Children and Families Bill

Baroness Howarth of Breckland Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

My Lords, my name was also on the original amendment tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I regret that the phrase,

“the welfare of the child”,

has not been retained. I am pleased that the Government have taken this as far as they have. Emotions run very high during divorce and separation proceedings and where children are used as chattels in the battle. For all the reasons that the noble and learned Baroness has already outlined, there is still a perception that it means shared parenting. I encourage Ministers to continue the battle—with the media, if you like—to ensure that that message does not go forward.

As a previous chair of the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, I know how strongly some fathers will battle on, even if they really do not want care of the child. I say that as someone who has a strong belief in having two parents and had a wonderful father of my own. I always think it is important to say that because, if you are talking about difficult fathers, you need to make it clear that you are pro-fathers. I hope that the Government will do all they can to ensure that it is the welfare of the child that will count when this amendment moves forward.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, first and rather belatedly, I welcome the Minister. I can tell him that he missed a lot of very interesting discussions in his absence, but I am sure that he is well acquainted with where we have reached with the Bill. We look forward to working with him on these issues in the future.

Our names were also added to the amendment in Committee and on Report, so we feel we have a little ownership of it. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, put it very well: there seems to be an established procedure that our wording can never be quite good enough and that it has to be corrected. We accept that the current wording is marginally better in terms of tidying up, so we are grateful for that. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, have said, the important thing now is how this is communicated because there was some miscommunication before. We are grateful to hear the plans that the Minister has for publicity because we would stress how important it is to get the message out there by whatever means necessary. Having said that, we are pleased to support the amendment.

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[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

My Lords, in speaking to Amendments 4, 5 and 33, I commend the Minister and his officials for engaging with noble Lords on all sides on the issue of a single point of appeal.

Amendments 4 and 5 move some way towards putting in place the missing piece of the jigsaw: a unified system of redress. Noble Lords, and indeed the Minister, have spoken of the exasperation that many families feel when they are up against a system that too many feel is adversarial. A petition organised by the National Autistic Society secured 15,000 signatures in support of a single point of appeal. I declare an interest as a vice-president of the National Autistic Society. Many families have battled the bureaucratic quagmire to gain access to support that they desperately need.

To date, we have not had a cogent explanation as to why the First-tier Tribunal, which sits in the Health, Education and Social Care Chamber, cannot hear appeals on all three elements of the education, health and care plan. Joining up redress across the three services is undoubtedly a complicated business, and the review of complaints and appeals promised by the Government, together with the pilots testing an expanded role for the tribunal, will provide us with an opportunity to work out how best to achieve our common objective. The consequences of not doing this have been spelt out and the Minister has certainly listened.

Turning to Amendment 33, the review of resolution of disagreements, together with the pilots testing an expanded role for the tribunal, will provide a pivotal opportunity to fully overcome the barriers to creating a unified appeals process. The Government’s policy statement about the review uses different terminology to describe the scope of the review and pilots. The review and pilots must consider the full range of options, including both appeals and complaints. This is vital for ensuring that parents trust the new system and that in the long run it will be truly responsive to the needs of children, young people and their families. The review and the pilots must include the possibility of the tribunal hearing both complaints and appeals, which should be fully explored.

It is welcome that the amendment places a duty on the Secretary of State and Lord Chancellor to lay the resulting report before Parliament. This is an important way of ensuring scrutiny and further informed discussion around these key areas. However, the amendment to Clause 74 does not outline any duty to consider the findings or to reflect the findings in regulations. This leaves the outstanding question as to what duty there will be on the Secretary of State and Lord Chancellor to respond to any recommendation to undertake definitive action as a consequence. In his opening remarks, the Minister went some way to try to explain how that will happen. I will read Hansard carefully and I hope that we will all end up in the same place at the end of the day.

I commend the Government on the substantial progress that has been made in the Bill. However, there is an outstanding concern about the transition from education to adulthood, particularly for young people and young adults with autism. Transition is a key focus of the Bill. At present the draft code of practice makes no reference to the Autism Act 2009. The draft code should signpost professionals towards this Act and the statutory guidance so that they can understand the needs of and their duties towards children and young people with autism. Will the Government consider signposting that within the code of practice and ensure that these reforms are adequately reflected in the transition section of the renewed autism strategy, which the Government are now about to undertake?

On Second Reading, I said that the House had the potential to turn the Bill into a landmark piece of legislation. Noble Lords on all sides have worked hard to ensure that the Bill achieves its stated intention: the improvement of the system of special educational needs for children, young people and their parents. To be fair, the Government have listened and worked constructively with those who sought to make changes. The Bill is intended to create a person-centred system which deploys a joined-up approach to delivering education, health and care needs for children with special educational needs. For that, we are all most grateful.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I am not very good at accolades, but I just add to what has been said about the Minister’s capacity to listen and respond. It has indeed been remarkable and extremely helpful, so I hope that he will forgive me for asking a few more questions—it is in my nature.

I turn to the question of mediation. I had a number of exchanges with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, about the definition of mediation. I hope that the Minister can say for the record that mediation here has the widest definition. We know that some mediators operate a particular structure of mediation which can be very narrow and unhelpful to some of the programmes that are being developed. There are some innovative programmes of intervention on the mediation spectrum, and I hope that those are what we will have under the helpful government amendments.

On a rather unhappy note, all those provisions will be costly at a time when local government is facing further cuts. I know that the Local Government Association—I declare an interest as vice-president—is concerned about the implications. With the best will in the world, those who wish to provide services are sometimes inhibited from doing what they would like by the sheer cost. I noticed that the Minister mentioned a sum in his introduction. Perhaps he could clarify that—it went rather quickly across my thinking. We need to know whether some of the money will be clearly ring-fenced for local authorities to use for those very specific pieces of work.

On the review of tribunals—again, I think this is utterly remarkable—if the Government are able to achieve that joined-up piece of work, then we are well on the way. I am not sure that I would call it the holy grail of joined-up services, but it is what we have all been working towards for a very long time, and we are much further along the track than we have ever been.

I hear what the Minister said about the end date, but can he say when the start date is likely to be? The start date is really important in relation to the amount of time that will be available before the end of the two or three years, whichever is to be proposed.

Again, I add my gratitude to that of others for what we have achieved in the Bill. I hope that the Minister will take as much interest in its implementation as in its legislation.

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[Lord Ribeiro (Con)]

My Lords, I add my appreciation to my noble friend the Minister for getting us to the point where we are today. Little did I wonder when I introduced my Private Member’s Bill way back in July 2012 that we would actually be at this position. As the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Tyler, rightly said, this has been a cross-party initiative right across the House. I am grateful for the conversations that I have had with my noble friend and for the way in which the Government have shifted their position both publicly and privately. That is very rewarding.

Thanks to the Tube strike today, I came in by taxi. The best way to find out what the average member of the British public thinks about anything is to ask your taxi driver. I noted that he had a no-smoking sign in his cab. I asked, “What do you think about this Bill on smoking in cars that we might be able to resolve today?”. He held up a packet of cigarettes, to my surprise, and said, “I’m a smoker. I don’t smoke in the cab, I go outside to smoke. Why would anybody want to smoke in a car with children present? Why would they?”. That was his reaction. When we know that 85% of smokers think that it is bonkers to smoke in a car when children are present, we realise that we have finally made the point that this is more about child protection—protecting young children with young lungs, who are likely to end up with long-term respiratory problems—than it is about removing personal liberties.

I hope that the Government will continue to re-energise this educational programme because it is that 15% of the public who do not recognise the importance of not smoking in cars that we need to get at. I have every confidence that the Government will do so. Legislation can always be used as a blunt instrument but it is interesting that, since the seat-belt legislation was brought in, the current compliance rate is more than 90%. Some 95% of people who clunk-click would never even think of driving off without putting their seat belts on. In years to come, I hope that people will wonder why they ever smoked in cars with children present.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, somehow I never manage to get my name on amendments, but it never prevents me from speaking. I welcome the package of measures being proposed. Ever since I introduced the amendment that stopped smoking in the Peers’ Guest Room, I have been one of the team quietly working towards the place that we have now reached. The Minister must forgive me if I ask him to say where we are and when we will reach the point at which all these measures will be implemented.

I muttered to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, “Is it going to happen, or not? Or is it simply a power that a Minister will have?” Can the Minister give us a clearer picture as to when it will happen? I am still waiting for the shutters to go down in 2015 on tobacco in small shops. Every year it means that more children are not protected by all the methods that he wishes to introduce.

I have watched the noble Earl’s own journey. I believe he has always wanted to be here. He has taken us steadily, and somewhat cleverly, through to a point where the industry which was vociferous in its opposition has no representatives present here today. That is a very interesting position to have reached. I am immensely grateful for that but, with my usual impatience, I want to know when the implementation date will be.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, I am not going to break the consensus but I must declare an interest—as I did previously—in that I am an associate member of the Lords and Commons Cigar and Pipe Smokers’ Club.

This House has made its decisions on these matters and it is not for me, nor anyone else, to say that it was wrong, particularly since one of the amendments was voted on and carried. The House of Commons has yet to consider these amendments and I have no doubt that it will do so in its wisdom and in the knowledge that one of its duties is to protect all minorities, as well as majorities.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, helpfully quoted a Minister as saying that the policy of the Government was to stamp out smoking altogether. That is fair enough, but if that is their view—if they believe that smoking is so dangerous that it ought to be stamped out altogether—why do they not bring forward a Bill to make tobacco smoking illegal? I have asked that question before; I have never had an answer, and I doubt very much whether I am going to get an answer today. Those who take to smoking provide the Treasury with about £10.5 billion in extra revenue every year. An honest Government—a Government who put principle before financial gain—would say that this is so dangerous that we ought not to allow it to happen. I do not think that the Government will say that today.

I wish to ask one or two questions for clarification in relation to Amendment 41. The noble Earl has said “smoking in cars” several times today, but that is not what the amendment says. Amendment 41 refers to where a person under the age of 18 is present “in the vehicle”. There are many more vehicles than cars. I do not want to be helpful to the Government, but I am being helpful in pointing this out.

This clarification is necessary because, of course, there are other kinds of vehicle. What about motor caravans? They are not cars—they are big lorries, if anything. Is smoking to be banned in a motor caravan, which is a living space? A towed caravan is also a living space. Will they be affected? What about rickshaws? Smoking in cabs, incidentally, is already banned, if I am not mistaken, under previous legislation. We do not have a ban on rickshaws but we do have rickshaws in London. Are they vehicles? These matters ought to be clarified.

Another kind of vehicle that someone raised with me—I did not think of it myself—is a motor launch. Is that a vehicle? Will smoking be banned in launches when children are present?

These matters need clarifying and the Government will have the opportunity in another place to make those clarifications. I hope that I have been helpful.

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[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, as one who has been part of the process of this Bill almost from day one and who has watched the amazing progress that has been made, I want to thank the Minister for two things. The first, which has already been discussed, is the ability to provide education facilities for young offenders within institutions, which is a major step forward; the other is this amendment.

Parent carers should of course have the same consideration as other carers. To see parent carers of disabled children and their general well-being now being considered on the same basis is a huge tribute to the Minister and his team, who we have seen so effectively listen and respond to so many of these amendments. Even though I happened to be the mover of one amendment which did not get quite as far as I wanted it to, I share every bit of the appreciation for the work that has gone on behind the scenes as well as on the Front Benches. I thank everybody involved.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly to say two things. The first is that I understood some of the early concerns about ensuring that all children in need receive equal attention and about the difficulties when one group might find themselves with greater attention. I understand where the noble Lord was coming from in trying to think through that issue, but in our discussions it was quite clear—I think he understood—that, if you work with these as a family, you are not actually giving more attention. If the assessment can be done as a family, then it works as a holistic measure. Secondly, I want to pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. Without her indefatigable work for carers, we probably would not be where we are.

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, for welcoming this amendment and echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, has just said about her tireless efforts in this area. It is entirely down to her that we are where we are. I would also like to thank her for her comments about repentance and my noble friend Lady Tyler and the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe and Lady Howarth, for their words.

As I said previously, we cannot underestimate the contribution that parent carers of disabled children make. It is right that we recognise the particular challenges that they face in supporting their families. I am very pleased that we are able to bring parent carers of disabled children into the Children and Families Bill today.