Carer’s Allowance: Repayments

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Monday 29th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how they plan to assist family carers who are required to make repayments of the Carer’s Allowance plus additional fines or penalties.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I start my reply by paying tribute to the millions of unpaid carers across this country who make such a vital contribution every day. We are taking urgent action to identify what has happened and why, so we can resolve this issue. We carefully balance our duty to the taxpayer to recover overpayments and ensuring that repayment of debt is affordable and sustainable, working with anyone who is struggling with their repayment terms.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I welcome the noble Baroness to the Front Bench and thank her for her reply. I am delighted to hear that the Government are reviewing this. At the moment, these unpaid carers get £81.90 a week and must be caring for at least 35 hours a week, which means a maximum of £2.34 per hour. They must also be earning under £151. Is this really the value that our country places on people looking after loved ones? Even worse, over 130,000 are being investigated, with their benefits being clawed back, being fined thousands of pounds, plunged into debt and having to sell their homes. It has also emerged that the DWP has written to people, threatening them with fines that may increase if they appeal. I know that the noble Baroness would not wish this to be happening; none of us in this House would. Will she consider suspending investigations and new demands pending a proper review of these practices?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and also for her numerous contributions on this issue in debates, some of which I have been lucky to take part in over the last few months. Today is an important day, obviously, since Carers UK has published its report this morning, which is what I presume has prompted the Question. I am very pleased to announce to the House that, as we speak, the Minister of State for Social Security and Disability is meeting representatives from Carers UK and other related organisations, as well as—most importantly, given their absolute, central part in this whole situation—meeting with carers themselves. It is important that we wait to hear the outcome as we anticipate the review that the Minister of State is putting into place, so that we can swiftly move on to address the issues that the noble Baroness has brought up.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

My Lords, it is good news indeed that the Minister of State is meeting with Carers UK. I am sure many of your Lordships will have seen the shocking report that came out this morning about the prosecution—indeed, I might say persecution—which some unpaid carers are suffering. The real problem is the so-called cliff edge: the minute you go one pound or even one penny over the limit, the debts start to mount up. About five years ago, we were assured that this problem was being dealt with, so I am very glad to note that it is being dealt with now. But I hope that we will never lose sight of the fact that carers want to have paid work as well as their unpaid work; it helps them emotionally, it helps them financially and it helps them in the future. We must never lose sight of the fact that we must encourage carers to have paid work as much as we can, without these kinds of barriers which have been put up.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My noble friend Lady Pitkeathley has been working on this issue for many years, and I know we all commend the extraordinary work she has done on this. I know she will be involved in the review that takes place as we go forward. We have to introduce real understanding and compassion and also look at the ways we can improve the circumstances that carers are in today. This is an incredibly complex area, and we need to do everything to make sure the department’s communications are as transparent and clear as possible and to give support to carers so they do not get into difficulties as they go forward.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, when I was piloting my Carer’s Leave Bill through your Lordships’ House, I became ever more aware of how perilous the economy of many carers’ families is. My right honourable friend Ed Davey in the other place has been campaigning very hard on the needs of carers, not least on this issue. Does the Minister agree that this is not the carers’ fault? The error lies with the DWP, and it is entirely inappropriate that carers should be fined for the DWP’s error.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

Again, I thank the noble Lord for his work on this agenda. I very much recognise the sentiment behind his comments. I think the important thing is that we allow the review to take place at speed, to really get to grips with and understand the problems and complexities that carers are facing, so we can come up with a way forward that is fair and sustainable for the people who have been caught up in this problem and make sure we have policies going forward to make sure it cannot happen again.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, this is a complex matter—as we have been told several times—but, surely, underneath it is something very simple. It is most unlikely that these people are going to be gaming the system, and proportionality of recovery has to be the core of the response.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I think it is absolutely right that proportionality is at the centre of this. We have to respect DWP officials to make sure that they look at the way this is handled and make sure every single case is dealt with fairly and in a sympathetic way. We have already heard today about the cliff-edge principle, which has already caused difficulties for carers, and we need to make sure, as far as we possibly can, that they have all the information, as well as regular review of their cases, to make sure people do not fall into this position again.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, we were all moved by the campaign of the leader of the Liberal Democrats on carers and caring during the election campaign. I seem to recall there was a suggestion that a Labour Government would introduce a royal commission on social care and caring. What has happened to that idea? Unless we can get all-party agreement—we have had endless reports about this—and some action, this problem will continue. It is central to dealing with the problems of the health service, which the Government have said is broken.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I think it is appropriate that we wait. We are only very shortly into this Government. Let us wait for the relevant departments to announce how it is going to take this forward. I look forward to his input when the work in progress is announced.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome what the Minister had to say, and I welcome my noble friend to her new role. She talked of a review. The review has to look at carer’s allowance in the round. The scandalous treatment of those affected by the earnings rule is just the tip of an iceberg of problems associated with carer’s allowance. Can she give us an assurance that the longer-term review will look at these fundamental problems with the allowance?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I also thank my noble friend for the work she continues to do in this area. It is fundamental that we start looking at the areas that have come right to the surface, bring the relevant people together, look at everything in the round and make sure we do not leave any stone unturned and continue to make sure we have the fairest, most transparent system that we possibly can. Let us not forget that we are talking about some of the most vulnerable in our society and the people who care for them; this has to be at the front and centre of all our responses going forward.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Obviously, this review will take some time. Can the Minister say what will happen to the individual carers who are in this perilous state during this time before the review is completed?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

The noble and learned Baroness raises a pertinent point. The department is absolutely on this case, and work will be ongoing to give the maximum support that it possibly can, to make sure that people get the best access to information so that they can make decisions and keep the department informed if their circumstances change. We have to understand that some people are incredibly stretched with their caring responsibilities, and they need support and help to move forward.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Opposition join the noble Baroness in her ministerial capacity today in recognising the importance of the work of carers. I stood at that Dispatch Box many times and did just that, and we have not resiled from that at all. The last Government recognised that overpayments were happening and in fact increasing, and action was taken by gaining real-time information from HMRC so that carers who were in the position of beginning to overclaim could be contacted quickly and we could try to avoid it becoming a massive issue. We also helped those who found themselves in that position by either suspending their repayments until they were in a position to repay or indeed elongating the amount of time that would be given them to pay. Carers also receive an annual statement, and so they have an opportunity to make comments and representations to the DWP to talk about it. Can the noble Baroness say what we are going to continue to do to make sure that we get hold of the problem sooner rather than later, where it exists? On many occasions, I was lobbied and questioned in quite a lot of detail by people who asked whether the Government would write off these overpayments. I now take the opportunity, in the nicest spirit, to ask whether His Majesty’s Government will write off these repayments, and whether any provisions have been made in the accounts to do so.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, for her comments today and for the immense amount of work that she has done in this area over many years. The questions she asks are, of course, right at the heart of why the review is necessary. The fact that measures were brought in by the previous Government, I think in recognition that some carers had fallen through the net, is to be noted. We cannot pre-empt what the review will say, but we also have to be mindful that everything we do is in the spirit of fairness, sustainability and affordability, and that we have a culture which encourages everyone involved to be treated with respect and given the support that they need through what can be extremely difficult times in their lives.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, it is wonderful to see the noble Baroness at the Dispatch Box and to listen to the way in which she is responding to this wide range of questions. I entirely agree that there has to be a review of the carer’s allowance because of the pathetic level and rigidity of the allowance. We can do something in the interim. The failure to actually inform carers that they have fallen behind is in fact a human problem; it is caused by the technology, but it can be addressed. However, I also urge the Government to look immediately at the notion of flexibility, to get rid of the cliff edge. I see no reason why this should not be made a priority, because it will make a huge difference to those women and men who are so stressed that this is the last straw for them. The evidence suggests that many of them are actually walking away from caring, which is the last thing we want; we want to support and celebrate them, not punish them.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend Lady Andrews for her sympathetic and direct comments on this issue. I know that she has been passionately involved in this area for many years. I was delighted to hear that the first meeting of officials and Ministers involves the carers themselves, which is important. We have to listen to the lived experience of people who are going through this whole change. For some people, it is dramatic and sudden—it is not something they anticipated—and we have to make sure that their voices are absolutely at the centre of the review, so that we can make informed decisions about where things have been failing and how we can improve them in the future.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her ministerial role. Is she aware that flexible working is often the only work that carers can undertake, and therefore managing this cliffhanger one month, when they are probably entitled to the full allowance the following month, is just too complicated? Will the Government consider stopping the clock on any further fines and penalties during the period of this review?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. As I have said all the way through, it is absolutely fundamental that we treat this issue with fairness for everybody involved. She raises the particularly interesting area of expenses for those who go out to work, and how we can weave them in to make sure that people do not suffer financially. There are so many issues to bring to bear with this and I look forward to hearing the outcome of the first discussions today so that can have an informed debate in this place to take matters forward.