Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (Legal Aid: Domestic Abuse) (Amendment) Order 2024

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for those comments. I think that I can reply briefly. I recall that on 23 January 2023—because I reminded myself of the passage in Hansard—the noble Lord raised the example of the teacher, and I am interested that there has been a follow-up, that the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, has advised on this and that it is complicated. The point that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, is making is that, the more we make these orders, and the more we create these procedures, the more complex it becomes. That is a fair point, and it is one that I hope the Government take account of as we go along, because there are unintended consequences to some of these things.

The underlying thought is that the existing procedures, such as they are, in the magistrates’ court and with the non-molestation orders in the family courts, needed a more overall approach. The family courts needed additional powers to order tagging and various other powers that, for the moment, are reserved to the criminal courts—so we have a comprehensive scheme, but exactly how it works is still to be worked through. In that connection, my understanding is that there will be a more detailed pilot, which apparently includes Croydon, Greater Manchester and the London Boroughs of Sutton and Bromley, as well as—for some reason—the British Transport Police, to work through some of those issues and the best way to deliver the legal support that is so important in these areas.

I entirely welcome and support the noble Lord’s comment that legal advice for all parties here is very important. I am not completely sure that the teacher in the example given would have qualified for legal aid, but at least there is now a structure there that should enable people to have legal advice on a wider scale than has hitherto been the case, now that we have plugged that gap.

That is probably as far as I can take it at the moment—save again to say that, as we create all these different procedures, processes and possibilities, up to a point we risk bogging the system down in all kinds of other complexities. That is, I am afraid, the cost of proceeding down this road.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

I had expected to be able to continue doing what I was doing while the debate on this order took place but I was fascinated by the example that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, gave. I would just make the rather obvious point about the importance of wide consultation when arrangements are being brought in, in order to avoid the unintended consequences to which the noble and learned Lord referred. Nobody can have enough imagination to anticipate all the intended consequences or consequences that might be less desirable than others but I have noticed recently that, for a number of SIs, the Explanatory Memorandum has said that there has not been any consultation because it has not been necessary.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

I am sure that the noble Baroness’s point is well taken. I very much hope that the pilots I mentioned will sort out the unintended consequences, or at least minimise them.