Care Bill [HL]

Baroness Brinton Excerpts

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his full and thorough explanation of the Government’s changes to the Bill since it left this House. We will deal with each issue as it comes up. I will deal with Amendments 1 to 10, 44 and 46 to 51 on the Better Care Fund, and Amendments 12 to 39 on the care and support appeals process.

In light of today’s revelations about the Government’s problems with the aims and operations of the Better Care Fund, perhaps I might ask a couple more questions that follow on from the earlier exchange with the Minister on this matter. The Government’s technical amendments—Amendments 1 to 10, 44 and 46 to 51 —on the fund and achieving integration of care and support between the NHS and local authorities are straightforward. Of course, whether the fund can ever achieve what it set out to achieve looks like a very different matter.

The Cabinet Office review has found that the £3.8 billion fund lacks financial credibility. The Nuffield Trust says that it is based on “flawed logic”. The King’s Fund says that the aim stressed by the Minister earlier to get spending plans in place for the fund in time for the 2015-16 Budget is “completely unrealistic”. Its chief executive, Chris Ham, points out in today’s Guardian what many of us have been stressing all along, despite supporting the principle of and need for the fund; namely, that hospital budgets can be reduced only if much more care is already being provided in the community by GPs, community nurses and staff who are supporting patients in their homes. He says that just cutting NHS hospital budgets now would place,

“additional stress on an NHS already struggling to balance the books and maintain acceptable standards of patient care”.

Surely that is the point. Taken with the huge underfunding of local authority social care highlighted by the Age UK report Care in Crisis that was referred to earlier, this is the underlying problem that has still to be addressed. The fund does nothing to address the huge social care funding gap that has led to the cuts in social care support that Age UK’s report has highlighted, particularly the ending of help with essential tasks for older people, such as eating, washing and getting dressed. Those are the very services that help them remain independent and living in their own homes with a good quality of life.

The Minister says the fund has not been suspended, but there are clearly problems. Can the Minister give us any further details about the Cabinet Office review findings, and in particular the concern about the lack of detail about how the savings will be achieved? What is the timescale for the further review referred to by several newspapers and the specialist press today? Can the Minister explain how progress is to be made in enabling older people to remain active and independent at home or in the community when there is just not the funding or support available to help them?

Finally, on the technical amendments to the care and support appeals process, we welcome the Government’s announcement accepting the two recommendations from the Delegated Powers Committee and fully support these government amendments.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I have just one issue to raise, on Amendment 32 and the Government’s amendments in light of the Delegated Powers Committee report. I speak on behalf of a number of people who are grateful that the Government have been able to respond very quickly to this. It is much more sensible for this to be an affirmative instrument rather than a negative one.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, in view of the press coverage today, perhaps I could ask the Minister to confirm a point. When the Better Care Fund was announced, the intention was that projects would start in April 2015. Is that still the Government’s intention or has the timescale been put back? What seems to me constructive is the move to have more engagement from the NHS in setting up the projects under the Better Care Fund. One key aspect of the Better Care Fund on which it rests is ensuring that there are enough strong and appropriate providers of community services to ensure that older people get the care in the community that they need.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wall, put a question during our earlier exchanges that went straight to this matter. You cannot simply close spaces in the NHS and expect that somehow people will be provided—magically, at a stroke—with services in the community. I quite see why people have leapt on this as a story, but I struggle to see the substantive issue. I go back to a point that was made earlier: how many times have we stood in your Lordships’ House and talked about integration of health and social care as being a desirable end that will deliver better services? It seems to me that the NHS may be questioning some matters to do with budgets. That is not a case for undermining the Government’s whole policy.

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[Lord Horam (Con)]

My Lords, we owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for tabling an amendment to this Motion. I was present at the meeting yesterday, along with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, when we had a fruitful discussion on these issues. When I was the Member of Parliament for Orpington these matters were the bane of my life. The South London Hospitals Trust was a huge problem, as many noble Lords will be aware, with debts of around £150 million at one stage. Although at another period of my life I was a Minister for Health, I was specifically excluded from dealing with the problems of London hospitals because I was a London MP. It is ironic to get to a position of power where you might actually be able to do something for your constituency but then to be disempowered from dealing with it at all. None the less, that is the proper way to proceed.

It is worth bearing in mind that we have now got to a sensible position whereby there is parity in consultation, understanding and agreement between a commissioning group affected by the hospital trust’s special administrator and one which may be outside the trust and, therefore, nominally unaffected by it. Parity of esteem is the effect of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. I am grateful to the Minister for responding so positively on these matters: we have now reached a very sensible position. However, we should not believe that that is enough. It is a necessary condition for resolving some of these problems but it is not sufficient. Ironically, in the case of Lewisham and the South London Hospitals Trust, there was a very good consultation, called A Picture of Health, which lasted for two years and encompassed all the hospital trusts in south-east London. It was very extensive—and expensive, if I may say so—but it came to the wrong conclusion. The conclusion was that Lewisham should continue as a hospital trust on its own and that the other three principal hospitals—Queen Elizabeth, Woolwich, Princess Royal University Hospital, Bromley and St Mary’s, Sidcup—should all be put into one huge trust. That never worked and that particular trust has had to have special measures to deal with its financial problems.

That excellent consultation ultimately reached the wrong conclusions. Ironically, the rather more short-circuited consultations conducted by the special administrator led to rather better conclusions. We now have a solution on the Bromley side of things, as it is now a part of King’s College Hospital NHS Trust. It has effectively been taken over by it, which is a very sensible arrangement. St Mary’s, Sidcup is now doing other things—quite rightly because it is an old hospital and did not really have the facilities to run an accident and emergency department in the way that a modern hospital needs to do. Woolwich has been put in with Lewisham. We therefore have the makings of a better solution despite inadequate consultation. It shows that we do not merely need good consultation with everyone understanding what is happening; we need somebody to reach the right conclusions at the end of the day. I am referring here to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. He is absolutely right that there needs to be a way that the public interest—as well as the understandable more local interests—can be reflected, otherwise we will never make real progress.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made the important point that there are really big problems. We all have scars resulting from the closure of hospitals that sometimes have to be closed. He will be aware of the report last year by the NHS Confederation, the royal colleges and the organisation representing the patients’ voice, which said that up to 20 general district hospitals in this country need to be closed if we are to have a sustainable hospital service and a sustainable NHS. If we do not close those hospitals over a period, after consultation and so on, we will be taking money away from other parts of the NHS, such as mental health and GP services, which are badly needed. We cannot afford to keep hospitals going when they are in need of change.

The way in which change needs to happen is becoming apparent—there is a general consensus. First, there should be more specialist hospitals. I note that the King’s Fund says that A&E departments, maternity care, neonatal services, heart services and stroke care are all areas where specialist hospitals can give better care than general district hospitals do at the moment. That is already happening in London, certainly in the case of stroke care. The number of hospitals has been reduced and stroke care has immeasurably improved, I think to the tune of 50% over the previous two or three years. Equally, of course, the other aspect of this improvement is bringing care back to the community and taking it away from hospitals. People do not want to go to hospital; they think they will get an infection or a disease, apart from anything else. People die as a consequence of being in hospital. We therefore need to bring care back to the community. However, all of that takes time.

I therefore agree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, that we cannot allow ourselves to get into a situation where everybody defends every brick of every local hospital. We all know what happens. As soon as there is a threat to a local hospital the local MPs and the local newspapers get on their high horse, the campaigners come out and there are parades down the street, and no one can move an inch. I hope that noble Lords can see this legislation in the round. It provides for the proper, equal consultation of all interested parties, but we should not put road blocks in the way of necessary change in the NHS. If we do, we will have done the NHS a very bad service.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I add the thanks of the Liberal Democrats to those that have already been offered for the help from the Minister and his officials since this matter was last discussed in your Lordships’ House. There have been a number of meetings and an enormous amount of correspondence during that time. A key part of that has been the definition of “consultation”, and how to ensure that services in another trust area rather than only an adjacent area are considered. I am particularly grateful because the amendment tabled by my honourable friend Paul Burstow in the House of Commons is broadly the same as today’s government amendment. I thank him too for his tireless work in expanding this. I very much appreciate the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in his amendment, which try to strengthen that.

However, I am not convinced that there is a need for further strengthening. The committee is there, and I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that, following the request made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The committee is there to help set things up and ensure that the progress made as the special administrators start their work takes place in an appropriate fashion, and that every aspect of the consultation—which clearly has worried your Lordships—is addressed.

I want particularly to come back to the point about not considering only adjacent services. Much of the discussion this afternoon has been very focused on London, for fairly obvious reasons. However, there are issues around reconfigurations in rural areas, which do not mimic the pattern of a large number of hospitals in a fairly narrow space. Services may be much more scattered. That is why the word “adjacent”, to which others have referred, is not particularly appropriate. Quite often people will find themselves going not only to one area but beyond that area for a very particular service. It is important that the amendment laid down by the Government today makes it absolutely clear about the extension of consultation with those affected trusts.

[Baroness Murphy]

My Lords, the disease with the greatest economic impact on the NHS is the disease of inertia. As the Secretary of State, Jeremy Hunt, pointed out in the other place during the debates on this issue, we are now four years on from the very public exposure of the problems of Mid Staffs and we have not yet made a decision. The trust administration procedures are indeed invoked only as a very last resort, but they are a very necessary one. I am very worried because, although the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, thinks that this government amendment does not go far enough, I am afraid that I think that the government amendment as it is goes quite a long way. I was much happier with it before we all started meddling with it.

The real issue is that we must start to make decisions, and we are not making decisions. We are allowing services to carry on producing bad care. We are allowing them to get into debt, which means transferring money from good services. It is almost never possible to reconfigure a bad service out of one hospital, or indeed to shut one hospital or service, without a substantial reconfiguration of services in another hospital. Unfortunately, it will always impose on the wishes of commissioning groups in another adjacent location or a little further down the line in a rural area.

I will, with reluctance, accept the Government’s amendments, although they add a little more consultation to the process. Please, however, let us go no further than that, and please let us not support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which in my view would take us even further away from where we want to be.

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[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, the question that we are debating at the moment as we approach the enactment of the Bill is whether any extra words in any of these amendments are needed to provide more safeguards and greater public trust and confidence. The bit of law which is paramount but which has not been mentioned so far is the Human Rights Act. This Act, in Section 3, requires that all legislation, including this Bill, must be read and given effect to, if it is possible to do so, compatibly with the convention rights. One convention right, in Article 8, is the right to personal privacy. The Human Rights Act also provides that if any public authority, which includes the Secretary of State and any body performing functions of a public nature, were to breach the right to privacy, it would be liable to obligations, damages and other remedies under the Act. We do not have a written constitution which guarantees privacy; instead, we have the data protection legislation, which is broad-ranging, and the Human Rights Act.

The right to privacy requires three things. One is reasonable legal certainty where there is to be any invasion of privacy—one must know what it is for. The second is a legitimate aim—it must be done for a proper purpose. The third thing is that any invasion must satisfy the principle of proportionality—it must not be excessive. There is a lot of case law on this. Indeed, I was involved in one of the cases years ago in the Court of Appeal—called, I think, Source Informatics —which dealt with the lawfulness of supplying anonymised patient data.

I do not think it is sensible to add further language or further mechanisms over and above those that the Minister has described this afternoon. The more specific we become and the more we go on adding, the more ambiguities we create over what the additional words mean and how they might be interpreted. My view is that it is much better to use the Human Rights Act, the data protection legislation and the specific safeguards that the Minister has adumbrated very clearly today. In my view, they completely satisfy the right to patients’ personal privacy and I cannot think that adding these other words will add to public confidence. It seems to me that public confidence depends more on leadership and public information based upon the framework that we have.

Therefore, I hope that we do not divide the House on this. I hope that we are all able to agree that confidentiality and privacy are vital, as is public confidence, but that we should not overlegislate and overprescribe. In particular, we should not do so when we are considering Commons amendments at the 11th and a half hour before midnight, and we may later come to regret anything that we now add which creates further problems and further ambiguities.

[Baroness Brinton]

I agree with the last comments of the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Ribeiro. One of the problems that your Lordships’ House has faced with this is the issue of data used for research versus data used for commercial purposes. That becomes a very grey area when some commercial firms are doing pure research. It may be worth your Lordships’ House remembering that even commercial research, whether it is carried out by research departments or within universities and other research bodies, is bound by the strongest ethical codes in which we should all have trust and assurance because they are respected around the world. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm again—I know he has already done so—that commercial data will not be released so that, for example, an insurance company could raise premiums for a particular group of patients. That is the fear that the public have, rather than the issue of using research data, for which we already have many structures and for which the Health Research Authority is properly the correct authority to make sure that the codes are followed absolutely. There is a difficulty in that pseudonymised and anonymised data can sometimes be undone, but that issue already exists in other research areas and there are plenty of mechanisms to hold researchers to account should they use any of that information themselves. I support the point of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that we should be content with the Government and that if we start to overprescribe, we will end up unravelling some of the complex but effective arrangements that already exist in the research world.

Secondly and very briefly, I have previously raised with the Minister one very specific point on this issue, and I have asked him this question in writing in advance. Has there been any progress on the timetable for inclusion of primary care musculoskeletal data into the care.data programme? I understand that it was an unintentional omission earlier in the process but, given the number of people in this country suffering from musculoskeletal problems, it would be quite extraordinary if they were not included at an early stage.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I would just like to say a few words about this because I am very involved in the whole world of IT, personal data and identification and the issues around examining the data. One of the things that has become apparent to me is that if care.data is to be effective, public trust must be maintained in it—that is the core problem. It needs to be there so that we can do epidemiological studies, and to do those some information will have to be in the database—such as postcodes, so that you can look for clusters and so on—which will potentially allow people to be identified. Once you compare it and link it across to other databases, if you are looking for someone who is of a certain age, a certain health profile and in a certain area down to 100 yards, it is fairly easy to start working out who they are by cross-linking. However, it may be important to take that risk from time to time, as long as it is done properly. What we do not want if this is to work is for people to feel a need to opt out. You cannot do epidemiological studies if half the population decide they are going to opt out. It is essential that the public trust the database, trust that they will be protected as far as possible and trust that the information will not be misused against them. That is the core to getting this whole thing to work, and if you fail on that you have had it.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester, made a very good point about the human rights stuff being in there and that we have the Data Protection Act and all these things. The Minister also mentioned the Data Protection Act. However, there are some challenges with this. One of them is how you bring a case under the Human Rights Act when a department or the health service is acting incorrectly. It is quite tricky; it does not happen overnight and you would be lucky to stop it. There are wonderful protections in the Data Protection Act but there is a certain amount of vagueness about exactly where the limits are and, worse still, it will all be changed this autumn or winter when the new European Parliament assembles. The proposals nearly got through before the coming elections. Under the digital single market agenda, a new Data Protection Act regulation will almost certainly come out of Europe somewhere towards the end of the year. That will have direct action in this country. We have no control over it as it is a European law that is directly effective in this country, and the Information Commissioner over here will be the person who will enforce it. We will have no say in whether it relaxes things too far or becomes too prescriptive in what it does. We cannot rely on it for certainty in the future