Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Baroness Brinton Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 7th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak after the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, who, as usual, brings his accounting experience to make us think about things in a slightly different way. It has also been really good to hear three maiden speeches. The noble Lords, Lord Grayling and Lord Cryer, spoke from very different perspectives but their experience and knowledge shone through and we look forward to hearing more from them in the House.

It was a real pleasure to hear the maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Pidgeon. I have known her for some years too, and her expertise on transport in the Greater London Assembly was second to none. She is a tireless campaigner on improving transport for people, making it more reliable and more accessible. That is how we got to know each other. I believe that she will make as strong a mark in your Lordships’ House as she did in the GLA.

Other noble Lords have already demonstrated their knowledge of the structure of the current railway system and expressed their views on this first step of ensuring that public sector operators can be awarded contracts without us having to go to private ones. I want to focus on a key element of Labour’s paper Get Britain Moving, which is not particularly evident in this Bill but which I think is vital. It will not surprise noble Lords to hear that this element is accessibility and assistance services.

Get Britain Moving has a key thread of accessibility and ensuring that assistance is available to all passengers who need it. Indeed, accessibility is in three of the five missions in the paper: “Get Britain building again”, “Get the NHS back on its feet” and “Break down barriers to opportunity”. The contrast with the Bill that we are talking about today, its Explanatory Memorandum and the final-stage impact assessment could not be more stark. Accessibility and assistance are virtually invisible.

The Minister may say that they will come later, but the problem is that, in Clause 2(2)(b) of the Bill, the provision of services means that there will be no improvement in accessibility unless there is a specified change, because it talks about transferring existing arrangements over. If access arrangements at the moment are unsatisfactory and not meeting the law under the Equality Act 2010 provisions for disabled people, will the Government ensure that any new provision of services does meet these legal access requirements?

Why does it matter? The last Government and the present Government have kept talking about Great British Rail services, but the reality is that every part of the rail service structure that disabled passengers need to use is struggling. Transport for All and Disability Rights UK campaign constantly on this. Some of this is the responsibility of the train operating companies and some the responsibility of Network Rail.

I am so glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is in her place. Most noble Lords will have heard that, a few weeks ago, she was left on a train at King’s Cross late at night. No one came to assist her. She had to get out of her chair, crawl from the floor of the train on to the platform, lift her chair down on to the platform and then get back into it. As she says, despite everyone being horrified—I agree with her on that—this happens every day to disabled people. For those like me with electric chairs, pulling chairs off the train is not an answer. When it has happened to me, twice, at King’s Cross late at night, I have had to work out who to ring. I cannot ring the police as it is not urgent. I cannot ring 111; no one will answer until next week. I cannot ring the station because nobody answers the phone. What do you do at midnight? The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, came to my rescue on one of those occasions. She tweeted the chief executive of LNER and he managed to find someone to come and find me. She is a star.

But it is not just about understaffed assistance services. It is also the infrastructure at stations, including lifts and the lack of level boarding. The Campaign for Level Boarding rightly points out that the new Thanet Parkway, opened a year ago this July, still does not have level boarding and does not have full-time staff at the station. The purchase of different types and styles of trains means that every station has to use multiple ramps and some train operating companies no longer have staff other than the driver on trains to help you get off when there are no staff at the station. Disabled passengers were promised TUAG—turn up and go—years ago. The cuts and poor infrastructure mean that we have a much worse service. These days, even if we have booked in advance, we are often told when we turn up at a station, “We will absolutely do our best to get you on your planned train but we are very short-staffed; it may not be possible”. This is madness.

Ten days ago, I had to travel from Watford Junction to York for a regular meeting. I always allow more time between Euston and King’s Cross in case of delays. When I arrived at Watford Junction there was a fatality on the line, no trains were going anywhere and the staff, despite dealing with the emergency, managing a distressing situation, found me to tell me to go to St Albans on the Thameslink line instead. They undertook to let King’s Cross know that I would miss my train to York and asked staff at King’s Cross to help me get on another train. It was difficult, because they are often fully booked.

When I got to St Albans, it transpired the lift from the entrance to help get me to the middle platform was out of order. So, to get to it, I had to go to back up to the main road, over the railway ridge and down the other side. I could not cross over where everyone else did because there was no dropped curve. So I had to go down to the traffic lights, cross the road and go back up to the other entrance to St Albans station, through the ticket barrier, all the way down the platform to the far end to the lift.

The staff said the next train was in seven minutes and asked if I could make it. The answer was that I could not. So, while I was chatting to staff waiting for the next train to St Pancras, they informed me that the lift at St Pancras was not working, either. I had to go on to Farringdon. When I got to Farringdon, I got out and asked the lovely assistance person, “So I go up and come down the other side?” He said, “No, you can’t do that because there is only one lift at St Pancras. It is the same one that’s out of order. You have to go out of the station, find the Underground and find the assistance staff, who will take you down to the Circle Line and you get off at King’s Cross”.

By this stage, my blood pressure was going through the roof. I certainly missed the train that was planned for York, but the one wonderful thing that happened when I got to King’s Cross was that not only Euston but Watford had rung King’s Cross and they had checked to find me a space on every possible train in that gap. So I did not make the beginning of the meeting, but I got there for the end. All the staff at every stage were wonderful: encouraging, supportive and as helpful as they could be.

This is not unusual. My story is exactly the same as that of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. We know that this happens to people every day. The lift at St Pancras has been out for weeks. This is affecting thousands of disabled people wanting to get to work. The new Government rightly say that they want to see more disabled people getting into work. We cannot get to work. This is vital.

The New Civil Engineer newsletter on 2 September noted that the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, who cannot be in his place and who was then chair of Network Rail, had said that Access for All was underperforming, with underspending on accessible capital works including £65 million of funding between 2019 and 2024 for accessible capital equipment at stations, including lifts.

In February, the German travel booking company Omio found that the UK ranked among the least accessible railway nations and reported

“alarming inadequacies for individuals with disability in national rail transport”

in the UK. Part of the problem is that Network Rail operates regionally and, with the TOCs having their own standards and their own systems, there is no consistency in provision.

By the way, the long-awaited Access for All portfolio sponsorship office has been delayed again. We are all still waiting for the DfT-commissioned AtkinsRéalis accessibility audit of all the over 2,500 stations, which was one of the recommendations in the Williams-Shapps plan for rail in 2021. So can the Minister outline how the Government will assure us that, as a matter of urgency, their priorities so ably discussed in Getting Britain Moving are put into action for this Bill before any franchise transfer happens? Because, until then, disabled people will not be able to rely on our rail system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who has participated in this very rich debate. I pay particular tribute to our three excellent maiden speeches. Well done to all three noble Lords. The reputation of the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, on the London Assembly comes before her; I know that she is a fearsome scrutineer, and I very much look forward to working with her.

I have to be honest: the noble Lord, Lord Grayling, has brought back some very painful memories. The last one concerned Leeds Bradford Airport—he was so positive about us getting a station next to it. Unfortunately, as I am sure he is aware, it is still on the drawing board. It reminds me that when I became leader of Leeds City Council, I had no idea how much of my time would be taken up discussing rail. Transport, yes, but rail: it was quite an extraordinary time.

I really welcome my noble friend Lord Cryer and thank him for his wonderful speech. Of course, coming from West Yorkshire, I took my kids on the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. I worked very closely with my noble friend’s mother, for whom I have the hugest admiration; she is such a strong and powerful advocate of support for vulnerable women in particular.

Before I move on, I want to reference the narrow scope of the Bill. Of course, we will explore many of the issues in Committee, but I ask for patience: a lot of the debate will take place on the main Bill when it comes forward. As we have heard, this is one of the first major pieces of legislation from this Government, delivering a manifesto commitment, and I feel very privileged to speak for the Government at Second Reading. I am very grateful to all Members who have given their support to the Bill, while raising very pertinent questions. I welcome the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, my noble friends Lord Faulkner and Lord Liddle, and many others. Of course, I am also very grateful for the support of my noble friend Lord Hendy.

Going back to the beginning of the debate, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for exposing the problems and all the good points he made. I thank my noble friend Lord Faulkner for recognising that the Bill’s being introduced so early in the legislative cycle is a real demonstration of the Government’s commitment. Obviously, we would like to continue the briefing sessions we have had thus far. Several speakers have questioned the case for public ownership, and we acknowledged and expected that. I will keep making the point that the privatised railways are simply not delivering for passengers or taxpayers. We cannot keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

I am afraid that a culture of failure has been tolerated, although I acknowledge that there are exceptions, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. Our approach has clear public support. Just last month, a YouGov survey found that 66% of people nationally agree that railway companies should be run by the public sector, and only 12% favoured private operation, as referenced by my noble friend Lord Browne. As we have heard, there is broad consensus about the need to end the current fragmentation and refocus the whole railway system on serving passengers and freight users. The Williams Rail Review, which we have heard about, commissioned by the noble Lord, Lord Grayling, shared these aims, and Keith Williams himself agrees that public ownership should deliver better integration.

My noble friend Lord Liddle hit the nail on the head regarding the delays in implementation: simply too many years have gone by with no action. We have had so many reviews, and now I am delighted that we are here talking about how we can start to move things forward. I have outlined some of the progress that has already been made in public ownership, turning around the performance of franchises that have failed in private hands. Public ownership means that the whole railway can pull together for the benefit of passengers, instead of different companies, as we have discussed. Public ownership will also pave the way for the wider railways Bill and for Great British Railways, properly integrating track and train. I do not think we can repeat this point enough. This would simply not be possible under franchising, or even under the concession model operated by Transport for London, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott.

I shall give a few examples of what an integrated, publicly owned railway might mean in practice. First, we are looking at decisions about when to close the railway for essential maintenance—this can be so chaotic. It needs to be planned in a joined-up way, taking account of the needs not only of the engineers and those doing the work, but also the needs of passengers, minimising both the cost and the disruption involved.

Secondly, it will allow us to fix the delay attribution regime, which has created a wasteful industry of arguing over who is to blame for delays and moving money between Network Rail and train operators to compensate. Great British Railways will focus on identifying and tackling the causes of delay, making services more reliable.

Public ownership will allow us to address the overcomplicated fares system. We have heard several comments about the fares system today. It confuses passengers, erodes trust and actually turns people away and prevents them taking the services that they could and should take. It will help us avoid repeating the unintended consequences of franchising. As an example of the waste and inefficiency, I point out that at least four passenger train operators each has its own train crew depots in Newcastle alone, duplicating the costs of mess-rooms, management teams and other overheads. Keith Williams’s review found that there were around 75 different types of passenger train. This is an inefficient way to run any transport system and means that there is no consistency for the passenger. Such examples are repeated right across the system.

My noble friend Lord Faulkner gave a great exposé of what needs to be done to achieve modal shift: how we actually persuade people to get out of their cars or not to take the domestic flight. On integration, railways have been in a difficult environment for so long. Again, I was very pleased to meet my noble friend in Leeds for the first time, at the Middleton heritage railway—his passion for that came through in the debate today.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, raised important points about the accessibility of the railway and the inconsistent assistance offered by different train companies. I have heard the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, speak on the subject before: her passion and determination to make progress are touching and informative, and I really that hope everyone stopped to listen. Another unintended consequence of the fragmented system is that it can be so much more difficult than it needs to be, especially for disabled people. She raised important points about accessibility and, most importantly, the inconsistent assistance offered by different train companies.

Although there has been some improvement over the last few years—for example, the new two-hour booking window for assistance and the Passenger Assistance app—the proliferation of different booking systems means that, too often, customers still do not get the assistance that they have booked, and certainly do not get the assistance they deserve. This issue exists across all areas, including the number of different train designs, which all require different adjustments from disabled people. Over time, public ownership will allow us to meet passengers’ needs in a more coherent, consistent way.

I was disappointed that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, was unable to attend the beginning of this Session, but I am delighted she is here today. Her extraordinary commitment is a testament to the power required to bring the change we need. I know the Rail Minister has met with her about her recent experience, and I pay tribute to her for raising the public profile through what happened to her. It is so important that these stories are told, heard and, most importantly, acted on. As we know, the train operator concerned, LNER, is conducting a formal investigation into that specific issue. I also know that the Secretary of State and the Rail Minister will take a keen interest in ensuring that the findings are fully and swiftly acted on.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

Will the Minister agree to meet both of us to discuss other issues, such as the apps and the inconsistencies between the train companies? Things are not quite as shiny and rosy as she was describing them.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My apologies. I was not trying to make things out to be shiny and rosy; I was just trying to say there was a proliferation of different types. I would be delighted to meet with both noble Baronesses.

I also reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that Clause 2 simply provides that services must be secured by awarding a contract to a public sector company. It does not prevent us from improving services or terms if needed. There is nothing to prevent services being changed for the better when they come under public operation.

We have heard a great deal about actual performance. I will pick up on the aspects raised by several Members today. The noble Lord, Lord Young, made comments about strikes, for example. Every time the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, speaks, I think we pay tribute to his experience with the unions and the issues they bring. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, also asked questions on this subject. The approach has to be to work with the trade unions rather than against them. As the experience of the last few weeks has shown, we have already drawn a line under two years of industrial action, allowing train operators to get on with delivering the improvements that are so badly needed. It is not rocket science and it needs to be recognised and taken seriously.

We have heard about the impact on private investment. The noble Earl, Lord Effingham, raised his concerns about this. I do not believe the premise that the approach will stifle private sector investment. Since the start of the Covid pandemic, the costs of operating franchise passenger services have been borne by Government, not by private train operators. That means that private operators no longer fund their own running costs or investments. We have to really ask ourselves how much real private investment is coming in at the moment, and of course we need to encourage it where we can. I have already highlighted the financial savings to the taxpayer from no longer paying fees to private operators. Public ownership will improve services while reducing the cost to the public purse. I absolutely acknowledge my noble friend Lord Berkeley’s comments about value for money.

I draw attention to my noble friend Lord Liddle’s comments about transparency, oversight and scrutiny. I reassure him that the contrast is published so it can be seen. I am more than happy to circulate a copy to anyone who would like to see it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, raised the issue of staffing when services transfer. To operate services successfully in the public sector, it is vital that existing staff transfer with them. The regulations—commonly known as TUPE—are designed to achieve this outcome, preserving key terms and conditions for staff as they transfer. These regulations will apply to future transfers from private to public operation, as they have done previously. There might just be a small number of people who do not transfer, as we have heard—for example, if they are seconded into a train operator from another employer. This process, combined with the expert staff already working in DOHL, will ensure that both strategic and operational roles are filled by people with the right experience to succeed. We have heard fears expressed around continuity, and I hope my answer undermines that point of view. Continued access to the railways pension scheme will also be assured, as it has been in previous transfers to public sector operation.

Many points have been raised in the debate about the Government’s plans for reform beyond this short Bill, including the arrangements for Great British Railways. I know that Ministers will enjoy debating these issues further with noble Lords and others as we develop our plans and once the further railways Bill is before your Lordships’ House. Although that debate is for the future, I am grateful for the views expressed today. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that the appetite for this debate is real and urgent; we can feel the great enthusiasm for moving the agenda forward.

I also reference the comments made by my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe around growth and how we can bring all these issues together. The issues that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised about sustainability, ecology and other environmental matters will be fundamental.

I will give some more reassurance: Great British Railways will be operationally independent, with day-to-day decisions made by professionals and experts, not politicians. It will not mark its own homework. Our proposals will ensure sound oversight, and we will consult on them so that noble Lords and others can consider them and share their views. The Office of Rail and Road will continue in its role as safety regulator, building on its world-leading record in this area.

Let me also reassure my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that we are proceeding with this Bill first so that we can start the process of bringing train services in-house. As I have said, it is expected that the Bill will come forward in this Session when parliamentary time allows. It is a priority. Again, I reassure my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe of the wider issues that will come together when we discuss this.

There has been a great deal of concern about freight. The Bill sets out specifically to end the franchising of passenger services, so it has no impact on rail freight. However, there is a crucial future role for freight businesses, so the railways Bill will require Great British Railways to enable the growth of rail freight. The Secretary of State will set an overall freight growth target to ensure that it remains a key priority.

Many issues were raised about this not being centralised and the fact that devolution is absolutely critical. I will comment on my noble friend Lord Whitty’s concern about passengers as consumers. The proposed passenger standards authority should help to reassure the voice of passengers, as we have said all the way through.

I think we have dealt with the constraints of the contracts put in place for poorly performing operators, such as Avanti. I assure the House that the Secretary of State will not hesitate to act if the contractual conditions for early termination are met. We cannot burden the taxpayer with the cost of compensating private operators for otherwise ending their contracts early.

I am absolutely sure that we will come back to discussing rolling stock in Committee. I recognise the concerns raised and comments that have been made. I thank my noble friend Lord Hanworth for his contribution and reassure my noble friend Lord Snape that we are not bringing rolling stock back into public ownership.

Once again, I thank all those who have spoken today for their thoughtful contributions. It has been encouraging to hear the broad consensus in favour of industry reform to put the passenger and freight user back at the heart of our railways. I am pleased to be here today to get the reform on track. This Bill will allow us to start bringing services back into public hands, providing the strongest possible foundation for our wider programme of reform.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Baroness Brinton Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I must first apologise to the Committee: I was not here for the Second Reading, because transport has never been my top priority in terms of matters that come before your Lordships’ House. Technology has been much more important to me, and it struck me that technology, which is advancing at an incredible pace—its capacity is doubling every two years—affects transport systems almost more than anywhere else.

We think here of the driverless cars that are being trialled at the moment, mainly in the United States, with a certain amount of success. The amount of money that the big tech companies in the United States can put into this means that we are going to get driverless cars within the foreseeable future, and that is going to completely revolutionise the whole business of how our cities operate. The price of taking taxis from A to B is going to come right down, which will affect car ownership. It will mean that people give up owning cars, which are getting more and more expensive, and will rent them for long journeys. At the same time our streets will be much emptier and it may well be, with the introduction of electric cars at the same time, that we reduce the pollution in our cities as well. This is coming whether we like it or not, and we must accept that technology is moving very fast and is going to have an enormous effect.

Driverless cars are tomorrow’s technology. Driverless trains are yesterday’s technology; we already have driverless trains. The Docklands Light Railway, which operates over 24 miles in the East End of London, was introduced in 1987. That is the sort of technology that our new train operators should be thinking of when they start running trains and taking up new contracts. If they do this, it will mean that we can start lowering the costs of operating trains.

I have to say that the history of this is not very encouraging because trains were introduced on new lines on the London Underground, and such was the trade unions’ opposition that those proposals were dropped and they are still driven by operators. This is not encouraging, but we have to look at the whole situation. There will be a lot of opposition to introducing new technology, and the result will of course be that passengers pay much more for travelling by public transport systems operated by people who need not be there.

We have to think now about where technology is taking us in the future. How are the Government going to resolve the conflict with the trade unions, with which to date they have decided on enormous pay increases for driving operators, when in the near future we are possibly not going to need those people at all? Do the Government stand up for the passengers and lower fares, or will they stand up for the wages of train operators who are not actually needed because technology has taken over their jobs?

The same also applies to passenger aircraft—in most airports around the world, ground control can now take off and land virtually any large passenger aircraft. Of course, people feel much more reassured by having a pilot in the seat. On the other hand, I can see the low-cost airlines coming along quite soon and saying, “Well, if you travel in a pilotless aircraft, we will actually lower your fare”. People will then have to decide whether they are prepared to trust the technology.

The basic story still applies: the amount spent on research and development by the big-tech companies is so great that it makes anything that the Government can spend look like chicken feed. At the end of the day, they will iron out the technological problems, and the safety issues will be resolved. At that stage, we will want to see the dividend that comes with that: the cost of travel coming down. The Government will have to decide whether they back the trade unions or whether they want to see cheaper travel for customers.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

I will briefly respond to the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, and ask both him and the Minister some questions. I will not say that the recent BBC drama “Nightsleeper” should give us cause for alarm—the issues are very different—but the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, possibly the noble Lord, Lord Ranger, and I were heavily involved in the then Automated Vehicles Bill during its passage through your Lordships’ House earlier this year. Some of the questions I will ask now I asked in the debates on that Bill, too.

First, this is not just a question of having no driver, because there has been a push to remove from trains staff other than the driver, whether it is an old-fashioned-style conductor or a train manager. I wonder how on earth the emergencies that cannot be predicted, either by software or by people driving the train remotely, can be resolved. Should those emergencies on the line happen at very short notice and the train has to stop, how are people to get off? This is the point at which I start to talk about those who need assistance. If you do not have any staff on the train, how do you get people off who cannot clamber down and follow the side of the track? The reassurance of having staff on the train in that situation makes me feel confident that, if there were an emergency, I would be able to get off.

The other key role of staff on a train, whether a driver or train manager, is to help when things go wrong. That could include trying to handle people who are behaving very badly, sometimes breaking the law, by alerting British Transport Police. It might include times when assistance goes wrong, such as trains not stopping at volunteer stops. We still have those; there are some between Salisbury and Bristol, where you have to give advance notification if you want to stop at a particular station. As someone in a wheelchair, I would be in real trouble if the train did not stop—and there would be nobody I could notify. Also, if you arrive at a station where there is a planned stop and you were expecting to get assistance, but nobody is there, other passengers would not know how to get the ramp out of the train, and they would not have the keys to do it. I am very concerned about those circumstances. If there are thoughts about having automated trains, the practical side of how passengers interact, particularly vulnerable passengers, concerns me.

Secondly, the Docklands Light Railway is an interesting example, and we see similar driverless trains in many airports around the world. That is fine, but I have some concerns about the concept at this stage. If our railways—the actual rails and their surrounds—are built before the plans for automation, there will be consequences for driverless trains when trees fall down at the last moment and children run across the line. You cannot manage those circumstances without a driver who can pick up an alert, respond, tell passengers to brace themselves and let them know where they need to go for support. For me, this is not about unions; it is about passenger safety. My particular interest is making sure that those passengers—not just disabled passengers but many elderly passengers; look at the demographics—get support from a member of staff on the train.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I am not accustomed to making speeches on technological matters but, on this occasion, I feel I have some modest qualifications for doing so—although I must say in advance that I do so with a degree of trepidation, because nearly everything I know about driverless trains I have been taught by the Minister. I therefore sit in the uncomfortable position of being subject to not only his correction but his immediate correction the moment I sit down and he comes to respond.

It is possible to get oneself into a tizz about these things called driverless trains when what one is in fact discussing is signalling. When I first got involved in railways, I thought that signalling was a system where arms went up and down and red and green lights flashed, but that is all in the past. Modern signalling is, in effect, a huge computer brain that fundamentally drives the trains. It tells the trains when to go, when to stop and how fast to go in between. Its purpose is to maintain a safe distance between trains as they travel, taking account of the speed and the track’s condition and nature. It is specific to the track.

Although the noble Lord, Lord Snape, will find counterexamples—I am sure that he is right to do so—broadly speaking, it is safer to have the train driven by this great controlling brain than it is to have it driven by a human being. A large number of historical train accidents have been caused by driver inattentiveness. Indeed, in Committee on Monday, it was the noble Lord, Lord Snape, I think—it may have been another noble Lord—who drew attention to one cause of such accidents, driver tiredness, whereas the machine does not get tired. It knows what it is doing. It knows where every train is going and where it is in relation to every other.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, spoke of the person who remotely drives the train. There is not a person remotely driving the train; it is the great computer brain.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

From my experience on the then Automated Vehicles Bill, there is a person who watches various vehicles driving. If there is an issue, they will intervene. That is how reassurance was given, so it is not left only to the computer.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I was going to come to a point relating to that. I am sure that what the noble Baroness said is absolutely correct in relation to automated vehicles but, like automated planes, automated vehicles are very different from automated trains. An automated plane—indeed, any plane—must be 110% safe and known to be safe before it takes off, because if it develops a problem when it is in the air there is nothing you can do about it.

With an automated train, the approach to safety is totally different. Safety is based on fail-safe devices. If the computer brain sees that something is wrong—for example, if it loses a train on the system and does not know where it is—everything is brought to a stop. That is the solution. That is how you guarantee the safety of not only that train but the trains close to it. The trains further down the line are brought to a stop, which is of course not remotely possible when you try to apply a different technology to the air and to automated vehicles. That is the sort of system we are talking about. The level of automation that can be achieved is graded. Level 3 automation, as it is known, requires a driver to be present, although the driver is not actually driving the train.

My noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom referred to the Docklands Light Railway coming into operation in the 1990s. I think I am correct—here, I very much worry that I might have got this wrong and that the Minister will correct me—in saying that the Victoria line, which was introduced in the 1960s, was introduced with automated signalling at level 4. There was a driver in the cab, but they would arrive in stations reading the newspapers. This so disconcerted passengers that a stop had to be put to it and they were told that they could not read the newspaper while they were sitting in the cab, at least not while they were in or coming into a station.

So we know perfectly well that this can be done safely. We know that we can run trains much closer together and provide greater capacity if we have an automated system, because it is safer. That is why, if you go down to the Victoria line today—it benefits not from a 1960s signalling system but from a brand-new signalling system installed in the last few years—you will see the trains coming into the station so fast that the previous one hardly has time to get out before the next one arrives. If you had a driver driving that train, the headways between them would have to be much greater. By comparison, on the Piccadilly line, which, as I have mentioned on several occasions, has a signalling system so decrepit that it is hardly a signalling system at all, you can see how slowly the trains come into the stations. The driver has to conduct himself with great caution whereas, with automated signalling, they will come in faster and stop in exactly the right place. They do not have to make the human judgment that the driver has to make about stopping exactly on his mark; that is what he is meant to do, but it takes time.

I think that everybody who is involved in railways wants to head towards that; it is the direction we want to go in. The question then arises: if you have driverless trains with literally no driver in the cab, how are you going to handle the customers? First, as some people have said, there will be trepidation on the part of customers. I think that will be overcome. Even I have a degree of trepidation; I took some flights over the summer. Not many people realise that the pilot is already pretty redundant in most of the aeroplanes they are flying in. Conscious of this, I was thinking about it when I took off the other day, so trepidation is a factor.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, makes a much more serious point perhaps, which is that services are required for passengers in the train and in the event of an emergency. As I said, an emergency is likely to result in the train being stopped in the middle of nowhere, and possibly stopped long enough that passengers have to be disembarked. Who is going to do all that? Of course the train has to have people on it; it has to have staff on it. Although the Docklands Light Railway has no driver—which, as noble Lords probably know, allows children to sit up front and even adults to fulfil their childhood fantasies by sitting up front—even it has a member of staff on it to deal with the sort of eventualities referred to by the noble Baroness.

There is a sort of fantasy here. I depart slightly from remarks made by some of my Conservative colleagues—not here in your Lordships’ House but in other fora—that this will somehow free the railways from dependency on staff and, therefore, on the unions. It will not, of course, because those staff will have to be present even if they are not in the cab. They will probably be members of the RMT, too, which is not exactly freeing yourself from the trammels of the trades unions.

The general intention behind my noble friend Lord Hamilton’s amendment is an extremely good one. We should be moving, as far as we can, from level 3 to level 4. Over time, it is an inevitability, and the costs involved in doing so will have to be found. The increase in both capacity and safety that will arise from doing so will probably be worth 10 HS2s or HS3s or whatever we provide on the existing lines.

Knowing the Government’s intentions on this will be extremely helpful. Knowing how it will be afforded and prioritised in an entirely nationalised system is something that we would all like to know. I suspect, as on previous occasions, that the answer from the Minister will be that we will have to wait, that he is not going to tell us, that this is a very narrow, technical Bill, that all the goodies are coming down the track in 18 months’ time, and everything else. I hope he is taking account of the fact that the Committee is very concerned about this—that technological change has to be at the heart of the modernisation of the railways and that the Government are going to find the investment capacity to do so. It is a matter of priority and money. Can he tell us about it, please, when he stands up?

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Brinton]

17: Clause 2, page 2, line 23, at end insert—
“30ZA Statement of accessibility standards(1) When making a direct award under section 30(1A) the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a statement to the effect that they are of the view that such an award will comply with the accessibility standards.(2) The Secretary of State must prepare a statement of the standards that they propose to apply in assessing, for the purposes of subsection (1), that a public sector company meets the required level of accessibility.(3) The principles must in particular make provision for the accessibility of—(a) the service;(b) accommodation for individual journeys;(c) booking platforms and other interactive digital services and systems used in connections with journeys on the relevant franchise. (4) In preparing the statement under subsection (2) the Secretary of State must consult such persons as they consider appropriate, in particular disabled people.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment places a duty on the Secretary of State to make a statement to Parliament confirming they are of the view that making an award to a public sector company will meet certain accessibility standards.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and of the Accessible Transport Policy Commission. The first amendment in this group, Amendment 17, continues the debate that was started at Second Reading on the concerns over the provision of assistance services and trains for disabled passengers.

Also in this group are Amendments 27A, 38 and 39. On Amendment 38, which I support, I just want to point out that the disabled passenger card is very important to disabled people. Scope tells us that the average disabled household faces £975 a month in extra costs and that, after housing costs, the proportion of working-age disabled people living in poverty is 27%. That is higher than the proportion of working-age non-disabled people, which is under 20%.

Travel is a luxury for many, but if they want to buy a ticket in person, and there is no ticket office available at their station, they cannot use their disabled passenger pass with a ticket machine. This amendment talks about other key ticketing issues that we need to address. Amendment 27A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, is an amendment on ticketing but does not highlight these specific details that I find inconsistent and confusing. My view is that it may be helpful to have this detail in the Bill for the annual report, because the annual report is also a helpful route to transparency and accountability.

Amendment 39 would require the Secretary of State to establish an independent body to monitor the impact of the Act on passenger standards, and I welcome that too. I hope the Minister does as well.

Amendment 17 in my name—I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for adding their names to it—puts in the Bill a requirement for the Secretary of State to abide by the law in issuing a statement of accessibility standards and confirmation that a public sector company meets the required levels of accessibility. This is about not just the accommodation for individual journeys but the entire service, including booking platforms and any other digital service or system used.

It also includes toilets, which I know appear later on, but let me just say on this subject that I spend my life sitting opposite open toilets because wheelchair spaces are always by the toilets. When they are not very clean, it makes journeys every single day extremely unpleasant, but another effect is that if you are sitting in a wheelchair you become the toilet monitor when either there are people inside it or it is not working. The passengers look at you crossly as if it is your fault that they cannot get in. I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, understands what I am talking about.

Why is this amendment necessary? At Second Reading the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, when she introduced the Bill, spoke about services only in the context of cancellations and disruptions, and there was nothing about the actual experience of the passenger. In the context of Amendment 17, the passengers requiring assistance are not always disabled, by the way. As I said in the debate on the previous group, we have to recognise the demographic change in this country, and a lot of passengers will require assistance in the future because they are getting elderly.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, who, following my speech, in her winding speech said that

“there has been some improvement over the last few years—for example, the new two-hour booking window for assistance and the Passenger Assistance app”.—[Official Report, 7/10/24; col. 1894.]

Neither of those two things is an actual improvement for disabled passengers. Yes, very large amounts of money were spent on developing two apps, and the first is for passengers. When that was being consulted on, all the disability groups and individuals asked for the capacity to be able to buy their tickets at the same time, but it does not permit that.

Why is that important? For some journeys you have to book a seat—a literal seat—when you buy your ticket, for example from Trainline or from a train operating company that you start your journey with. I quite often do journeys from Watford to Euston, Euston to York or Euston to Edinburgh. If I do not go on to the LNER app, I have to get a ticket reserved via the West Midlands app. It is a seat that I cannot use. Anyone who travels on LNER regularly will know that, at peak hours, there are no seats available, yet there is one with a sign above it saying “reserved” that I cannot use. If I have time, I will find the train manager before I board the train and say, “By the way, I have G16 reserved. I am not going to be sitting there”. This is a software problem but, perhaps more importantly, it is a problem of Network Rail and others not listening to the needs of disabled people.

You then have to ring or email the train operating company for that leg of the journey and book your assistance separately. LNER tells me that I should use all the different apps for each leg of my journey, but the whole point of the app was that the passenger should have to enter only one thing. The total irony of this is that behind each of the train operating company apps is one single app. It is an absolute nonsense, and it is all because disabled people were ignored. The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, were she in here place today, would remind us that she and many other disability people have championed “Nothing about us without us” for many years, but the rail industry has not yet understood it.

--- Later in debate ---

While I share the desire for the authority to be set up as soon as possible, it is imperative that we get the detail right and have the opportunity to hear, especially from passengers, what the body should do. That is why I will defend the Government’s intention to use the time they have over the coming months to develop and consult on the PSA so that it can be a body that we can all be proud of. Rushing to set it up and not being properly prepared will not serve passengers in the way that we intend. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, we want a body that covers the whole of the passenger experience now. We need a bit of time to create it, and we need it to champion the long list of passenger experience standards from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, that it is impossible to disagree with. I would expect the PSA, alongside GBR, to champion the whole range of improvements in standards that he listed. I reassure noble Lords that we are not simply waiting; we have a list of innovations that we are delivering now. I will not make the House suffer by reading out a list, but I would say that we know that we should do more and I think this Bill will enable us to do it. I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to this group of amendments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, for his very helpful comments and look forward to hearing from his office about a meeting. I will not go into details, but his comment about poor apps resonates with every disabled user.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for her comments, not just for further experiences of being left on trains but for her key point that nothing seems to change. My noble friend Lady Scott was right to say that this is all about the culture of the organisations in the TOCs. The issue is the culture at the top, not the culture of the staff whom we see face to face, and it is important to recognise that.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, for his excellent speech. He is right that all parties do agree on this issue, but why can we not get any change? A new station opened at Thanet Parkway in July last year. Not only do you need lifts to get up to it, but you do not have level boarding and it is not staffed all day. How, in 2023, was that allowed to happen? Pre-pandemic, there was a pilot for level boarding at Harrow & Wealdstone; it was abandoned because the train operating companies could not agree on an order of coaches to make sure that the level part was available.

My noble friend Lady Randerson was right that we have to focus on the needs of passengers, and my amendment in this group focuses on those who need assistance. We need this amendment. We have to be able to hold train companies to account. My problem is that my amendment is for the future; it is not for now. If there are any further delays, we will see yet again no further change. I ask the Minister: what change can we start having in the current poor standards of the train operating companies?

I remind the Committee that bus regulations were transformed in 2016 when a disabled passenger took a case to the Supreme Court. Perhaps we need the same thing to happen now; I hope not. We will return to this on Report but, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 17 withdrawn.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Baroness Brinton Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 6th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Brinton]

8: Clause 2, page 2, line 23, at end insert—
“30ZA Statement of accessibility standards(1) When making a direct award under section 30(1A) the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a statement to the effect that they are of the view that such an award will comply with the accessibility standards.(2) The Secretary of State must prepare a statement of the standards that they propose to apply in assessing, for the purposes of subsection (1), that a public sector company meets the required level of accessibility.(3) The principles must in particular make provision for the accessibility of—(a) the service,(b) accommodation for individual journeys, and(c) booking platforms and other interactive digital services and systems used in connections with journeys on the relevant franchise. (4) In preparing the statement under subsection (2) the Secretary of State must consult such persons as they consider appropriate, in particular disabled people.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment places a duty on the Secretary of State to make a statement to Parliament confirming they are of the view that making an award to a public sector company will meet certain accessibility standards.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as vice-chair of the Accessible Transport Policy Commission. I start by thanking the Minister for meeting with myself and the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Randerson, last week, for the very constructive discussions about issues relating to passenger assistance and support for disabled passengers, and for the other meeting with my Lib Dem colleagues and myself to discuss the Bill more broadly.

Before I speak to my amendment, I want to say that I support Amendment 11 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, which requires the Secretary of State to consult appropriately when awarding a public sector contract in order to encourage more services to be operated by devolved authorities.

Turning to my Amendment 8, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Holmes of Richmond, for signing it. It places a duty on the Secretary of State to make a Statement to Parliament confirming that they are of the view that an award made to a public sector company will meet certain accessibility standards. The Minister has tabled Amendment 15, which puts in legislation for the first time that public sector companies providing train services under Section 30 of the 1993 Railways Act are subject to the public sector equality duty, and I thank him for that.

One of the current issues is that it is not clear what is required by law, whether a train company is publicly owned or not. That has resulted in inconsistent standards and services. I thank all noble Lords, not just those who have taken part in the Bill but others who have spoken to me outside the Chamber, who have commented on the experiences of disabled Peers, including the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson—and myself. The fact is that our experience is not unusual, and many disabled people report disrupted or poor services daily. People are surprised when we say what has happened, but it is actually the daily experience of many disabled people.

In Committee, the Minister said:

“I was going to list a range of areas where things need to change, but I am embarrassed to do so because so many speakers in this debate have listed them themselves”.


He went on to say:

“All I can do is acknowledge that I have heard the list quite clearly. We know that we need to do better, and it hurts me that the public service that I care about fails so regularly to look after people in the way that it ought to”.—[Official Report, 23/10/24; col. 694.]


I thank the Minister for that. I repeated it because I have some questions, although not on that statement but on the detail that will follow. First, can he clarify that the public sector equality duty does not already apply to the existing OLR train operating companies? If it does not, will the current OLR train operating companies have to comply with it immediately after the Bill is enacted, but before the rail reform Bill is passed? If the answer is yes, how will that work with the next stage of consultation on a stronger assistance service?

Following remarks made in an earlier group today, can the Minister explain the next steps to consult with the disabled community about the new universal assistance standards he wanted to correct in the list of problems? It included too many apps, a lack of level boarding, broken lifts, unsuitable rolling stock, and the lack of staff on trains and at stations, which he and many others referred to in Committee. How does that fit in with the publication of the rail reform Bill, be that later this year or early next year?

--- Later in debate ---

I confirm that, as we work with the bodies that will be impacted by the proposed passenger standards authorities—the Office of Rail and Road, Transport Focus and the Rail Ombudsman—we will look at any opportunities to improve things for passengers in the short-term before the passenger standards authority has formally launched. I met Transport Focus yesterday on just that matter. I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, in tabling Amendment 8, I was very aware of standing on the shoulders of giants, including Transport for All and many disabled campaigners over the years.

I thank the Minister for putting the public sector equality duty in the Bill. This is a big step forward. I thank him also for the commitments that the Government have made, albeit for the future. There is a real spirit here to make sure that things start to change. For the first time since I joined your Lordships’ House in 2011, I feel encouraged that we have been heard and understood. Amendment 15 is, we hope— I am not going to get Churchillian about this—the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning, or something like that. It will be the end of the current poor levels of assistance for passengers. I know that the Minister understands that there is much detail to be worked out to make that real change happen.

On that basis, I am happy to withdraw my Amendment 8. I look forward to seeing Amendment 15 become part of the Bill and to us seeing more detail in due course. The future higher standards of assistance services will transform the lives of disabled rail passengers. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.