is kind of independent, so she is obviously independent. In fact, the Minister did not mention my major concern, which is the influence that the Bank itself has over the CEO of the FCA. I give way to my former noble friend.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, can the noble Lord explain why he thinks that the Bank has any influence whatever over the chief executive of the FCA? There are no provisions in statute that give any sense of influence, even, and I struggle to find where in practice you could point to where that influence could be deemed to exist.

[Lord Sharkey]

There are two partial answers to the noble Baroness’s question. The first is, as I mentioned, that the chief executive of the FCA can be summarily dismissed, presumably either at the instigation of the governor or at least with his permission and consultation—

[Baroness Noakes]

I ought to say two things to that. The chief executive of the FCA was not summarily sacked; as I understand it, he was informed that his contract would not be renewed, and there is a world of difference. As far as I am aware, there is no practical issue of the Governor of the Bank of England or any other senior official of the Bank of England having any locus in the decision whether to renew the chief executive’s contract. If the noble Lord has evidence of that, I should be happy to see it.

[Lord Sharkey]

The fine distinction between being summarily dismissed and not having his contract renewed temporarily escapes me, but I am sure that it will come to me. The point I am trying to make is that I believe that the Bank has influence over the CEO of the FCA. I was asking the Minister—because he did not deal with this—to explain why he clearly believes that it does not have influence over the head of the FCA.

I also point out, as I did in my initial speech, that the PRA itself can act to restrain and constrain the activities of the FCA, as I am sure the noble Baroness knows. The PRA is an organ of the Bank, so the actual independence of the FCA is somewhat compromised by that arrangement. That was the point that I was trying to make.

However, having said all that, and not being terribly convinced by the Minister’s arguments—I am sure that we will want to return to this later—in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, is being rather modest about these amendments. I think they are rather good. However, I do not understand why he has proposed amendments to Clauses 9 and 10 but not to new Section 7G introduced by Clause 11, which relates to the main value-for-money study power. Not being limited in the way that these amendments imply would be at least as important to the new powers introduced by Clause 11.

I hope the Minister’s reply is not cursory because this is quite an important point. We do not very often legislate on public audit matters. I can remember doing the Public Audit (Wales) Bill, and there was no restriction on the Comptroller and Auditor-General for Wales reasonably requiring certain information. Reasonable time was in the Bill, but not a requirement to demonstrate that he reasonably required the information. It seems to me that the more you try to constrain an auditor, the more you allow an organisation which is being audited to run rings around that auditor. Having been in the auditing profession, I feel rather strongly that we should not try to restrict auditors but should make it as easy as possible for them to get whatever information they want.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, is always modest, but on this occasion he is excessively so. I agree with my noble friend because the implication of putting the words “reasonable” and “reasonably” in these clauses is that somehow the National Audit Office would act unreasonably, and I do not believe that that is the case. Perhaps the Minister will tell us where else in the legislation governing the National Audit Office such clauses are applied. These are quite unnecessary words. It may well be that, given the more formal auditing functions of the National Audit Office, as against the value-for-money provisions, there might be some occasion when it is necessary to get hold of documents at an unreasonable time. I hope the Minister will respond to this and agree to delete the words which appear in the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I will briefly join in the debate. We have two very highly regarded independent organisations—the Bank of England and the NAO. I say to the Government that it is unfortunate that legislation has come forward without resolving the relationship between the two of them. This House should not be in this position today, and neither should either of those two institutions. I very much hope that the Government will take the advice proffered and bring these various parties together to get a resolution here. Both are key institutions that need to have their independence appropriately protected.

In answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, the two lines about which he was concerned a moment ago, which are taken out and replaced by what he read as almost two identical lines, almost get to the crux of this matter. The amendment strengthens that assurance that the NAO and the Comptroller and Auditor-General do not in any way seek to question the merits of policy objectives. It is trying to make that absolutely clear by putting in a stronger statement to that extent. The problem the NAO has, as the noble Lord, Lord McFall, said, is that due to the way in which the language is now drafted, the Bank effectively now has a veto over which studies are undertaken. Frankly, that is, I think, unacceptable to every party.

We in Parliament depend very much on the NAO and the reports it provides to us. It is very important for us to be able to receive that information, knowing that it is impartial and independent, for us to be able to perform the role we play. All the discussions today have talked of the importance of oversight. While we very much respect the Bank of England, we are all incredibly conscious that it has made very serious mistakes in the past which have cost us dear, and that we all need to play a role in interacting and making sure that we understand and are appropriately taking on our responsibilities toward that institution. Frankly, it is very hard to see how we in this House or in the other place can do that without effective reporting from the NAO.

I hope that the Government will take this matter away for reconsideration because these are significant concerns. I take great heart in hearing from the noble Lord, Lord McFall, that the Federal Reserve board in the United States is one of the bodies on this globe that most asserts its independence and integrity. The Federal Reserve accepts a similar kind of oversight from the US Government Accountability Office, and it seems to me that we have a template there. If it works for the Federal Reserve, surely it can work for the Bank of England.

I hope that these amendments will be taken exceedingly seriously. While the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, is not in a position to speak himself, there are many in this House, including the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, who will be able to appreciate the importance of the points that he would have made had he had the opportunity.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I support the amendments. I was deeply shocked to see that the Government proposed to give the Bank of England a veto over whether the Comptroller and Auditor-General could undertake a particular value-for-money study. I have believed for a long time that it has been an anomaly that the Bank of England has not been within the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. I do not believe that any public body, however great and however independent, should be able to stand on that greatness and independence and say, “I do not want the National Audit Office or the Comptroller and Auditor-General to examine what I have been doing”. Public audit can be effective only when it is unfettered, and the concept of fettering the Comptroller and Auditor-General is, frankly, unacceptable.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, first, I express regret that I was not able to speak at Second Reading. I was preoccupied with the European Union Referendum Bill and other matters. However, I am certainly deeply concerned, as are other noble Lords, about the situation that now seems to have developed in the relationship between the Bank of England and the National Audit Office. I am sure that my noble friend was right in saying a moment or two ago that this ought to be resolved on Report. If necessary, that is what we will need to do.

I have a long history of involvement in this matter. I was much involved—this shows how long ago it was—when it was first suggested that the National Audit Office should carry out value-for-money investigations. However, it is very important to ensure that the NAO remains completely independent. I share the view expressed a moment ago that it would be wholly wrong for the NAO to have to get the permission of the people being investigated to carry out a review. I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for explaining what I did not previously understand about the relationship between the amendment and the words being left out. I now understand the point that she made, which was extremely subtle, if I may say so.

Having said that, I am a little puzzled. I chaired the Treasury Select Committee for a decade or so and was succeeded by the noble Lord, Lord McFall. I was also a long-standing member of the Public Accounts Commission, which I chaired for some time. It is extremely important that we preserve the position of the NAO, and, as I said, I agree with those who say that it ought not to have to seek permission to carry out reviews.

I am just a little doubtful about what is meant by “policy”. This may turn out to be a rather fine line. For example, at the moment it seems to be the policy of the Bank, and indeed the governor, to give forward guidance on interest rates. That certainly needs inquiry as far as value for money is concerned, because the forecasts have been extraordinarily wrong on a number of occasions and a lot of people—for example, those renewing their mortgages—may have suffered considerably. In passing, I hope that the governor will reconsider whether that is an appropriate policy and perhaps no longer give forward guidance on interest rates.

The other points in relation to this matter have been made at Second Reading and in today’s debate. This is something that we have to resolve. We have to make sure that the relationship between the two bodies is maintained, otherwise the Comptroller and Auditor-General, very understandably, will have to think personally—the office of Comptroller and Auditor-General has always been a very personal one—about whether he can really operate in a situation where his independence is being questioned.