Education Bill

Baroness Howarth of Breckland Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, we seem to have hit an area where it would be helpful if we take this away, look at the detail of the arrangements and write to members of the Committee. The position at the moment appears to lack some clarity. We will write.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

When the Minister writes, will she tell us the principle behind this? Some of us are anxious that we are going to move towards a position where anyone can teach in any school without appropriate qualifications. We hope that is not the Government’s position and so look forward to that being clarified in the Minister’s reply.

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[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I shall speak briefly to this amendment and to this clause. I am motivated in large part by the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood. I wrestled with this subject as a Minister and came under a lot of pressure to bring in a clause such as Clause 13. My judgment at the time was that it would be a slippery slope—the slippery slope that has been described by the noble Lord—and that it would start to include an awful lot of people. The NSPCC put the argument very strongly that we should not go down the road in Clause 13 and that it would be better for children if we put pressure on the enforcement authorities to get on with it and bring cases to justice where there was a case to be put. I was pleased that we managed to get some agreement from the Association of Chief Police Officers to accelerate things. It will be interesting if the Minister has any information about whether that genuinely accelerated things or whether the Minister was just told that it accelerated things.

Probably that is where my instincts lie. A better way of dealing with things is that the police should not feed information to the press and that they should get on with prosecution if that is what needs to be done. Then the blight that can affect professionals in schools as a result of false allegations can be lifted very quickly because there is no doubt of the seriousness of the problem for some individuals.

However, if we are going to have Clause 13, I support the amendments put by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes. If you are going to give this protection to people who work in schools, you need to give this protection to all people who work in schools. These days, we see support staff, in particular, doing a range of work. In a lot of cases, it is support staff who are doing one-to-one work in schools, not the higher-qualified person, who is left to deal with the majority.

If there is a case to be made for teachers, there has to be a case made for support staff. The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, made a very strong case in respect of FE colleges, which are starting to educate under-16s. I suppose I am trying to be slightly consensual in saying that I understand and, in the end, kind of agree that I am sceptical about Clause 13 but, if we are going to do it, let us do it properly.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

I had hoped to support the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, but I am not sure whether he is going to speak now or later. I shall add to what the noble Lord, Lord Knight, said because I, too, believe that this is a question of process rather than of principle. I have talked to the Minister about this before. If we could get the issues dealt with quickly, then we would be able to avoid having to have this kind of clause. I speak as someone who has not only dealt with many victims of abuse—I want to come on to that issue in a moment—but has also supported members of the social work profession who have been faced by unproven, unsubstantiated and quite serious allegations. Having been a director in a child abuse case, I understand all the shock and pain that brings when it happens. It is the same sort of emotion that you feel about not being responsible for what you are being accused of. It is a terrible time for the individual and their family, but if we can get this process speeded up, that pain will be lessened, and we can get on with it.

I agree with the noble Lord who pointed out that we should not deal with the principle in a different way because we have a process problem. The principle must surely be that when an allegation has been made, it must be transparently investigated. I say this because not only have I dealt with people who have been falsely accused, but I have dealt with more young people than most people in this room who have been abused and who have had to face the process themselves. It is a terrible time for the young people when there are delays because they are faced with having to keep their evidence in their mind, they are going to be cross-examined in disciplinary proceedings and if it goes further than that, they are going to find themselves in court. That is another reason for the process to be speeded up.

However, I think the legislation as it stands at the moment is unworkable. I say this because, particularly if you have a situation where there is residential care alongside education—and I declare an interest as a patron of Livability which has a number of schools with both on the premises—what if you have two people accused at the same time? Will one of them find themselves free from publicity and the other one be thrown to the wolves and to the press? Unless the Government think that through, we will have a series of totally untenable situations. I think it is especially difficult in the present climate to talk about not having transparency in these situations when the Government are allowing the press into the family justice system. There are very strong feelings among families that find themselves and their situation in the press, albeit anonymously, when they find that the teacher who they think has harmed their child is protected. We have all sorts of muddled principles developing.

If this legislation is passed, it will weaken safeguarding. One of the things I know from many situations involving young people is that when one speaks out, it gives a voice to others. We know that an individual child’s voice in a court or in disciplinary proceedings is a very small voice. We know that when other young people come forward because one person has been brave enough to do so, you have much more hope of getting your case together. Even then, those of us who work with young people before the court as victims know that you are very unlikely to get a conviction without a great deal of effort and support. You have much more hope of doing so if you have a number of young people. To those people who say that groups of children come forward to make these allegations, research will tell you that there are very few situations where a group of children comes forward and they all tell exactly the same story that cannot be seen through. The lawyers among us will know that. If you talk to children and young people, as I have done, if they are making up a fairy story, you get it in one. If they tell you the story is the true story, then it follows through.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Knight, I am concerned because it is very difficult for people who are faced with these allegations, but the unforeseen consequences of not making them transparent are huge, and I think we should continue to make sure that our children’s needs are paramount, not the adult’s needs.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I normally find myself 100 per cent in agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland. However, picking up the last point that she made, I am comforted by the fact that the legislation makes it possible for the police to apply to a court for the restriction to be set aside if they feel that publicising the name of the accused person will enable them better to make their case by encouraging other abused children to come forward. I trust the wisdom of the court in that situation.

As regards school staff, my noble friend Lord Storey has just pointed out to me that certain highly-qualified teaching support staff are allowed to be fully in charge of a class without a teacher being present for up to two days, so they are in exactly the same position as teachers. All these issues make it all the more important that the Government consider our Amendment 75A, which asks them to have another look at this measure a couple of years after it has been introduced to ensure that it is not protecting abusers or allowing the names of innocent people who have had allegations made against them to be dragged through the dirt in the press. I am sure that that is sufficient time to enable the Government to make a sensible decision about whether the measure goes too far or does not go far enough.

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[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

The difficulty about the police applying to a court is that they will not know that there are other issues on which to move forward if other children do not come forward. That is the problem. Children come forward because they know that something is happening. The police consider that situation, and then they apply to the court. If they do not have that information, they will not apply.

[Lord Black of Brentwood]

My Lords, I wish to deal with an important point in this regard. My noble friend rightly says that the court has the power to lift a restriction on an application, but the legislation directs the court to have specific regard to the,

“welfare of the person who is the subject of the allegation”.

That is a very dangerous measure. My noble friend Lord Phillips will be moving amendments on this matter in the next group, but it is not as straightforward as just going to the court, as the court could already have a predetermined view.

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I understand the arguments for extending the protections provided by Clause 13 but I also accept the arguments that have been made that we should proceed with care and limit the circumstances in which these restrictions might apply. It seems to me that we should keep the effect under review and be prepared in due course to revisit it once we have further evidence. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, will agree that we should proceed with this measure, although we should do so with caution. On the basis of that, I ask her to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

I am really sorry, but can I gently express my incredulity that we can say that teachers are in a different position from, say, care staff? Those care staff find themselves in a parental role with all the discipline and, often, the actual physical contact which that involves from all the aggro that you get when you are dealing with adolescents in the parental role—adolescents who have often failed to be contained in their own family. Are they in a less vulnerable position than teachers? I do not particularly want to extend this but I cannot see the logic at all of saying that this is a special position for teachers, because they are responsible for discipline in schools, when you have care staff in residential establishments— some of them very large residential schools—who in fact find themselves with even greater contact. I would like the Minister to look at that. I still do not understand how a teacher who may be in a residential institution and a care member of staff might both be accused of the same offence, yet one can be protected and the other cannot. I do not necessarily want the Minister to answer at this moment but I would really like him to take this away because it will make his legislation unworkable.

[Lord Elton]

Without going into the broader field just raised, would my noble friend perhaps look within the school confines, which is what he is addressing here? It seems to me that classroom support staff, who may spend two days at a time in sole charge of a class, are in a position so analogous to that of teachers that they could perhaps be separated from the remainder of the staff for the purposes of this legislation. I realise that, as they more rarely have sole responsibility for the children, they are less at risk but it seems that the risk, although less, is just as real and the damage could be just as great.

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Therefore, all those cases would be caught, and evidence suppressed, because a teacher might be identified. That would make a mockery of open justice and invite charges of cover-ups. I do not believe that is what the Government intend. These amendments are vital if we are not to usher in an age of secrecy where the cards are stacked heavily in favour of the teacher and against the child. I urge the Minister to take these amendments away and consider whether they can be incorporated in the legislation.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I shall speak extremely briefly as the noble Lord, Lord Black, has made a number of the points that I was going to make. I wish to make three points. First, given the debate that took place in the Commons, I seek reassurance that parents and children who share information between themselves will not fall foul of the provision regarding publication. That provision has dangers attached to it but also strengths because, if this legislation is passed, they will be able to share information and ascertain whether other children have been involved. That is crucial.

Secondly, I suspect that the Minister may say that as regards new Section 141F(5) and the protection of the person who is the subject of the allegation, the children concerned may be covered by the “interests of justice” provision. However, that needs to be made explicit because it will not be understood that the children are protected in the interests of justice when the Bill makes special mention of,

“the person who is the subject of the allegation”.

That is a serious flaw and goes against all the legislation put on the statute book from the Children Act 1989, which was introduced by the Conservatives and made children’s rights paramount, right through to the subsequent legislation introduced by the previous Government.

Thirdly, even if parents wanted to go to court, the present state of legal aid means that they would have no support through the legal aid system to enable them to put their case. Therefore, they are even less likely to do so than might have been the case previously, difficult as such a process is. I support the sensible amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, and the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Black.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend the Minister accepts that my noble friends are trying to help the Government produce a good piece of legislation and that he will consider the very thoughtful case made by my noble friend Lord Phillips. In an earlier debate, I said that I was somewhat comforted by the possibility that the police would be able to apply to the court for the restriction to be lifted. However, I take the point that my noble friend Lord Phillips and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, have made that the last few words of new Section 141F(5) skew the position of the court in the direction of the alleged perpetrator and not of the child. Personally, I think it would be a very good idea to take that out.

I am also very convinced by my noble friend's argument about inserting his proposed new paragraph (b)—in Amendment 73HH—into subsection (10) of proposed new Section 141F, so that the restriction could be lifted once the person has resigned or been sacked. I have had a great deal of evidence sent to me by campaigners against child abuse particularly, it has to be said, in relation to independent boarding schools, where of course the opportunities are greater. Very often, however, what my noble friend said is absolutely right: it does happen that it is in the school’s interest to sweep it under the carpet and quietly say, “You go away and resign and we will say no more about it”, because these schools are financial organisations and they will lose money if things get about that dreadful things have happened there.

We really have to be very careful if we are to pass legislation that might encourage that situation or protect those people because I am told that what happens is, yes, they go away from that school but they pop up somewhere else and carry on. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister is most concerned about safeguarding children and, secondly, concerned about innocent teachers who might have allegations maliciously made against them. We somehow have to find the right balance between those two things.

I would say one more thing about what the noble Lord, Lord Black, said. The Human Rights Act asks us to draw a balance between the rights of free speech and the right to privacy of the individual. We have to bear in mind that it is not all in the direction of free speech. The Act talks about the rights to privacy for the individual as well and there, again, we have to create the correct balance.