Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in expressing my sincere thanks to my noble friend the Minister for the progress that we have made. In all fairness to him, he said that since Second Reading he was listening, but we all know that it is sometimes possible to listen and not hear, let alone act. On this occasion, he heard and acted. I join other noble Lords in expressing my sincere gratitude for that.

I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Cumberlege. No one doubted her tenacity but it has been on display in bucketloads, and she has made the progress that her superb report deserves. More than anyone, I pay thanks to the army of campaigners; many of us have met them, and they could not help but move us with their stories. This legislation is ultimately for them and a tribute to them.

I had a close look at my noble friend the Minister’s amendment and compared it to that of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege. Clearly, there is a specific issue about where the organisation, the commissioner, should sit, but there is a precedent for doing that in the way in which the Minister suggested. I take confidence from his determination to give proper independence to the role. A lot will depend on the kind of person recruited, how they are recruited and to whom they are accountable. I should like him to say a little more about how he envisages that happening.

We also need to hear more detail on the timetable. The Minister will know that when one makes big commitments of this kind, they are staging posts—never the destination. There is still some way to go in making sure that we get there quickly. That is important, as my noble friend pointed out. However, the powers in the amendment are important to recognise. On the ability to demand information from relevant persons, as other noble Lords have said, we need to hear a little more about who they are and the consequences of non-compliance. However, they are powerful ways in which the commissioner can act and create change in the system. I have no doubt that they will be effective.

In conclusion, I make a couple of comments provided by the ABPI’s briefing. They relate to further questions around the nature of the relationship between the commissioner and the MHRA and other bodies, how the four nations of the UK will act together on patient safety, given that we are a single market, and ensuring diversity of patient voice.

I would also add one more thing to that. Patient safety is not just about finding out when medicines and devices go wrong; it is also about access to them. Will the patient commissioner have a remit to investigate these kinds of issues?

However, these questions are for tomorrow. Today, we want to recognise the progress that has been made and the amendments put down in the name of my noble friend. I thank him sincerely for them and I thank my noble friend Lady Cumberlege for her dedication to this particular cause.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I, too, add my congratulations to my noble friend the Minister and pay particular tribute to the tireless work of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege in bringing us this far. I welcome government Amendments 1 and 54.

I want to take this opportunity to mention two specific issues that we focused on in Committee and seek confirmation on where we are in this regard. I want in particular to look at the right of patients to report directly on their own experience, rather than waiting for the patient safety commissioner to investigate. I would welcome hearing that my noble friend the Minister imagines that the commissioner should have this power. If not, would he consider introducing such a measure at the first available opportunity? It is so important that the voice of patients is heard. I remember the accounts that my noble friend Lady Cumberlege gave in Committee of her work and that of her team in producing the report, First Do No Harm; that will be a lasting legacy. Allowing patients the right to report directly, without necessarily waiting to be asked, would cut through many of the difficulties with medicines and medical devices, and would enable the patient safety commissioner to report directly to the Government in this regard.

The only other point that I wish to make at this stage is that of the regulations that my noble friend envisages in the government amendments in this group. Can he confirm that these will be discussed and agreed with the devolved Administrations at the earliest possible stage? Can my noble friend assure us that if the devolved Administrations raise any significant issues or highlight any problems that they have with the draft regulations, these will be acted on before the regulations are adopted and sent to each House of Parliament?

We are in a very good place. I congratulate my noble friend Lady Cumberlege and her team on bringing us here, and I pay special tribute to my noble friend the Minister for listening to the concerns of so many people, over so many years, to bring us to where we are today. I wish the amendments godspeed.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I join the universal commendations for the Government for accepting the recommendation to introduce a patient safety commissioner. It demonstrates that campaigning can work for everybody, from school pupils to Premiership footballers to Members of the House of Lords—in this case supported by patients, many of them suffering from continuing illness and disability.

I want briefly to pick up three points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. The first is the importance of the commissioner being a person of standing. As the noble Baroness’s report clearly explains, there is a strong gender aspect to the fact that far too many patients have not been listened to, have been ignored and have been mistreated by the system. It is really important that the patient safety commissioner is well equipped to understand that and make themself accessible to all patients. As the noble Baroness said, it is clear that the patient safety commissioner should be a person of standing and the kind of person who should shape the role that they will ultimately fulfil.

That brings me to my second point, which the noble Baroness and many others have stressed: the urgency of this appointment. As has already been pointed out, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner has been appointed before we have even passed the Domestic Abuse Bill. That is very much a model. I have a direct question for the Minister. It should not be beyond the capacity of the department to advertise this role within, say, one month. If he does not think that this timetable is reasonable, can he suggest what he thinks a reasonable timetable is? The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, also asked this. I also echo the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, that it is crucial that this appointment has Select Committee scrutiny.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, who again has raised an important issue. The amendment in this group which more broadly encompass all those elements that go to make the United Kingdom a favourable location for research and the manufacture and supply of medicines gives us an opportunity to make sure that we have got that right.

I support the government amendments in this group and add my thanks to those expressed to the Minister and the Bill team for the immensely constructive way in which they responded to the amendments that we brought forward in Committee and in many related discussions. At Second Reading, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and I were worried that the Bill was skeletal. We wanted to put a bit of flesh on its bones and make it more of a framework Bill—I think that is a bit of a theme. In the spirit of the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, it might be helpful if I briefly explained what we were trying to achieve, and how these government amendments appear to have responded well to that.

First, even following the initial changes, the structure of the powers was not objective; they were that the relevant Minister was satisfied that the regulations met certain requirements. What we were looking for from the outset was an objective test. My noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy asked what that objective test was and why we chose to continue with the structure of safeguarding public health? The short answer is that it is because that is the objective in the European Union regulation; it is not an objective in that context which relates to the internal market provisions. To have moved away from the objective of safeguarding public health would run the risk of it being interpreted as somehow different from the past objective on the basis of which decisions had been made and regulations pursued. That seemed entirely appropriate as an encompassing and overarching objective for all these related requirements. I am happy that the Government’s amendment has taken that forward as an objective measure against which the regulations, the use of these powers, can be tested.

Secondly, we wanted to make sure that safety was built into the structure of regulation-making powers. We had an extremely helpful debate about that, and I think that it was clear that, while we wanted to make safety central to what was being achieved, it would not be appropriate to make it an overriding objective. That would have led to the regulator being required effectively to eliminate risk. That brings me to the point made by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege. We then came to the further question of how, if safety is the issue, we then manage the test of whether benefits outweigh risks, sufficiently so for regulations to be proceeded with. The answer is that the objective is not to eliminate risk; it is to eliminate harm. We must make a distinction between those two things.

Making safety the overriding objective would have meant us having to eliminate risk. At the moment, we balance benefits and risks, not benefits and harms. When my noble friend Lady Cumberlege asked her question, I think she was suggesting that we were having to balance benefits and harms, whereas on pretty much every occasion the regulator is asked to undertake an authorisation they have to balance benefits and risks, because we can never eliminate risk. The question is: can we quantify it? That is what the trials and the data are meant to enable us to do—to quantify the benefits and risks. In making an authorisation, can we make sure that we have avoided harm but at the same time realised those benefits?

These amendments get us to that balance. They enable us to give an objective test against which the powers can be measured; they enable us to put safety clearly at the heart of the thinking about how the powers are to be used, and they enable the regulator to undertake that appropriate measurement of benefits and risks. I support the amendments and appreciate the way in which we have arrived at this place by constructive discussion.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome Amendment 5 and others in this group. I echo the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, in complimenting both the Minister and the Bill team on their expert handling of this part of the Bill.

I find the sentiment behind Amendment 12 attractive and endorse entirely the words of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege and others who have supported her in wanting to avoid “harm”. The idea of a threshold, as solicited in Amendment 12, seems helpful. I have a question for my noble friend the Minister to which I would be grateful for a response. We are told in the explanatory statement that the amendment would require the Secretary of State

“to publish the criteria that will be used by the appropriate authority”—

obviously not yet set up—

“to determine whether the benefits of regulations that may impact on the safety of human medicines outweigh the risk”

and

“to allow for greater transparency and scrutiny.”

My noble friend said that the Government intended to publish the initial assessments. It would be helpful to know when that would be.

There currently seems to be a gap in the law; for example, as regards the vaccinations—I know that this was debated earlier today. The Government have unilaterally extended the time between the first dose and the second dose of Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines from three weeks—21 days—to up to 12 weeks. No other European country that I am aware of has done this. It is true that Denmark is looking to extend it to a maximum of between four and six weeks, which is nearer the initial three-week period. I presume that, if what is proposed by Amendment 12 were law, the Government would be obliged to publish the arguments in the interests of transparency, openness and scrutiny as to how they had reached that decision. If that were the case, I would be minded to support Amendment 12.

Otherwise, I welcome Amendments 4 and 5 and others in the group, which look to establish the overarching objective as being public health. I like the formulation of words that the Government have hit on and hope that they will stick with it. I shall be interested to hear how my noble friend responds, but, as I see it, there is some merit in Amendment 12.