Children and Families Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

I associate myself with the eloquent remarks of someone whom I consider to be very much my noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley.

Having been involved in the discussions as we have gone through the various stages of this Bill, I am extremely pleased with where we have come out, which is a far more consistent package of rights to assessment and support for parent carers. They will now be on a level playing field with young carers and carers of adults. The two Bills together, this Bill and the Care Bill, will make a huge difference to carers. In this amendment, we are thinking particularly of parent carers and the important role that they play.

We are hugely in the debt of carers as a whole in this country for their very hard and self-sacrificing work, and I am absolutely delighted that legislation is now almost on the statute book which recognises that. I pay tribute to the Minister and his officials for listening and responding, and for working so hard to get us to where we are.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, as one who has been part of the process of this Bill almost from day one and who has watched the amazing progress that has been made, I want to thank the Minister for two things. The first, which has already been discussed, is the ability to provide education facilities for young offenders within institutions, which is a major step forward; the other is this amendment.

Parent carers should of course have the same consideration as other carers. To see parent carers of disabled children and their general well-being now being considered on the same basis is a huge tribute to the Minister and his team, who we have seen so effectively listen and respond to so many of these amendments. Even though I happened to be the mover of one amendment which did not get quite as far as I wanted it to, I share every bit of the appreciation for the work that has gone on behind the scenes as well as on the Front Benches. I thank everybody involved.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly to say two things. The first is that I understood some of the early concerns about ensuring that all children in need receive equal attention and about the difficulties when one group might find themselves with greater attention. I understand where the noble Lord was coming from in trying to think through that issue, but in our discussions it was quite clear—I think he understood—that, if you work with these as a family, you are not actually giving more attention. If the assessment can be done as a family, then it works as a holistic measure. Secondly, I want to pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. Without her indefatigable work for carers, we probably would not be where we are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I am conscious that my amendment is something of an oddity today because it is the only non-government amendment on the list. I raise it because I still have hopes that it might become a government amendment. It is an amplification of a point that I raised on Report, and about which I asked a supplementary question of the Minister.

The issue concerns the Children’s Commissioner and the request that he or she would share equal footing with the equality and human rights commissioner in being able to bring cases under the Human Rights Act. On Report, the Minister said that initiating and intervening in legal proceedings was, in the Government’s view, implicit within the commissioner’s primary function; I certainly took that at face value. Following on, he said that the commissioner would have sufficient interest in a case, because of his or her statutory role to promote and protect children’s rights, to satisfy any judge who might question the right of the commissioner to intervene. He emphasised that the Government did not wish to put into the Bill anything to do with such a right, but assured me in answer to a supplementary question that incoming commissioners would be briefed on their powers in bringing cases before courts.

Unfortunately, about half an hour before the Public Bill Office closed for business last night, the Children’s Rights Alliance for England contacted me, having consulted legally—unfortunately, after the good meeting I had earlier had with Ministers about the Bill. The alliance pointed out that, currently, the Children’s Commissioner is actually prohibited from bringing legal proceedings under the Human Rights Act because to do so you have to be a victim. The Children’s Commissioner does not qualify as a victim in a case.

This was got around for the equality and human rights commissioner through a clause in the Equality Act 2006, which made an amendment to Section 7 of the Human Rights Act, allowing the equality and human rights commissioner to bring legal proceedings. All I am seeking, as I did on Report, is to acknowledge the Minister saying that he agreed that the two commissioners should have equal rights; and that amendments, instead of being made to the Equality Act, should be made to this Bill and to the Children Act 2004, to allow the Children’s Commissioner to bring things forward without running into the risk of being prohibited to do so by something which I suspect was not meant by the Government or anyone else. That is why I move the amendment. I apologise for doing so at this late hour, but we have made so much progress in the Bill that I hope that the Minister, in the spirit in which he has tackled everything else, will feel able to reconsider my original request.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I support everything that my noble friend has said. I very much hope that the Minister will find a way to make this a possibility.

[Lord Nash]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for tabling the amendment, and congratulate him on the speed with which he grasped the moment to do so. This offers an opportunity to provide further clarity on the matter.

In a nutshell, the amendment would mean that, when seeking to bring a case under the Human Rights Act, the commissioner would be exempt from the requirement that he or she must be the victim in the case. This would replicate a provision in the legislative framework of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and would in effect put the Children’s Commissioner on the same footing as the EHRC. I have several reservations in respect of the proposed amendment. I am happy to discuss the point further with the noble Lord, but I must state those reservations now.

First, I do not accept that the Children’s Commissioner and the equality and human rights commissioner have the same role. As I have indicated at various stages during the passage of the Bill, we see the role of the Children’s Commissioner as being largely strategic, whereas the EHRC has oversight of both strategic human rights issues and individual casework. The amendment would give the commissioner a power to pursue individual cases under the Human Rights Act, which would increase the risk that the OCC loses its strategic focus. Noble Lords will appreciate that we have tried to avoid that.