Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Thursday 7th April 2022 Lords Chamber

I thank the Minister and his officers for their time and briefings during the passage of the Bill, which was at times somewhat choppy. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for her work on the Bill; it has been a pleasure to work with her to ensure its passage. We have now reached the stage where the Bill can move to Royal Assent, and those of us who care about the plight of animals can be assured that the end of the current Session is not the end of this vital Bill—and I apologise for the interruption from my phone.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be brief. I thank the Minister for his clear introduction to the amendments that have come forward from the Commons and for his explanation of the Government’s acceptance and the changes to the Bill.

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, will not be at all surprised when I say that I completely disagreed with absolutely everything he said. I think the debates we had in Committee and at Third Reading will have shown him exactly where I stand on the Bill and my support for animal welfare.

On these Benches, we very much welcome the Bill, which we believe will be important. It may not be perfect, but we will be very pleased to see it on the statute book. We are also very pleased that the Government earlier accepted the amendment to include decapod crustaceans and cephalopods; we believe that is an important addition to animal welfare sentience. I thank the Minister in particular for all his hard work on that particular area of the Bill.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, for her support on the Bill. We have done important cross-Bench work to get to this stage. I am fully aware that not all noble Lords agreed with us, particularly on the Benches opposite, but we have got the Bill to the place where we think it needs to be and it is good to see that it will move forward and provide more protection for animals in the future.

On the further government promises on animal welfare that we have yet to see, does the Minister have any kind of update on the situation is with the animals abroad Bill, which seems to have hit the buffers? Obviously, we are very pleased that the kept animals Bill has a carry-over Motion but it would be useful if he had any further information on that.

Finally, I give the Minister my very warm congratulations on becoming a grandfather, if that is true—will he confirm it?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Not yet.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

When it is true, it is absolutely delightful to be a grandparent—I highly recommend it to all noble Lords.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am very grateful to noble Lords for their somewhat premature congratulations. I am waiting for a call on that particular matter—which is not a matter of state.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to today’s debate, which are very much in keeping with the very interesting and at times enthralling conversations we have had during the progress of the Bill. I had not expected to be standing here talking about it again but the Commons have made the right call, and I am glad that most noble Lords think that we have made the right call in accepting their amendments.

I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Trees, whose wisdom and understanding on this and other issues are of enormous value to me and to the department. I hope to continue to have discussions on this and other issues. He raised some important points. As he knows, the Bill is about the government policy-making process. It does not change existing law or impose any new restrictions on individuals or businesses. The Government would prefer all animals to be stunned before slaughter, but we respect the rights of Muslims and Jews to eat meat prepared in accordance with their religious beliefs. Strict rules are already in place which govern these slaughter methods. Official vets from the Food Standards Agency are present in approved slaughterhouses to monitor and enforce animal welfare requirements.

The noble Lord raised an important additional point about medical research. The use of animals in scientific research remains a vital tool in improving our understanding of how biological systems work in both health and disease. Such use is crucial for the development of new medicines and cutting-edge medical technologies. Central to any decision to use animals in research is the need for robust scientific evidence to justify the use of animals. As the noble Lord is well aware, the use of animals in science is regulated by the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act, which is implemented by the Home Office. His concerns are noted and have been passed on to my colleagues in the Home Office.

I am also extremely grateful to other noble Lords who spoke in this debate. My noble friend Lady McIntosh is right to make sure that what we are talking about is shared with our devolved colleagues. As was apparent during the progress of the Bill, Scotland already has a similar committee and others are either being formed or talked about. We regularly discuss this with our devolved colleagues to make sure that we are learning from the best from them, and they, I hope, are learning from us.

My noble friend is right to raise the issue of farmers. It is important for us to say that the vast majority of farmers are invested in the care of their animals. It makes economic sense for them, but they feel this personally, and the vast majority of farmers, who look after their animals to the highest standards of animal welfare, are wounded by those who do not. They want everyone to know that they are doing their best to care for their animals and for them to have the highest welfare standards of anywhere on this planet.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, contributed at many stages of the Bill and I thank her for it. I too share her wish that this will be an effective piece of legislation. Ministers will have at their call the best evidence they need to make the right decisions across government, not just in Defra. I hope that she will continue to take an interest in thism and I am sure that she will inform me if she thinks that we are in any way not being effective.

I very much enjoyed the discussions I had with my noble friend Lord Moylan. We delved into realms of philosophy at times, which is always fun, if testing on the Hansard scribes. My noble friend had a different opinion to me about the importance of the Bill, and I understand his concerns and those of my noble friends Lord Herbert, Lord Bellingham and others on our Benches. However, after the processes we went through, the Bill is better for their challenge. As a relative newcomer to the House, I recognise the value of being challenged and trying to make sure that we are doing the best we can.

My great thanks go to the two Front-Bench spokesmen from the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Lady Hayman of Ullock. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, raised a point about the other amendment, and she is absolutely right. Amendment 2 and the text it removes are both procedural formalities, but we must recognise that money-raising powers should remain in the other place.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked me about the animals abroad Bill. She would seem to have the better of me with knowledge that there is some possibility that it should not happen. That quite possibly means she is better informed than me because, as far as I am concerned, we can expect to see it—in the words that irritate most people on all Benches of this House—in the relatively near future.

I also thank my noble friend Lady Bloomfield, who has been an enormous support to me in taking this Bill through, and the Bill team, Katherine Yeşilirmak, Kalyani Franklin, Jack Darrant, Tess Hanneman, Hannah Edwins, Phoebe Harris and, from my private office, Lucy Skelton and Adam Diep.

This Bill provides recognition of animal sentience in UK law and will see Ministers held to account on considering the animal welfare implications of their decisions. These are both outcomes for which there is overwhelming public support. I look forward to seeing this Bill become law. I beg to move.

Water Companies: Duties and Accountability

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Lord will be pleased, therefore, with the fine of £100 million or thereabouts that Southern Water has recently received, which was paid back to customers in exactly the way he suggests.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister referred earlier to the strategic policy statement that was laid before Parliament back in February, in which the Government urged Ofwat to challenge water companies on how to be more ambitious in protecting the environment and deliver the resilient and sustainable water supply we need. He also mentioned investment, so can he explain why there is no direct guidance on the investment gaps in our failing and ageing infrastructure and how this will be addressed through the price review?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

In the existing price review there is a considerable uplift in investment in water infrastructure. Going forward, through the strategic policy statement and other measures we are imposing, we want to see a dramatic change in the way in which water companies operate, which has allowed a large number of storm overflows to go into our rivers. We all find that reprehensible and we want it stopped.

Glue Traps (Offences) Bill

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 25th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, for her excellent and thorough introduction to the Bill, which answered a number of questions that I had, having read it. As the noble Lord, Lord Randall, and others have said, she has a fearsome reputation as a champion of better animal welfare, and I am so pleased that she has introduced to the House this important Bill, which we will support from these Benches. I also pay tribute to Jane Stevenson MP for steering it through the other place—and to the RSPCA, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and HSI, for all their campaigning on this issue.

We have heard many reasons why glue traps should be banned: they are inhumane and cause absolutely unacceptable and unnecessary suffering. If animals are caught on them, they suffer often horrific injuries and a slow and painful death from starvation, dehydration, suffocation and exhaustion—it really is horrible. Even worse, they are known to break and dislocate their limbs, tear off fur and skin and even attempt to gnaw off their limbs. It is really appalling that these traps are still available in this country.

So we know that trapped animals will experience prolonged and unnecessary suffering, and we have also heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, that the traps are considered to be inhumane by the British Veterinary Association. She mentioned that this was also endorsed by the noble Lord, Lord Trees. A University of Oxford study has found that capture on a glue trap has an extreme impact on animal welfare, lasting many hours, and that they scored worst, on the overall welfare impact of non-lethal components, out of all rat control methods that were examined.

As other noble Lords—the noble Baronesses, Lady Fookes and Lady Bakewell—said, it has been reported that protected species, birds, bats, wild mammals, hedgehogs, foxes and even pet cats and kittens have been caught by these traps. One thing that was very helpful for me was the explanation and clarification from the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, of why only rodents are mentioned in the Bill. I was concerned about that, but she answered that question very thoroughly in her introduction.

We know that birds have been trapped in many instances, despite it being an offence to install glue boards in a place where wild birds could be captured. So it is still happening, even though we have had legal assurances that it should not be. The England and Wales Animal Welfare Act makes it clear that animals caught on or in traps are protected under the Act. Therefore, failing to deal with trapped animals humanely is an offence. However, in practice, members of the public are not aware of their responsibility to deal with a captured animal and are either unwilling or unable to dispatch animals that are caught in a humane manner.

One of the concerns is the fact that the vast majority of high-street manufacturers do not include any specific information on the packaging or any instructions for the user. So I support the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, on the fact that, actually, we should be looking at the sale of these traps, as well as a ban on their use. In 2015, HSI did a poll that found that over half of respondents said that they did not know what to do with a trapped animal when they found one. Most of them suggested something that was actually an offence under law.

Another issue that has been discussed is the use by so-called professional operators who often do not behave professionally at all. It is really important that, when we look at the licensing section of this Bill, the exceptional circumstances are genuinely exceptional. The situation that Clause 2(2) in the Bill describes is tightly worded so that the Secretary of State may provide licences only under exceptional circumstances. I am interested to hear more from the Minister about what they might be, beyond those which have already been mentioned.

We have heard that glue traps have been banned or restricted in many other countries, and that a UK ban has very strong public support. We really need to catch up. I agree with other noble Lords who have already spoken that two years seems to be a long time. If it possible to bring this forward, I hope that the Minister will be able to talk to his department about how this might be achieved. We have also heard how New Zealand has banned the sale and use of glue traps since 2015. I understand that, in 2022, there were only two approvals there, for use and sale respectively, so that suggests that there are adequate alternatives that can be deployed successfully, if necessary, to manage rodents. Again, I think that these exceptional circumstances should be very, very exceptional.

In conclusion, I am pleased to see that we have legislation on banning glue traps. It is an important step forward in animal welfare, and I am absolutely delighted that the Government are supporting this Bill.

Hunting Trophies

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Government are bringing in a range of animal welfare measures. We have a proud tradition in this country across parties of having concern for animal welfare. There is a long list of measures that the Government can take, have taken and will take. When the animals abroad Bill is published, everything in it has to be seen in relation to a much wider determination to protect animal welfare.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, further to the questions from noble Lords around what has been in the press, if bans on foie gras and fur imports are to be dropped from the animals abroad Bill, can the Minister confirm whether the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, is being sidelined by the Government and his department? He has previously stated that the Government would legislate to ban fur imports at the earliest available slot. There seems to be general back-tracking on animal welfare promises from this Government, so can the Minister assure us that the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, has the full support of the Prime Minister and the Treasury on these matters?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I can assure the noble Baroness that my colleague and noble friend Lord Goldsmith has the full confidence of the Prime Minister and is very active on these issues. He would be answering this Question if he was available.

Bird Control Licences

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the GL42 general licence to kill or take certain species of wild birds to prevent serious damage, updated on 1 January, what assessment they have made of the numbers of wild birds that will be killed annually to protect game bird interests.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests as set out in the register. An assessment such as the noble Baroness describes is not required, as control of wild birds under GL42 has already been assessed to carry a low risk to the conservation status of those wild birds.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister may have seen coverage over the weekend of Nottingham magistrates’ court sentencing a gamekeeper for bludgeoning two buzzards to death inside a cage trap. The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime has recently highlighted the systemic problem of raptor persecution in the UK in a report that included more than 70 recommendations to improve action on wildlife crime. How do the Government intend to take forward the recommendations of this report, especially its recommendations on licensing gamebird shoots, with the buzzard case as a very recent example on what happens when there is no real accountability in the shooting industry?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

There are very strict sanctions against wildlife criminals in this country: unlimited fines and up to six-month custodial sentences can be awarded where people commit these hideous acts. They represent a very small proportion of a sector that does enormous good for conservation and wider natural wildlife benefits in this country.

Water Industry Reform

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

This Government and the regulator are absolutely determined to see an improvement to the situation of sewage being released into rivers. Part of that problem is releases of sewage from water companies, part of it is from farming and part of it is from point-source pollution. It requires a holistic approach. I refer the noble Lord to the statutory policy statement, which has been released in draft and will be laid before Parliament in the next few weeks. It will give him the assurance I think he requires.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, there also needs to be proper enforcement regarding water quality. The Environment Agency has seen its funding cut by 60% in recent years, reducing its capacity to carry out monitoring and enforcement activity. Prosecutions for environmental crime in England plummeted by 86% between 2000 and 2019 and the number of charges also fell by 84%. Does the Minister recognise that, if the Government truly are serious about tackling pollution in our rivers, they must fund the Environment Agency properly so that it can do the job it was set up to do?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Defra and its agencies received an extra £4.3 billion in the latest spending review in October 2021. We have made extra budget available to the Environment Agency for 50 extra inspectors to be recruited in this financial year to visit farms and other sources of water pollution to ensure that action is taken.

Environmental Land Management Schemes

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister knows, financial support for improving public access to the countryside is a key commitment of the new regime in the Agriculture Act. I would be interested to hear his response to the many rambling and walking groups that are expressing anger and frustration at the moment that the department is not prioritising access to the countryside.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I was disappointed by the response of the Ramblers Association, an organisation for which I have a great regard. As set out in a Written Ministerial Statement of 2 December:

“We will also continue to pay for heritage, access and engagement through our existing schemes and we will consider how to maintain investment in these areas as part of future schemes.”—[Official Report, Commons, 2/12/21; col. 437WS.]


What we were talking about was the sustainable farming incentive, which is only one of three schemes. Of course, there are many other examples, such as the £500 million nature for climate fund and the £124 million announced for the net-zero community forests. I could go on, but I would incur the wrath of the House if I did.

Wine (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his time and that of his officials in the briefing, as well as for his introduction to this relatively straightforward instrument.

The Explanatory Memorandum gives clear detail. Paragraph 7.3 refers to wine that has been stored and appreciated in value, and is then marketed later when it may not have the requisite information details that we are introducing in this IS; the Minister referred to this. Ensuring that this does not happen is referred to, in the last sentence of paragraph 7.3,

“by amending the Wine Regulations 2011 (S.I. 2011/2936) and the Food Information Regulations 2014 (S.I. 2014/1855).”

The Minister referred to those statutory instruments. However, there is no indication of when this might happen. Can he say whether a date has been given for that action?

Paragraph 7.8 gives details of the trade in wine with Northern Ireland and the effect of the Northern Ireland protocol on the wine industry. It makes the claim that, although the instrument

“will be looked at again once those negotiations have been concluded”,

there will be no

“significant effect on the trade in wine between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.”

Is the Minister sure that there will be no significant effect? The wording of the EM implies that there will be an effect but it will not be significant. I know that this is straining at gnats, but it would be helpful to have clarification.

Consultation with the industry, including the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, WineGB, the Food Standards Agency and Food Standards Scotland, has taken place. Not surprisingly, since the VI-1 wine import certificates are to be abandoned and the process simplified, there was general satisfaction in the process to be instituted and followed. It will reduce costs, which is good for business.

However, I am somewhat concerned that the consequent reduction in the price of wine could lead to harm from increased alcoholism, especially among young people, due to it being cheaper. Although a glass of wine is an enjoyable thing for most adults, the cheaper it is for those on low incomes, the more likely it is to be tempting to consume more than is healthy. Addictions of all type are a strain on the health service, and alcohol addiction can lead to anti-social behaviour and violence. I am not suggesting for one minute that the reduction in the price of wine will lead to wholesale disorder on the streets, but it is a consideration for young people.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has produced information paragraphs on this SI, having consulted Defra. There is a transition period, to which the Minister referred, of two years for producers and wholesalers of wine, and until stocks have been exhausted for retailers. Can the Minister say whether an estimate has been made of how long it might be before stocks of wine imported under the TCA before the lot codes came in might be exhausted? Is it likely to be sooner than two years, or might stocks be left at the end of the two years? If so, what arrangements will be made to ensure that these wines can still be marketed although they will not have the lot codes in place?

Lastly—I am sorry but this is a bee in my bonnet— I note that no impact assessment was produced. It is clear from the EM that there are likely to be impacts; it would have been helpful for these to be gathered together in one place. Apart from these minor comments, I am satisfied with this SI. I can see that it will be very good for business and will improve the movement of wine between GB and the EU, so I support it.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, begin by thanking the Minister and his officials for taking the time to meet me and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, to go through these amending regulations in advance. It was very helpful. I also thank him for clearly explaining the purpose of the detailed statutory instrument that we are looking at. As he explained, these regulations will ensure that the United Kingdom meets its legal obligations to implement the provisions in Annexe 15 to the trade and co-operation agreement, which deals with the trade in, and of, wine. Specifically, they will amend rules concerning lot marking and the import and export certification arrangements for wine products, as well as putting in place the transitional marketing arrangements, which are important.

However, I will concentrate on the removal of VI-1 certificates. As we have heard, the instrument proposes changes to ensure that wines from the EU and other third countries imported into GB will not require a certificate and analysis report any more. Defra has said that VI-1 certificates

“serve no purpose to business or the consumer, and simply add unnecessary costs to the trade in wine.”

After considering options for the future of wine certification, the Government announced on 25 July their intention to remove the requirement for VI-1 certificates on all imported wine into Great Britain, as the statutory instrument before us is intended to do. We have heard that this measure is also likely to reduce costs for our wine importers while increasing the global attractiveness and competitiveness of the UK as a hub for the wine trade. We understand that this change has been much welcomed by the wine industry, which estimates that it will save it around £100 million every year, so we also support this statutory instrument and welcome the changes it brings in.

We would also like to acknowledge the work of the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, mentioned by the Minister, in pressing the Government to alter their previous position. Noble Lords may remember that that was initially just to roll over the European Union rules and regulations on wine imports. It is very welcome that the Government have listened to the industry and brought in these changes.

Leaving the EU made a significant difference because the EU’s rationale for bringing in an import document—effectively, a technical barrier to trade—was, in reality, to protect its own wine industry. Whatever our views on our departure from the European Union, for us, as a net importer of wine, it made little sense to maintain the rules designed to disadvantage our imports. While I pay tribute to the UK’s many excellent wine producers, we import more than 99% of the wine that we consume in this country, and around half of those imports are from the EU.

Again, it is good that, following industry engagement, the UK Government initially introduced a much-welcomed grace period for VI-1 forms for all wine imported from EU countries, meaning that the forms have never actually been required for EU wine imported into the UK. That is why we now support the Government’s intention to remove this documentation from 1 January next year.

Having said all that, we have a few questions and concerns that I want to draw to the Minister’s attention. First, there is the impact on Northern Ireland, as raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. As we heard, the SI does not extend to Northern Ireland, given the operation of the Northern Ireland protocol and the ongoing UK-EU negotiations on it. Paragraph 7.8 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which the noble Baroness mentioned, says that relevant provisions will be brought forward

“once those negotiations have been concluded.”

Does this mean that the Government have no intention to trigger Article 16? If that is the case, why have the Government given the impression that they might actually do so?

The Explanatory Memorandum continues:

“In the meantime, we do not anticipate this will have any significant effect”—


as the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, stressed—

“on trade in wine between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.”

To me, this is all a bit unsatisfactory and unlikely. Can the Minister tell us how that conclusion was reached? What discussions took place with the Northern Ireland Executive before that conclusion was reached? What engagement was there with colleagues in the Irish Government in Dublin? As the noble Baroness said when talking about the implications for Northern Ireland, clarification in this area would be extremely helpful.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 13th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Herbert of South Downs. I fear I do not agree that this Bill was a waste of parliamentary time. A large number of Bills are coming forward during the pandemic that are not health related, but it is important that legislation moves forward and does not get bogged down in Covid. Similarly, I listened to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, who, unfortunately, was not able to be here at the beginning of the debate. I live in a rural community and support the rural way of life, and I do not feel the Bill threatens either the ethos or the practical way of life in rural communities. This is overstated.

I congratulate the Minister on his remarks and on eventually getting this very short but important Bill to the point of being able to pass it on to the other place. I did not envisage at the start of the process that it would be so controversial in some quarters of the Government Benches, who, in their own words, have attempted to paralyse the House with boredom.

I thank the Minister for his time and that of his officials in providing briefings along the way, and for his patience in dealing with the many amendments and queries that came forward. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for her time and assistance in helping to steer the Bill forward. It is always better when Front Benches are united in moving a Bill forward.

The amendments that have been accepted have improved the Bill. It will be interesting to see how the Bill is received in the other place and whether it will make any further amendments. No doubt it will be heavily lobbied by the spokespeople this afternoon. I support the thrust of the Bill and look forward to working with the Minister on future legislation.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, on these Benches we have listened to the speeches from the noble Lord, Lord Herbert of South Downs, and other noble Lords, but we cannot support the amendment. I am sure noble Lords are not surprised to hear that. I will not go into any details. At Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, we discussed in depth and at length exactly the same issues as we have today, and I am fairly confident that any noble Lord present at any of those debates understands fully my feelings on these issues.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part one
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Moylan for that remark.

I am going to go on and query the path the Government have gone down and why aspects of the committee may be subject to judicial review in connection with this Bill, whereas every other Bill that has been put forward by this Government has not been deemed to be subject to such a judicial review. If the Minister will reassure me that there will be no retrospective effect and that we will revert, if possible, to the very limited effect of Article 13, I think it would have the unanimous support of the House today.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, these amendments broadly consider the remit of the committee regarding policy. Clause 1 sets up the committee. The stated purpose of the Bill is to make sure that animal sentience is taken into account when developing policy across government, but policy is not always set in aspic and I find it concerning that the majority of the amendments that have been put down in this group would prohibit the ASC considering policy formulated and implemented before the committee’s formation.

At the start of his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Trees, talked about unintended consequences, but we should also look at the unintended consequences of this group of amendments if they are accepted. We believe that the prohibitions that are being put forward would prevent the committee considering how the ongoing implementation of recent and historic legislation affects the welfare of animals as sentient beings. The impacts can be significant. To take an example, the primary legislation used to prosecute hare coursing is the Hunting Act 2004 and the Game Act 1831. We believe that the ASC should be free to consider how the implementation of those laws affect the welfare of hares as sentient beings. While the ASC will be likely to focus its work on emerging policy, we believe it needs the freedom to consider existing legislation where it feels it is appropriate to do so.

Amendment 18, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, would require scientific evidence to be published. It is very important that scientific evidence is taken into account right across the committee. It is clear from the terms of reference that that will be an important part of its work. But again I have concerns: requiring things to always be published before being presented to Parliament could place an unintended scientific barrier in front of the committee. I worked in publishing for many years, and I know that sometimes it can take a long time. I would not want to see the committee’s work hugely delayed as an unintended consequence of this amendment.

I will keep my comments brief throughout Report. We discussed at length in Committee many of the amendments before us again today. I do not want to waste time going back over issues that we have already spent a lot of time on, but I would be interested to hear the Minister’s response to people’s concerns.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and my noble friends Lord Howard and Lord Caithness, for their amendments on the subject of the animal sentience committee’s remit with respect to existing policies. My remarks will address all the amendments.

This is the first piece of legislation I have steered through the House. I am conscious that I am in the presence of experienced legislators and people very much more experienced, perhaps, that I was in the other place where, when a piece of legislation was described as “terrible” or “poorly drafted” it was usually code for the fact that the speaker did not agree with it. Here, I am sure that that is not the case and that noble Lords are much more discerning, and I will seek to answer their points, be more conciliatory in my remarks and address their concerns.

I thank noble Lords for their discussion on this issue, and for the opportunity to put on record a clear statement on the remit of the committee. The Bill is already drafted so as to ensure that animal sentience is actively considered in current policy-making and implementation and, in line with its statutory function as set out in the Bill, the committee will be expected to prioritise current or recent policy decisions. Prioritising policies that the Government are currently pursuing fulfils the committee’s statutory function under Clause 3. This clause requires the Secretary of State to respond to the committee’s reports and is the only legal consequence the committee reports have. As I have repeatedly stated, the purpose of the Bill is to provide a proportionate, targeted and timely accountability mechanism. There are limits to how far you can hold a current Government to account for the decisions they did not make, and this would certainly not be timely. I hope this addresses points made by my noble friends Lord Moylan, Lady McIntosh and others.

However, the value of the committee is in looking at policy issues that are live in some way, and the committee would not be acting in the public interest if it did not do that. There would be no benefit for animal welfare, for the public, for Parliament or for the Government in discussing policies that have long been customary, revised or resolved. To put it more simply, the committee would not be doing its job properly if it sought to rake over old coals and to reignite past policy issues that are now closed. If this happened, it is something that would need to be raised with the committee chair as part of the performance management and governance processes that will be in place.

Seeking to impose a rigid form of words in legislation on these matters risks excluding the committee from areas where its scrutiny would be valuable. Attempts to distinguish current policy from established policy in statute would leave the committee wide open to challenge if interpretations of the wording differed. We are also of the view that, for the committee to provide targeted and effective parliamentary accountability, the committee’s report should not be subject to approval or preselection by Ministers. I would caution against the approach proposed my noble friend Lord Caithness, which would require Ministers to agree to the preparation of any report.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, talked about process. Clause 2(2) envisages that the committee can examine what adverse effects a policy might have on the welfare of animals and whether the Government are aware of all those possible adverse effects and fully understand them so they can properly take them into account in their decision. This is clearly about the process followed in decision-making.

My noble friend Lord Ridley talked about the committee’s ability to consult stakeholders. He is right that the committee may choose to engage with a range of external bodies and individuals, as it sees fit. This stakeholder engagement is important as it will allow the committee to prioritise policies that are more significant in terms of the nature and scale of their effect on animals or the extent of parliamentary, departmental, stakeholder or public interest.