Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard
Wednesday 3rd March 2021 Lords Chamber

I finally note that Amendments 12, 24 and 25 call for the reviews to be conducted within one year of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. Given that the Bill deals with sentences that could carry long custodial periods, I respectfully point out that it would be difficult to establish any impact after so short a period. The Bill will be subject to the usual practice of post-legislative scrutiny three years after it receives Royal Assent, which has greater potential to identify any possible effects. In light of this, and the existing position of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, who already has authority to review this legislation, I do not believe these amendments to be necessary, and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

I have received a request from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to ask a short question of the Minister.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]]

My Lords, on that last point, I take it that the post-legislative scrutiny referred to is separate from the review of polygraph testing after three years, to which the Minister referred. On that, while I take his point about parliamentary scrutiny of regulations, codes of practice may not be statutory and therefore not subject to that sort of scrutiny. Might the Minister take back the suggestion that, following the very helpful sessions that the MoJ arranged during the course of the Bill on a number of matters, for which we were very grateful, Ministers might consider communicating with—and possibly even consulting—noble Lords in framing the review in three or so years’ time? I do not expect him to make a commitment now, but I would like to put that idea in his and his colleagues’ heads.

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Amendment 13 not moved.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, we now come to the group beginning with Amendment 14. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in the group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 34: TPIMs: condition as to involvement in terrorism-related activity

Amendment 14

Moved by

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[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, we come now to the group beginning with Amendment 19. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 38: TPIMs: polygraph measure

Amendment 19

Moved by

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Some of the questions asked by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, may be better answered when those regulations are made and scrutinised. I will certainly consult the Official Report and make sure that his questions receive a response. On the basis of all that, I hope noble Lords will be willing to withdraw or not move all three amendments.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is not available, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]]

Our views are very close, but we have not actually changed personalities yet. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, asked some extremely pertinent questions as the basis for an assessment of whether it was appropriate for the clause to remain in the Bill. It is a great shame that we have not had the answers to that list of questions; I do not think any could have come as a surprise.

May I pursue one point? Because there is a regulation-making power in new paragraph 10ZA, it is not necessary to have a reference to a code of practice. I have sat through many debates when we have been told that codes of practice are so useful because they are flexible; they can be tweaked without having to go through the legislative process. I have to say that I am quite surprised by that answer. I do not know whether we are being told that the rules that apply under the Offender Management Act in other situations when polygraph sessions are used are the rules that will apply. It is my fault; I got slightly lost during that part of the debate. It may be my perception only but, as I heard the answers, there seemed to be a lot of repetition of what is in the Bill, not answers to concerns which underlie the amendments.

When we get to it, depending on who the broadcasters go to, one of us will move Amendment 21. For now, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 19.

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Amendment 22 agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

We come to the group consisting of Amendment 23. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Clause 44: Persons vulnerable to being drawn into terrorism: timing of independent review

Amendment 23

Moved by