Children and Families Bill

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, somehow I never manage to get my name on amendments, but it never prevents me from speaking. I welcome the package of measures being proposed. Ever since I introduced the amendment that stopped smoking in the Peers’ Guest Room, I have been one of the team quietly working towards the place that we have now reached. The Minister must forgive me if I ask him to say where we are and when we will reach the point at which all these measures will be implemented.

I muttered to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, “Is it going to happen, or not? Or is it simply a power that a Minister will have?” Can the Minister give us a clearer picture as to when it will happen? I am still waiting for the shutters to go down in 2015 on tobacco in small shops. Every year it means that more children are not protected by all the methods that he wishes to introduce.

I have watched the noble Earl’s own journey. I believe he has always wanted to be here. He has taken us steadily, and somewhat cleverly, through to a point where the industry which was vociferous in its opposition has no representatives present here today. That is a very interesting position to have reached. I am immensely grateful for that but, with my usual impatience, I want to know when the implementation date will be.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, I am not going to break the consensus but I must declare an interest—as I did previously—in that I am an associate member of the Lords and Commons Cigar and Pipe Smokers’ Club.

This House has made its decisions on these matters and it is not for me, nor anyone else, to say that it was wrong, particularly since one of the amendments was voted on and carried. The House of Commons has yet to consider these amendments and I have no doubt that it will do so in its wisdom and in the knowledge that one of its duties is to protect all minorities, as well as majorities.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, helpfully quoted a Minister as saying that the policy of the Government was to stamp out smoking altogether. That is fair enough, but if that is their view—if they believe that smoking is so dangerous that it ought to be stamped out altogether—why do they not bring forward a Bill to make tobacco smoking illegal? I have asked that question before; I have never had an answer, and I doubt very much whether I am going to get an answer today. Those who take to smoking provide the Treasury with about £10.5 billion in extra revenue every year. An honest Government—a Government who put principle before financial gain—would say that this is so dangerous that we ought not to allow it to happen. I do not think that the Government will say that today.

I wish to ask one or two questions for clarification in relation to Amendment 41. The noble Earl has said “smoking in cars” several times today, but that is not what the amendment says. Amendment 41 refers to where a person under the age of 18 is present “in the vehicle”. There are many more vehicles than cars. I do not want to be helpful to the Government, but I am being helpful in pointing this out.

This clarification is necessary because, of course, there are other kinds of vehicle. What about motor caravans? They are not cars—they are big lorries, if anything. Is smoking to be banned in a motor caravan, which is a living space? A towed caravan is also a living space. Will they be affected? What about rickshaws? Smoking in cabs, incidentally, is already banned, if I am not mistaken, under previous legislation. We do not have a ban on rickshaws but we do have rickshaws in London. Are they vehicles? These matters ought to be clarified.

Another kind of vehicle that someone raised with me—I did not think of it myself—is a motor launch. Is that a vehicle? Will smoking be banned in launches when children are present?

These matters need clarifying and the Government will have the opportunity in another place to make those clarifications. I hope that I have been helpful.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome these amendments and I congratulate the noble Earl and all concerned. With this legislation there must be education. Smoking is a public health matter and I hope that local authorities will take up these measures with great energy and that the other place will accept them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords from all parts of the House for their support for the government amendments, and I thank all noble Lords who have been so energetic and assiduous in this area of policy for the action that they have taken, and the focus that they have afforded to Ministers to promote the health of young people under 18 in this respect. I completely concur with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who told us how addictive nicotine is: tobacco use remains the single biggest preventable cause of death in England. We surely must do all we can to encourage communities to make tobacco less desirable and less accessible, if we are to stop the perpetuation of smoking from one generation to the next.

My noble friend Lord Ribeiro was right, too. The purpose of the amendments is to protect children and young people from the harms of tobacco use and a lifetime of nicotine addiction. I was intrigued and interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, about the retailer registration scheme in Scotland, and I do indeed undertake to look at it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, asked me to be a little more precise about the timetable for implementation across the piece. As regards nicotine products, we have not taken a decision on timing. It will be partly dependent on the timetable for laying and making regulations, but the Government want to move as quickly as possible to get the provisions in place. As regards standardised packaging, the timetable will be wholly dependent on the decision the Government take once we have received Sir Cyril Chantler’s report, and we have not taken that decision yet. On proxy purchasing, we need to engage with stakeholders appropriately. It is very difficult for me to give the noble Baroness a timetable because there are technical issues to be looked at; indeed, we would want to examine the experience of Scotland. But we are clear that this is a measure that should be proceeded with.

On smoking in cars, I think my answer has to be: one step at a time. Questions of whether the Government would move forward with legislation or what the detail of the regulations would include are debates to be had at another time, once both Houses have expressed their will on the principle. It would be inappropriate for me to express firm views in advance of those discussions.

That leads me to the questions posed by the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Stoddart. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, asked about the definition of vehicles. The answer is that we have allowed ourselves the scope to define in regulations, should regulations be laid, what kinds of vehicles should be covered. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked me to confirm that the police could be involved in the enforcement of this offence should it be created. I can confirm that the wording of the amendment that we are tabling today allows that scope but, as I have indicated, we need to engage with the police and other stakeholders to determine exactly how this would work.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, posed the question that he has asked on a number of occasions as to why the Government do not simply make smoking itself illegal. My answer has to be that almost 20% of adults in England smoke and it would be difficult if not impossible to criminalise 7 million people at a stroke. We want above all to help current smokers to quit and to stop young people taking up smoking in the first place. We know that two-thirds of smokers want to quit but their addiction makes doing so very difficult. That is the approach we are taking.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

The Minister says that he does not want to criminalise 7 million people, or 20% of the population. But of course that has been done before, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro. The non-wearing of seat belts was made a criminal offence for between 25 million and 30 million people at the time that the legislation went through, which, incidentally, I supported. The excuse that there are too many people smoking who would be criminalised simply will not wash.

[Earl Howe]

I doubt that in the early 1980s we had a population that was addicted to not wearing seat belts.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I was in the House of Commons at that time, and I can assure the noble Earl that the number of complaints I had, from my own constituents and other people, about the compulsory wearing of seat belts was enormous. But I bravely resisted those complaints and spoke in favour of the then Government who brought the seat-belt legislation forward, and of course it was later extended to back-seat passengers as well.

[Earl Howe]

I am sure that noble Lords would love to continue this debate, and perhaps we could do so on another occasion. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, for reminding us of those debates.

We all agree, I am sure, that action we take now to stop young people taking up smoking will have a significant beneficial impact on public health in the long term, which was a point made by my noble friend Lord Ribeiro. It will help young people to live longer and healthier lives, and I say, “Hear, hear!” to that.