Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

My Lords, I had a long speech prepared but I have decided to reject it on the grounds that what we will hear tonight will be sound common sense. At the end of my speech on Second Reading I said that we would expect sound common sense, and all the indications are that this will happen. I sincerely hope that that is the case. I am going to make a very short contribution tonight—possibly the shortest I have ever made in your Lordships’ House —and make two specific comments. I have argued and campaigned for this change for many years and, as I say, I hope that I will be able to say thank you.

Not only is this a health issue that will protect the public and bring HIV treatment in line with other infectious diseases—it will save valuable NHS resources in the long term. Principally, however, it is absolutely wrong to discriminate against any section of the community, as has been happening since this rule was first brought in in 2004. There is no question but that universal access, which this regulation will introduce, will be very important in ultimately reducing the cost to the NHS and in making it easier to have early diagnosis, thereby reducing onward transmission and guaranteeing hospital treatment if that is required. No deterrent should be put in the way of reducing transmission and treatment. I hope that that will now cease.

I hope, finally, that the concept of HIV tourism has been accepted as the myth that I have always believed it to be. I hope I am right in saying that I can genuinely thank the Government for a change to this rule. I dread the thought that the Minister is going to stand up and say the wrong thing now—I hope that that is not the case. I also want to thank those HIV organisations that, along with me and others, have campaigned for this change for many years. It has been a long and hard battle trying to persuade people that what we are asking for is, in many ways, not a big issue, although it is for those who are affected by it. Again, I can only say thank you, given that we are perhaps going to get regulations that will change that.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I did have a speech prepared in support of this amendment, based on the Welsh experience. However, after being woken by the “Today” programme telling me about a debate that we had not had—or that I thought I might have perhaps slept through—and announcing how the Government had responded in a way that I could not recall, I decided simply to bin my speech and live in hope. That is how we all are at the moment. We await the Government’s response to the amendments.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, perhaps I may just say that when I was a Minister this was one of the few battles that I had and lost in the department. I shall be very glad if the noble Earl has had the battle and won—congratulations. I also say well done to all those who have been campaigning on this issue, particularly my noble friend Lady Gould.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I am afraid that my name is not attached to the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. I was not quick enough to get in the queue of people who wanted to get their names on this, but I have been banging on a little about the disappearance of the HPA and the need for an independent body just as is described in this amendment—and even better in the other amendments seeking a special health authority. I suppose we are not likely to get that this evening but we may be able to get somewhere with Amendment 162.

What I find very difficult to understand is why the Secretary of State would want to take this on. Having chaired the PHLS and then the HPA and now Public Health England, which is an even bigger body with even more responsibilities and a whole host of practical activities—scientific, laboratory, epidemiological—why would a government department want to take that on? Is it that it did not trust the HPA? Is it to save money? Did the HPA in some way fail? What is the rationale for the Secretary of State to want to take it inside the department and lose that level of independence, that ability to look outside and that facility to take advice from independent chairmen and members of the board?

If the department wants this job done—and I do not doubt that it wants this job done very well indeed—it cannot expect to do it as well within the department as an agency that was directly responsible and directly answerable to the Secretary of State but had that degree of independence that would give confidence to the public and the profession that it was doing a good job. I find it difficult to imagine why that cannot be done, and I do not understand the reasons why not.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I also did not put my name on this amendment because there was not enough space for more than four names.

I have a concern that the Health Protection Agency itself may have been a bit like a prophet in its own land and that it was not recognised fully until now, when we see its disappearance, just how important the work is that it has been doing, both nationally and internationally. Apart from already earning money for the UK, its potential to carry on doing so in the emerging large economies in other parts of the world and expanding its scientific input is enormous. It has the role not only of public health but of anticipating what threats may emerge in the future, particularly in the range of toxins that it looks at and studies.

These amendments seem to solve a problem that we have all heard about. We have all been at meetings; we have all met with the relevant people. I really hope that we will not just get told that this cannot happen for a variety of reasons. The amendments seem to be solving a problem that has only been created as a result of these changes. I cannot see that there is anything to lose, except that if the amendments are not accepted we might lose the capacity to earn international research funds in the future.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, noble Lords have raised a number of issues regarding Public Health England, many of which we discussed in Committee. Both then and today, we heard serious points very cogently argued, which we greatly appreciate. We have considered all these issues very carefully. Since Committee stage, the department has published more detail on the new public health system, including its operating model for Public Health England. The views expressed in Committee influenced the tone of those documents, and I hope that I can now reassure noble Lords that our proposals will give the agency the operational independence that it needs to become the leading organisation of its kind in the world.

The first point I want to stress is that Public Health England will function openly and transparently. Its operational freedom will be formalised in a clear and published framework agreement between it and the department. My noble friend’s amendment proposes that the PHE board must have a non-executive chair and a majority of non-executive members. We have considered this at length and understand what the amendment aims to achieve, but we do not agree that this is the best option.

The Public Body Review was clear that Ministers should take more responsibility for arm’s-length bodies. Cabinet Office guidance is also clear that nothing should undermine the direct accountability of an agency chief executive to the relevant Minister. We believe that there are sound and pragmatic reasons underlying that position, which could be put at risk by a governance structure dominated by non-executive representatives.

The public will look to the Secretary of State for leadership and accountability in protecting the nation from threats to health and they will be right to do so. The buck must be seen to stop with him. In the past, public health has too often been pushed to the fringe, which has been recognised by noble Lords. This arrangement brings public health centre stage. Instead of the NHS simply being a treatment service, public health in its widest sense will be central to the new arrangements.