Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Maddock Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

I shall speak to Amendment 160A which is in this group. It follows on from what my noble friend Lady Smith said about transparency, information and confidence in the field of energy conservation. As noble Lords will know, this is a rerun of Amendment 34 in Committee. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, for her tireless work in supporting energy conservation and for moving the amendment eloquently in Committee. She emphasised the lack of interest of Governments over the years in the issue of saving energy rather than producing more to meet an often unnecessary demand. My noble friend Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan supported her and urged publication of the information.

I am trying again to see whether I can squeeze a little more out of Ministers at this stage. I pay tribute to the Association for the Conservation of Energy which has been tireless in promoting this part of the energy debate on conservation, which is often put into the “too difficult” category by government. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, responded in Committee and said that the Government are already obliged to report annually to Parliament on the progress towards legally binding carbon budgets. She also said that,

“the principle of this amendment is sensible and laudable, although we feel that the case for specific reporting from Government may be stronger for the energy company obligation”.—[Official Report, 19/1/11; col. GC 107.]

Surely the information on conservation is as important as is the information on energy production.

I remind the House of a few facts given in Committee. The European Climate Foundation reports that emissions from buildings can be reduced by 95 per cent, which breaks down into 40 per cent from reduced demand and 45 per cent as a result of the electrification of heating. It is important to bring all these figures together at least in one report—we can debate whether or not it is annual—given the enormous challenges the Government have in meeting our carbon reduction targets.

It is also worth reminding the House that Chris Huhne, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, said that the cheapest way of closing the gap between energy demand and supply is to cut energy use. Many other Ministers have said similar things. The Association for the Conservation of Energy has been calling for a cost benefit assessment of energy saving for many years and it asked the Government about six months ago whether they had carried out a long-term assessment of the costs and benefits of energy saving and efficiency as against those of energy generation. The answer was that there was nothing specific in the public domain. I suggest that there should be because consumers need that information. I hope that when the Minister responds he will accept the principle of the amendment and agree that the Government should publish a cost-benefit assessment. How can the Government have properly thought through their overall energy policy without that? If they do not have that information, they should have. If they do have it, perhaps they should publish it.

I refer noble Lords to the Long Title of the Bill, which refers in line 5 to,

“information relating to energy consumption, efficiency and tariffs”.

It would be a small step for the Government to produce a report and then we would know both sides of the equation: the production; and the consumption and conservation.

[Baroness Maddock]

As has already been said, I moved a similar amendment in Committee so I am happy to support the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, today. At a time when we are trying to persuade people about all the things we need to do to tackle climate change and CO₂ production, we ought to have the best analysis and figures to back up our arguments.

There is little I can add to what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, but if we are to persuade the sceptics, we need the very best figures. I withdrew my amendment in Committee—we were in Grand Committee and we could not go any further—but I hope that since our discussion the Government have looked at this and thought, “Why on earth can't we do it?”. It is not that difficult. There is lots of information available to draw the figures together. That would be very helpful for all of us. A lot of time and energy is going into the Bill because we believe that it is the right way forward. Let us have the complete evidence to back it up.

I hope that, even if the Government cannot say yes today, they will go away to look at the common sense behind the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly on this matter and ask for a response from the Minister, possibly in writing as she may not have the information to hand. Quite a few vicarages might benefit from the Green Deal. Older vicarages are typically not well insulated and not particularly well looked after over time by their impecunious residents. They are prime candidates for insulation improvements but they are neither private rented nor social housing as such. Indeed, they are typically occupied under a form of licence. It would be helpful to be told either now or in writing—the Minister may prefer to reply in writing—how the Green Deal arrangements will apply to a considerable stock of houses that are occupied under licence by office holders such as clergy.

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for responding to issues that I raised in Committee. I was anxious that as many dwellings as possible came within the scope of the Bill, particularly in the private rented sector. I discussed the position of agricultural tenancies, certain tenancies under the Housing Act 1988 and houses in multiple occupation. I sought a provision that would enable the Minister to include any property that he considered appropriate. That point has been answered but in Committee confusion arose over agricultural tenancies. In Committee on 24 January, the Minister assured me that agricultural tenancies were already covered in the Bill but on 26 January he changed his mind and said that they were not. Therefore, I am not clear where we are on agricultural tenancies. Some agricultural tenancies are in a similar position to that of vicarages. Even if my noble friend is unable to answer today, there is some confusion on this issue, and I should be grateful for clarification on which other tenancies the Minister is minded to include. I assume that this will be done through secondary legislation, but I am not entirely satisfied that the Minister has responded to the queries on these important issues.

[Baroness Northover]

I thank noble Lords for their general welcome for these amendments. Perhaps I may pick up the various points that have been made. The purpose of these amendments is to ensure that the Bill covers as wide a range of properties as possible. Therefore, I can confirm that both the categories that have been mentioned would be included within it. In fact, we pay particular tribute to the church for its leadership in this field and for seeking to move to zero carbon. I can confirm that the church properties would fall within this arrangement, as would agricultural tenancies. However, if noble Lords want more specific information, I am sure that we can arrange discussions between them and officials on all the details. I hope that I can reassure noble Lords that the purpose is to be as inclusive as possible in the Green Deal, and that is what the government amendments seek to achieve.