Education Bill

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

I had hoped to support the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, but I am not sure whether he is going to speak now or later. I shall add to what the noble Lord, Lord Knight, said because I, too, believe that this is a question of process rather than of principle. I have talked to the Minister about this before. If we could get the issues dealt with quickly, then we would be able to avoid having to have this kind of clause. I speak as someone who has not only dealt with many victims of abuse—I want to come on to that issue in a moment—but has also supported members of the social work profession who have been faced by unproven, unsubstantiated and quite serious allegations. Having been a director in a child abuse case, I understand all the shock and pain that brings when it happens. It is the same sort of emotion that you feel about not being responsible for what you are being accused of. It is a terrible time for the individual and their family, but if we can get this process speeded up, that pain will be lessened, and we can get on with it.

I agree with the noble Lord who pointed out that we should not deal with the principle in a different way because we have a process problem. The principle must surely be that when an allegation has been made, it must be transparently investigated. I say this because not only have I dealt with people who have been falsely accused, but I have dealt with more young people than most people in this room who have been abused and who have had to face the process themselves. It is a terrible time for the young people when there are delays because they are faced with having to keep their evidence in their mind, they are going to be cross-examined in disciplinary proceedings and if it goes further than that, they are going to find themselves in court. That is another reason for the process to be speeded up.

However, I think the legislation as it stands at the moment is unworkable. I say this because, particularly if you have a situation where there is residential care alongside education—and I declare an interest as a patron of Livability which has a number of schools with both on the premises—what if you have two people accused at the same time? Will one of them find themselves free from publicity and the other one be thrown to the wolves and to the press? Unless the Government think that through, we will have a series of totally untenable situations. I think it is especially difficult in the present climate to talk about not having transparency in these situations when the Government are allowing the press into the family justice system. There are very strong feelings among families that find themselves and their situation in the press, albeit anonymously, when they find that the teacher who they think has harmed their child is protected. We have all sorts of muddled principles developing.

If this legislation is passed, it will weaken safeguarding. One of the things I know from many situations involving young people is that when one speaks out, it gives a voice to others. We know that an individual child’s voice in a court or in disciplinary proceedings is a very small voice. We know that when other young people come forward because one person has been brave enough to do so, you have much more hope of getting your case together. Even then, those of us who work with young people before the court as victims know that you are very unlikely to get a conviction without a great deal of effort and support. You have much more hope of doing so if you have a number of young people. To those people who say that groups of children come forward to make these allegations, research will tell you that there are very few situations where a group of children comes forward and they all tell exactly the same story that cannot be seen through. The lawyers among us will know that. If you talk to children and young people, as I have done, if they are making up a fairy story, you get it in one. If they tell you the story is the true story, then it follows through.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Knight, I am concerned because it is very difficult for people who are faced with these allegations, but the unforeseen consequences of not making them transparent are huge, and I think we should continue to make sure that our children’s needs are paramount, not the adult’s needs.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I normally find myself 100 per cent in agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland. However, picking up the last point that she made, I am comforted by the fact that the legislation makes it possible for the police to apply to a court for the restriction to be set aside if they feel that publicising the name of the accused person will enable them better to make their case by encouraging other abused children to come forward. I trust the wisdom of the court in that situation.

As regards school staff, my noble friend Lord Storey has just pointed out to me that certain highly-qualified teaching support staff are allowed to be fully in charge of a class without a teacher being present for up to two days, so they are in exactly the same position as teachers. All these issues make it all the more important that the Government consider our Amendment 75A, which asks them to have another look at this measure a couple of years after it has been introduced to ensure that it is not protecting abusers or allowing the names of innocent people who have had allegations made against them to be dragged through the dirt in the press. I am sure that that is sufficient time to enable the Government to make a sensible decision about whether the measure goes too far or does not go far enough.

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[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I was going to keep my powder dry until the next group of amendments. However, I have a problem with Amendment 75A in that it seems to me to involve a one-way inquiry. If it were a case of the Secretary of State having to report to the Houses of Parliament on reporting restrictions, whether they be good or bad, effective or ineffective, I would be wholly behind it. However, it is a one-way ratchet; the Secretary of State can report only on whether to extend the restrictions.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I would be only too happy if the Minister were to say exactly that.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Thank you.

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[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I shall speak extremely briefly as the noble Lord, Lord Black, has made a number of the points that I was going to make. I wish to make three points. First, given the debate that took place in the Commons, I seek reassurance that parents and children who share information between themselves will not fall foul of the provision regarding publication. That provision has dangers attached to it but also strengths because, if this legislation is passed, they will be able to share information and ascertain whether other children have been involved. That is crucial.

Secondly, I suspect that the Minister may say that as regards new Section 141F(5) and the protection of the person who is the subject of the allegation, the children concerned may be covered by the “interests of justice” provision. However, that needs to be made explicit because it will not be understood that the children are protected in the interests of justice when the Bill makes special mention of,

“the person who is the subject of the allegation”.

That is a serious flaw and goes against all the legislation put on the statute book from the Children Act 1989, which was introduced by the Conservatives and made children’s rights paramount, right through to the subsequent legislation introduced by the previous Government.

Thirdly, even if parents wanted to go to court, the present state of legal aid means that they would have no support through the legal aid system to enable them to put their case. Therefore, they are even less likely to do so than might have been the case previously, difficult as such a process is. I support the sensible amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, and the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Black.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend the Minister accepts that my noble friends are trying to help the Government produce a good piece of legislation and that he will consider the very thoughtful case made by my noble friend Lord Phillips. In an earlier debate, I said that I was somewhat comforted by the possibility that the police would be able to apply to the court for the restriction to be lifted. However, I take the point that my noble friend Lord Phillips and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, have made that the last few words of new Section 141F(5) skew the position of the court in the direction of the alleged perpetrator and not of the child. Personally, I think it would be a very good idea to take that out.

I am also very convinced by my noble friend's argument about inserting his proposed new paragraph (b)—in Amendment 73HH—into subsection (10) of proposed new Section 141F, so that the restriction could be lifted once the person has resigned or been sacked. I have had a great deal of evidence sent to me by campaigners against child abuse particularly, it has to be said, in relation to independent boarding schools, where of course the opportunities are greater. Very often, however, what my noble friend said is absolutely right: it does happen that it is in the school’s interest to sweep it under the carpet and quietly say, “You go away and resign and we will say no more about it”, because these schools are financial organisations and they will lose money if things get about that dreadful things have happened there.

We really have to be very careful if we are to pass legislation that might encourage that situation or protect those people because I am told that what happens is, yes, they go away from that school but they pop up somewhere else and carry on. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister is most concerned about safeguarding children and, secondly, concerned about innocent teachers who might have allegations maliciously made against them. We somehow have to find the right balance between those two things.

I would say one more thing about what the noble Lord, Lord Black, said. The Human Rights Act asks us to draw a balance between the rights of free speech and the right to privacy of the individual. We have to bear in mind that it is not all in the direction of free speech. The Act talks about the rights to privacy for the individual as well and there, again, we have to create the correct balance.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, when I spoke a little earlier, I was trying to say that I was sad that the two groupings had not been moulded together because it was very important to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, had to say before the Minister has the duty to reply. He now has that advantage but I was also impressed by what the noble Lord, Lord Knight, said previously about his own experience of looking at a similar approach to that which the Government are thinking about. In the end, for a number of reasons, they did not go down that path.

We have heard today of the disadvantage that it would be to some groups, if not to others, to say nothing of this sort of behaviour spreading around the country without anyone knowing what would happen if allegations are true and proved. I am afraid that we have had too many instances in the past of things coming to light much later on. We also know the damage that has been done to so many young people as they grow up. I very much look forward to what the Minister has to say because I hope that Members, obviously not just in this House but in the other House, will read carefully what has been said during this debate because it should have considerable influence, along with what the Minister will say to his colleagues in the other place.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I will have a go, and if I need to follow up subsequently, I will. We have made it clear that an offence is committed not only when somebody publishes an article or broadcasts a programme in the traditional media, but when somebody posts an allegation on the internet, even anonymously. I recognise, as the noble Lord pointed out, some of the practical challenges posed by investigating the source of allegations on the internet, with which we are all familiar: but that is the intent. It will not affect private conversations, including via e-mail or text. However, where such communications constitute a publication—this is the definition in the clause, which I am sure we can have some fun with—by being addressed to the public at large, or to any section of the public, we propose that reporting restrictions will apply.

[Baroness Walmsley]

Will a private letter from the parent of one child to the parent of another child in the class be regarded as a publication, or will that be private?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That would be private.