Children and Families Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly support the passionate plea of my noble friend. I do not believe that, when the Labour Government brought in the original Bill, their intention was to totally exclude young people with dyslexia from the possibility of ever completing an apprenticeship. I do not believe that it is the intention of this Government either. I accept that it may be a little tricky to sort this out and that this is probably the first legislative opportunity to change the legislation that inadvertently produced this situation, so we must make use of it.

I am very proud of this Government’s record on apprenticeships but they must not exclude talented young people who are able to get through all the practical side of the apprenticeship, often with flying colours, and show tremendous commitment, hard work, conscientiousness and all those qualities that we are looking for, but simply need a little help with written material. That help, once given, will enable them not just to get through the exam but to move on into a career. If we can sort this out, it will also send a message to employers that says, “There are a lot of talented people here who have gone through their apprenticeships with a little bit of help and they will prove to be very worthwhile employees to you if you take them on, post-apprenticeship, as long as you give them a little help”. I think that many local authorities can help employers to do that. What is the alternative? As my noble friend said, they end up with “NEET” on their foreheads. That is what we do not want. It causes the young people and their families a great deal of distress and, in the end, there can be long-term costs to young people from not being in employment, education or training.

These young people have a chance and we must make sure that they get it. It is soul-destroying when they start the apprenticeship, get through all the rest of it, and then find that they cannot complete it and get that important certificate because they cannot complete the written part. We really have to sort this out and we have to do it now.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, several members of my family have varying degrees of dyslexia. All are able and intelligent, and have talents. My daughter-in-law, who has moderate dyslexia, has an excellent degree from the University of Bristol. It can be done but these people must have extra. That group of young people who want apprenticeships will be a loss to the country if they cannot get through the necessary exams. It is a major advantage for the country to make sure that they get through. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, have put this case extremely well. It is a relatively simple matter and I endorse the excellent work done by this Government in many respects, particularly on apprenticeships, but we should not leave out this important group. The funny thing about this is that it is often not properly appreciated that an enormous number of young people are dyslexic. Let us get out there, find them, help them and make them really useful members of society—without, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, “NEET” across their foreheads.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB)]

My Lords, my amendment is very short and applies to many other aspects of this part of the Bill, particularly anything connected with assessment and further work, which, as my amendment states, should happen as soon as possible. I tabled it because I was disappointed that although this clause has, “Using best endeavours” in its title, there was no reference to a sense of urgency. Urgency is needed, as has been vividly explained by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, because people who have been identified with a possible SEN must be given the opportunity of developing as soon as possible so that their valuable time is not wasted. That is the purpose of my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s comments. I was asked about support for apprenticeships. We amended the Bill following pre-legislative scrutiny to ensure that young people on an apprenticeship could receive support through an EHC plan. This puts people in apprenticeships on the same footing as those in further education.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister yet again, but we are dealing with an extremely limited point. It is not support during the apprenticeship that we are talking about; it is support to complete the apprenticeship. That is not there at the moment; there is a gap and that is where the problem is. I am not sure that the Minister—with so many of us in this Room—has quite understood the particular problem about which we are concerned and which the noble Lord, Lord Addington, has so very well set out.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, when I have finished my speech, the best thing all of us can do is to read Hansard carefully, but I am not deaf to your Lordships’ concerns. On the other hand, I am not an expert on them either. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, suggested that apprenticeships are not covered by the Joint Council for Qualifications’ guidance. As a point of clarity, the JCQ includes functional skills in its guidance. I or my noble friend Lady Northover would be happy to meet noble Lords to follow up on this.

In addition, the Equality Act 2010 applies to all apprenticeship training providers and employers. They are required to make reasonable adjustments for disabled young people during their apprenticeships. We will promote the availability of reasonable adjustments in apprenticeships more widely, including through the National Apprenticeship Service. We are also currently considering how we can improve data collection to monitor how effectively we are supporting young people with SEN and disabilities in apprenticeships.

More widely, Clause 27 states that a local authority is under a general duty to keep the special education provision in its area under review and consider the extent to which that provision is sufficient to meet the needs of young people concerned. In doing so, it must consult proprietors of post-16 institutions, which would include private training and apprenticeship providers.

Given these existing duties, the additional measures in the amendment are unnecessary. In addition, they risk having a negative impact on apprenticeship providers, including small businesses. There are currently 100,000 employers in more than 160,000 workplaces offering apprenticeships. Most employers use a training provider to help deliver the apprenticeships, and the majority of providers are private organisations.

My noble friend Lord Addington asked me about the requirement to achieve English and maths qualifications to be removed from apprenticeship completion conditions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I will comment briefly on the amendments and support the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and other noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon. As ever, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, made a very powerful case for quality teaching to identify children with dyslexia and all other specific learning difficulties. It is important that we broaden it and do not just concentrate on the—very important—needs of children with dyslexia.

In earlier debates on the Bill, and again this afternoon, we have stressed the importance of earlier intervention. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, has just done that again. It is important that we identify children at the earliest opportunity so that we can give them the support they need to maximise the opportunities that their education can give them. These amendments clearly build on that theme. However, for early intervention to take place consistently, all teachers should be trained in the technique of spotting where it might be necessary. They need to be aware of the range of support mechanisms that are effective and can make a difference. This cannot be left to chance or to some teachers developing a personal interest in SEN, which is, all too often, what happens at the moment.

For each teacher who is unaware, or fails to act, another child’s life chances are blighted. We very much agree with the mandatory module in teacher training. Leaving it to individual schools to provide the knowledge and skills for teaching staff will leave it too late, and we believe it will result in piecemeal provision if we proceed on that basis. Sorting this provision out is crucial to the success of all other aspects of the Bill when it comes to SEN. If we do not get teacher training right, all the other aspects of support that we are talking about here will fall at the very first hurdle.

We also agree with the proposal that the SEN co-ordinator should be a qualified teacher who has been trained in SEN and specific learning difficulties, and we were pleased that the Minister has now acknowledged that the co-ordinator should be a qualified teacher. These high-level skills are crucial to ensure that the school properly focuses attention on the needs of specific groups of pupils, as specified in the new Ofsted framework. It is an interesting development that, with the Government’s new-found faith in unqualified teachers, special educational needs co-ordinators will be the only posts in a school required to be qualified teachers, but I slightly digress.

This leads to another issue, which is that if the Minister agrees with the amendments with regard to teacher training modules and the status of school SENCOs, we are faced with a considerable knowledge deficit among existing teachers, both qualified and unqualified. What further steps do the Government intend to take to ensure that training for existing teachers and, indeed, existing SENCOs can meet our expectation of early intervention and action? How can we be confident that their knowledge of the latest physical and technical equipment is kept up to date if we are focusing just on newly qualified teachers and new training for SEN teachers? I am echoing the points made by other noble Lords, and I hope that the Minister will be able to address the issues.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

When my dyslexic granddaughter was identified as such in her excellent primary school, it sent someone out to learn about it because there was no one in the school who had any idea of how to deal with dyslexia. It was an excellent primary school in north London, Eleanor Palmer Primary School, for which I have the highest respect. I wonder how many schools, if they had a dyslexic child, would take the trouble to send somebody out to learn. If a school as good as that did not have anyone who understood it, what is going on? It seems to me that these amendments are extremely important.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, there is a Division in the Chamber. The Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes and resume at 6.02 pm.