Public Service Pensions

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to try to clear up any misunderstandings on this. As the DCLG has made clear this afternoon, it is in discussion with the unions to resolve any misunderstanding and reassure them that the intentions of the department and of the Government have not changed. It would seem that the unions have read more into the letter that was issued today than was intended by the DCLG. No new conditions are being imposed by the department. In order to iron out any ambiguity, the department will be issuing a new letter to make clear that there is no ambiguity, there is only one deal and there are no conditions. Therefore, I am confident that this can be resolved quickly, but as noble Lords will understand, there have been many deals with a lot of unions and several departments. We must clear up this ambiguity that has slipped in on one particular aspect.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, the Government and the unions that have signed the heads of agreement deserve congratulations on having achieved this in this day and age, given the immediate financial pressures and the reality that we will all live much longer and therefore need pensions for a much longer period in our lives. They have achieved an agreement that retains defined benefit schemes—when the private sector has essentially abandoned that and gone on to defined contribution schemes—and have provided protection for those approaching retirement and for those on the lowest incomes. That is a real achievement by both sides and we ought to acknowledge it.

However, I wish to ask the Minister two questions. Can he clarify for us where the negotiations now stand with the PCS? The experience that has been described tonight demonstrates that negotiation has to be the way forward, not strikes. The Minister said that the PCS had walked away. The newspapers used the phrase, “not invited to future talks”. Can he clarify what he sees as the progress that can be made in that regard—preferably progress which does not inflict any more strikes on the long-suffering British public?

Secondly, can the Minister expand a little on an area I find most intriguing: namely, the position of staff transferring from the public service to the voluntary or private sectors or to social enterprises who will retain access to a public service pension? I cite the example of the NHS in that regard. Should we see that in narrow terms, or are we moving towards an arrangement which will allow a much more flexible structure for future public services as technology and demand change, creating the opportunity for movement in and out of different organisational arrangements? Is this the first building block of something larger, or is it just something to be seen narrowly within the terms of this negotiation?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for welcoming this deal. She rightly points out that it means that public sector workers have among the best pensions available in this country, including defined benefit schemes which are not now generally available to people entering private sector schemes. Therefore, I endorse entirely her comments in that respect.

The PCS has not agreed to put the final design of the Civil Service scheme to its executives. It is important to remember that the PCS represents fewer than 5 per cent of the members of the public service schemes and discussions will continue without it. We believe that the final deal—it is a final deal—is a good one and that the remaining unions will recommend it to their members. We are clear that what has been set out today is the Government’s final position.

My noble friend asked about the ability of members exiting a public sector employer to remain in the pension scheme under the “Fair Deal” provision. Implicit in her question was the notion that this may have wider implications. I certainly think that this opens up all sorts of possibilities, whether in relation to the mutualisation of services or the ability of people to come in and out of the public sector.