Baroness Andrews
Main Page: Baroness Andrews (Labour - Life peer)My Lords, I have spoken only about twice on this Bill but I must declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
I support the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes. She has been a doughty campaigner on leasehold. Over the years several of us in the Chamber, including the noble Baroness who has returned to us today and, I think, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, have tried to grapple with the issue of leasehold. The legality of it is incredibly complex and the Labour Government tried to do something about it. I remember spending hours on the last leasehold reform Bill, and some of the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, has talked about today came forward in that Bill. At the time, we said that we were not happy about some aspects of it but we really needed to look at what was happening and review it over time.
I appreciate that a review of leasehold legislation is probably something that the Government do not want to go near. It is incredibly complex but, given that a lot of building has gone on in London and a lot of the new flats are leasehold, this is an area that we need to look at. Because it is so complex, some leasehold landlords can use the legislation to disadvantage leaseholders—sometimes financially and sometimes making them powerless to do anything about what goes on in their building. This is an important area and, as I said, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, because she has been a doughty campaigner on it over the years. I recognise that these amendments relate to matters that the Government probably do not want to look at, but I share her view that they really need to look at least at the issues that she has raised today. They need to be reviewed and revisited.
My Lords, how lovely it is to see the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, back in her place. It is really great to see her.
I was indeed one of the Ministers who, on a previous occasion, had to deal with the subject matter of Amendment 102. It is a difficult issue and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, on her resilience in raising it. It is extremely important, not least as regards those blocks of flats where the owners have either bought their flats outright or have bought them under the right-to-buy scheme and then suddenly, to their total surprise, find themselves landed with enormous bills. It was not unusual for there to be a charge of £30,000—for example, for putting in a lift. It was an extremely difficult issue and the noble Baroness is absolutely right that we wrestled with it and discussed it with all manner of agencies, leasehold organisations and so on. It was very difficult to find an equitable and affordable solution. The fact that it is still hanging around is a tragedy and I hope that the Minister and her team can show us some ingenuity. The proposition in Amendment 102 is very sensible. If people anticipated these sorts of bills, they might well be able to afford them.
With Amendment 101, again, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. This is an absurd situation and the problem is growing. Most people living in leasehold blocks do not know that this is the situation and are therefore completely baffled as to why it is impossible to get anything done. So, if we are to have regard to the reality of the housing situation in London, this is something that has to be addressed. It may not be possible to do so in this Bill but maybe there are other Bills in the pipeline, and maybe it will be possible for the department to come back with something creative on both these issues. I hope so.
My Lords, I support this group of amendments and, in so doing, I declare my interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and, more particularly, as a landlord from time to time, with members of my family, of both shorthold and long leasehold tenants.
Dealing with the first point in Amendment 101, I say from my experience as a practising chartered surveyor that this is a potent area for problems, and I will give perhaps a couple of examples. The first is that for many of these blocks of flats, both large and small, there are a significant number of absentee long leaseholders, so that the occupants of the building are under assured shorthold tenancies or similar short-term occupations. The occupants, because of the nature of their short-term interest, do not really care too much about what happens to the fabric of the building—that is outside the scope of what is of interest to them. The superior landlord, the long leaseholder, is very often absent and equally disengaged from the process. Therefore, there tends to be, as I have come across before, a small proportion of those who are long leaseholders and residents who find themselves unable to do the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, has alluded to.
It gets worse, because of course the right to manage is just that, and it is circumscribed in that way. But what if the process of management means making alterations to a heating system that require you to knock a hole through the outside wall, which is part of the freehold, and which therefore go beyond the strict terms of “management”? As the noble Baroness said, if you have a truculent freeholder, that is a potent source of problems in terms of getting essential works done and making sure that the premises as a whole remain fit for purpose.
I have witnessed over many years the number of measures to try to strengthen the position of long leaseholders in terms of their collective rights of enfranchisement, their individual rights to extend a lease and their right to the collective management of their block. That is all mired in this split between the ownership—ownership of the fabric of the building—and the rights of the leaseholder, meaning the rights of use and perhaps extending to internal, non-structural partitions such as the floorboards, the ceiling boards, the internal plaster finishes of the walls and perhaps the odd window and door. When you are dealing with the management of a property, you have to take a holistic view if you are going to get it right, because all these things are part and parcel of that. As we have tried to dissect “leasehold” from “freehold”, we have run into a whole series of problems of our own making. It would be nice to say that we would come up with a different type of tenure altogether but I know that that has been tried and it seems to have run on to the rocks. At any rate, I encourage the Government to take a close look at Amendment 101 because this issue is causing grinding irritation to the reasonable aspirations to manage a building.
On Amendment 102—the sinking fund for repairs—I fully understand what the noble Baronesses, Lady Gardner and Lady Maddock, said. A roof may need to be renewed every 50 or 60 years, or, if it is a flat roof, every 25 years; a heating system may need to be renewed every 25 years; and there are other things that may have longer discounted life expectancies of one sort or another. If you have buildings with differential tenure, it is axiomatic that the freeholder, or the person responsible for the management and collecting of money to carry out certain work, may have a series of different objectives. If they are assured shorthold tenancies where the tenants are not responsible for contributing to a sinking fund of some sort, that is one thing, but there may be other types of occupier on less than long leasehold who would be so responsible. As the noble Baroness pointed out, when the buyer of a long leasehold is in this situation, it is essential to know that robust processes are in place for procuring that management and that it does not turn up, as I have seen so many times, all in one go. This could be toxic in terms of the transaction of properties because, if there is a rolled-up liability for large capital sums on repairs, a savvy purchaser of a long leasehold interest will certainly be well advised, as I have often been asked, to look into what lurks in the future expenditure, if that information can be found. Very often, one cannot easily find that information because it is with some other body such as the freeholder’s managing agent.
My Lords, my noble friend has done the House a service in identifying what is at the very least something of a confusion and by quoting various paragraphs from reports and policy statements. There may even be a contradiction in the policy. As my noble friend and the noble Lord have said, the whole justification for the policy was that we faced a housing crisis of such proportions that a new fast-track approach to commandeering brownfield sites needed to be introduced through permission in principle. In my view, that breaks most of the rules for decent planning and healthy communities, but it was justified because of the scale of the housing developments that are so urgently needed.
Our contention has been that this is reflected in later amendments on sustainability, for example, and that yesterday’s mistakes in terms of the awful housing estates that were built without any thought being given to what communities needed to thrive should not be repeated. Therefore, proper attention, full information and provision should be made to ensure that housing developments, as planned, are served properly by infrastructure and green space. That has been much of our concern at previous stages of the Bill. There was no indication that these could be anything other than housing-led, so the possibility that has been raised by paragraph 36 of the Select Committee report, which has been quoted, is extremely significant. What was in the Minister’s mind, or that of the department, when this was put forward? Was it zones of massive DIY retail stores? What is meant by that paragraph?
This goes against the grain of good planning in many respects, as I have said. It is zoning, and it is zoning in its worst form. It is not the zoning that was recommended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he referred to it. The model he had in mind, I think, was as in parts of Europe, where zonal plans are extremely detailed, they are contested, they are democratic and they are effective. But these plans will not be like that because PIP does not provide for that. These plans do not allow for the high-level speculative, off-plan development that is currently seen in England; for example, through appeals. I believe that permission in principle will work properly only if we consider the full range of planning considerations before the key in-principle decision is made. That seems merely logical, and we have argued that consistently on this side of the House. To introduce confusion such as this at this stage of the debate is very serious. I hope the Minister will be able to clarify her intention.
My Lords, I did not intend to contribute to this debate but, having seen the amendments and heard how the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, introduced them, I will say a word or two. I draw noble Lords’ attention to my interests in the register, as I have done on previous occasions when speaking to the Bill: I am chair of the Cambridgeshire Development Forum.
We shall go on to discuss permission in principle, of which I am very much in favour. However, Amendment 102D would insert the word “brownfield”, and so restrict permission in principle to brownfield land. That is not what the Government intended and, as the Government have made quite clear in their amendment that says what the qualifying documents are, it clearly extends beyond brownfield land. Nor did I think from previous debates in Committee that it was the intention of the party opposite simply to restrict it to brownfield land. However, as the Members opposite are proposing to amend Clause 136, perhaps they do not support permission in principle at all.
Amendment 102E, which would change the wording to “land for housing”, seems to contradict the idea of housing-led development. If you can grant permission in principle only for housing-led development for “land for housing”, you have created a contradiction in the first subsection of the clause, such that it is only for housing, even though it may be “housing-led”. Amendment 102E seems defective.
I am against Amendment 102C, not because the Government do not want it to be housing-led development, but because if in the primary legislation we put “housing-led development”, we would have to define it there. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made it clear that it could be defined in all sorts of ways: the definition could apply to a very small number of houses in a large mixed-use development or to a large number of houses with very modest additional development. How it is defined matters. If one puts into primary legislation at the top of the clause, “housing-led”, but does not define it anywhere, it will be defined only in the Government’s subsequent guidance. However, because it is in the primary legislation, the interpretation in that guidance would be subject to judicial review as to whether it satisfies the argument that it is housing-led. That is a recipe for delay: each application would be subject to judicial review as to whether it satisfies the primary legislation.
The point is that the Government, quite rightly, since it will be a matter of detail, make clear in new Section 59A(8) to be inserted into the Town and Country Planning Act that guidance will be issued. Clearly, given the nature of the fine distinctions that need to be made about what housing-led development looks like, it will be for the Government in that guidance to set that out. These amendments should therefore be resisted.
My Lords, I apologise to the House because I have just made a statement that was not true. The Government do intend for it to be by negative procedure.
Putting something in the Bill does not allow the same flexibility as something being in secondary legislation. Moreover, we are currently consulting on the definition of “housing led”. It is important for us to set out the definition of what constitutes “housing-led development” in secondary legislation.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee advised the Government not to make policy while consultation was ongoing, which the Minister is now doing. The definition of “housing led” is clearly so liable to raise confusion that it should surely be on the face of the Bill
My Lords, that is why we are reluctant to place something in the Bill while consultation is ongoing. I do not know whether we agree on that point for different reasons, but I shall let noble Lords further intervene.
My Lords, the Minister has kindly explained the changes which are to be made following the amendment that I moved in Committee. At that point I had the advice of the Royal Town Planning Institute, and I remain grateful for that. I am also grateful to the Minister for the changes that have been made, which seem to be entirely appropriate. I just want to express my thanks to the Minister for her willingness to clarify the matter.
No doubt there will be other contributions on the other amendments, but the vote we just had is very important because it defines clearly that permission in principle relates to housing-led development. When I look at the amendments I have difficulty finding the reference to “housing-led”; I cannot find it. Therefore, the doubt we expressed in debating the previous group remains. I hope, with that position having been made clearer by that vote, that we might enter some discussions about this. Clearly, it will go to the other place, but I hope that the Government might see that there really is a need to ensure that permission in principle is housing-led and that that is in the Bill.
My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 107ZZB in this group, which is a sort of clause stand part amendment. The Minister has tried, very graciously and well, to address some of the problems we have with permission in principle in practice. I appreciate that and I appreciate the time she spent talking to us and exchanging information. Unfortunately, I do not think that anything addresses the fundamental flaw of permission in principle. I do not want to labour the point I made both at Second Reading and in Committee, but I will put a few things on the record at this stage as to why, both in principle and in practice, it will not do what she says she wants it to do and what we all would want the planning system to do, which is to introduce greater certainty in the whole process for developers, local authorities and housebuilders.
I think all noble Lords around the Chamber agree that it is a basic principle of rational planning that principle and detail are directly related because they inform and guide each other, and they determine the final planning judgment. That is the system we have now, when the right knowledge comes forward at the right point in the decision, so that everybody knows what is predictable and certain about the site and development proposed. That allows local people to understand and respond to the impact that the development will have on their living space. The system is not perfect, but neither is it the cause of the delays in housebuilding that have caused the present crisis. Those delays are much more to do with finance and access to land than they are with systemic problems with the planning system.
I agree that the NPPF has made a real difference to the way planning is done and it achieves an excellent balance between protecting development and enabling it. My concern is that permission in principle drives a wedge through the whole process by dividing the three fundamental principles of permission in principle and the rest, which is rather ludicrously described as “technical details” when we are talking about fundamental things that make a site, a development or a community work. It is everything—from infrastructure to the use of materials, to spatial relationships, to public space—that makes a place worth living in. If things are wrong, undiscovered or unanticipated at that stage, or simply do not work, permission in principle cannot be overturned. It seems illogical and deeply flawed because permission in principle puts all the balances at risk. It raises risks, rather than reduces them. That is not likely to speed up housebuilding. I am not being perverse; I am genuinely concerned that it will not have the positive effect that we all want.
If in the present system there is an overload of information at the early stages of decision-making, as the Government have said at so many stages, I feel fairly certain that this could have been addressed in different ways. Other ways could have been found to manage information, rather than relegating it to a subordinate stage of decision-making. As I have said, when we do have that information we will be unable to overturn the permission in principle. That is the fundamental problem referred to by all the professional planning bodies. It is turning up now in the 850 responses that the Minister has received to the consultation. There is genuine consistency across the planning profession.
I am arguing for a chance to think again, because PIP creates unnecessary risks. It creates the risk that high-level plans cannot be overturned, even if subsequent details clearly indicate the unsuitability of a site or the poor performance of the proposal. It is imperative that a proposal is permissible only if it is in line with the NPPF. I am pleased that the Minister has given me several assurances on that. I hope that they will prove robust, because the alternative will be JRs and court investigations. We do not want to see that.
As I have said, if the bottlenecks in the current finance and land-banking arrangements were to be addressed, as the Select Committee on the future of the built environment suggested, and if local authorities were encouraged to plan properly for age-related demography and needs and could build up their capacity to deal with the planning choices more fluently and expertly—we will come on to that in a later amendment—we would be able to deal more successfully with the housing crisis we face. My fear is that PIP will not achieve its objectives and could do some considerable harm.
My Lords, I have two amendments in this group which deal with slightly different issues. The first is an amendment on the consultation on technical details. I have retabled this amendment, which I laid in Committee, because I felt that the explanation the Minister offered was rather elliptical and because there is now emerging evidence that expert and civic groups which have already responded to the consultation are seriously concerned about this. I want to give the Minister an opportunity to put her thoughts on the record.
The amendment would, in effect, make it compulsory for local authorities to hold a consultation at the second and technical stage of PIP before planning permission was awarded. My argument was then, and it remains, that it is often only at this stage, when the details of the site development are released, that local people really play their part in determining what is best for them and what would really work. That can be anything from the nature of local materials to the location of health centres or shops.
The Minister has written very helpfully to me and I am very grateful. I would like her to expand, on the record, on what she said:
“The idea is that local authorities will have consulted both statutory agencies and the community at the permission in principle stage”.
I find the phrase “The idea is…” rather worrying. Surely we should have something more at this stage than what sounds like wishful thinking. It is important to understand that argument, because her assertion underpins the reasons spelled out in her letter as to why there will be no required consultation at the technical details stage. She goes on to say:
“When a subsequent application for technical details consent is received we consider that the local authority will therefore be in a good position to determine what further engagement is appropriate at this stage. This could make for a more efficient approach and avoid unnecessary duplication”.
The fact is that the consultation papers I have seen suggest that this has gone down very badly with those who count. The Minister quotes Civic Voice, for example, which carries the experience of civic societies throughout the country. What Civic Voice says in its response is:
“While we agree that PIP for allocated sites should be consulted upon through the local and neighbourhood plan processes, we strongly disagree with the proposal that local authorities will not be required to consult with the community and others on applications for technical details consent. It is likely that there will be important matters still to be considered at this stage that affect communities and they should, therefore, be entitled to submit representations. The reality is that it is not just the principle of development that can cause concern to communities and others but the layout, design and relationship with development. This will be the first opportunity for communities to see what the proposed development will look like”.
That is extremely relevant and very true. That is also the reaction, significantly, of the London Forum of Amenity and Civic Societies, the TCPA and Historic England. I read only four consultation responses instead of 850, but I have a reasonable idea that that view would be echoed by many more. Civic Voice advocates quite simply that an application for technical details consent should be subject to the normal consultation procedures for a standard planning permission. The fact is that the local voice in local decision-making is getting rather faint. That worries me, and, I think, many noble Lords. I ask the Minister for reassurances that the expert group on local plans will not reduce even further the right of local people to participate in local decisions.
The Minister told me in her letter that she would consider my concerns about this approach, together with the responses to the consultation, before finalising the necessary regulations and guidance. That is extremely important and very helpful news. However, I press her to go a little further. On a related point, I doubt that any of her consultees agree that cutting down the time for consultation from eight to five weeks—which is also proposed—is sensible. Frankly, this gives the average parish council hardly time to meet before it has to produce its consultation response, bearing in mind that most of them meet once a month. Therefore, I seek assurances from the Minister on that. For a start, will she place in the Library a breakdown of the responses to the consultation on the specific point about consultation itself, because that is really important? She will know that the role and the plausibility of consultation is something to which the scrutiny committees of this House return time and again for criticism. It is important to validate that this is a credible consultation process and that people have been listened to. Therefore, can I have an assurance on the record that if the weight of responses from those expert and community organisations reject the idea that local authorities should not be obliged to hold a consultation at the technical details stage, this proposal will indeed be dropped and normal planning rules will apply? I will not press this to a vote this evening but I would be very grateful for some assurances along those lines.
I am very sad that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is not in his place because I feel quite isolated. I am sure that he would have a great deal to say on the involvement of local people. We miss him very much indeed. He is not here, sadly, but I know that this case resonates around the House. There are many instances in which the local voice and localism are at risk of being diminished in the context of planning. In the longer term, I am sure that it is much wiser to listen to local people.
I turn now to my Amendments 107ZA to 107ZD. In Committee, I tabled two amendments which were intended to identify—in short—some of the hazards that would flow from the creation of PIP and the splitting of the process into two, and to reflect on some of the damage that might be done and some of the unintended consequences. I spoke about archaeology because that is a very acute example. Archaeology is not an exception, as the Government seem to argue, but is the predictable and likely victim of collateral damage in a situation where decisions are taken without full knowledge of what is under a site. New and unanticipated archaeological discoveries are made every day—witness the magnificent Roman villa discovered in Wiltshire last week, which people had no idea about and which may turn out to have international significance in terms of the extent of the Roman Empire and the villa’s great wealth and so on. It is very important.
In the existing planning system, the norm has been for many years to carry out pre-determined archaeological investigations. It is a familiar process and it works well. That is swept aside by permission in principle and is not even required at the second technical details stage. In the consultation, the Council for British Archaeology simply said the following to the Government, which I want to put on the record:
“If Government wishes to avoid re-visiting ‘in principle decisions … at multiple points in the process’ … it must fully recognise and address the corollary, namely that in order to avoid re-assessment at a later stage all necessary information which may affect the principle of development or its viability must be assessed before permission in principle is granted (and, with regard to archaeological issues, this should be specifically recognised in legislation and stated in policy)”.
One of the things I suggest the Minister might consider doing is meeting the Council for British Archaeology and the Chartered Institute for Archaeologists face to face to discuss their concerns. She might also explicitly endorse the policy set out in paragraph 128 of the National Planning Policy Framework and ensure that, where it is felt to be necessary, an archaeological site investigation could be made as part of the conditions attached to technical consent. It would be helpful to have that endorsement. Perhaps she could give me an answer this evening or write to me before Third Reading.
My Lords, I voice my thanks, again, for the time taken by noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, in trying to get right this aspect of the legislation and ensuring that permission in principle is as effective as possible. In Committee, I outlined the rigorous process of consideration and engagement that would be followed before granting permission in principle. In that context, I highlighted that I thought a situation where no scheme could be delivered in line with the permission in principle agreed on site, owing to unforeseen circumstances discovered at the technical details consent stage, would be highly unlikely. The noble Baroness presses me to give examples and I cannot get this example from my mind: it is another king in a car park, but where the whole car park is made unsuitable for development and not just a part of it, which can be allowed for in certain circumstances.
I informed noble Lords in Committee that the Bill already makes provision for permission in principle granted on application to be revoked or modified by a local authority if it considers it expedient to do so in extremely rare circumstances. I also recognised that, in the case of PIP granted through a locally prepared plan or register, the Bill does not currently provide for revocation or modification in such instances and that I would reflect on the need to make such a provision. I therefore wholly welcome the amendments that the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, has tabled and strongly support their inclusion in the Bill. I also thank her for the way in which she has worked with me and officials in coming towards this stage. Amendments 107ZA, 107ZB, 107ZC and 107ZD will indeed enable local planning authorities to revoke or to modify the permission in principle granted by local plans or registers, where they consider it expedient to do so. Amendment 107ZD will also enable us to set out sensible compensation arrangements in these circumstances in secondary legislation. The amendments will extend the existing provisions that local authorities have to revoke or modify planning permissions to the permission in principle system. They will ensure overall consistency and provide an important final safeguard to address the rare and exceptional circumstances discussed in Committee, where this may be needed.
Amendment 107ZZA tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, will oblige every applicant to engage with the community on their proposals before they submit an application for technical details consent. I certainly applaud the intention to involve the community in the development of a detailed planning application. Indeed, the NPPF and our planning guidance stress the importance of applicant-led, pre-application engagement. However, the power in Section 61W of the Town and Country Planning Act, inserted by the Localism Act 2011, is currently being used only to ensure compulsory pre-application consultation for onshore wind development above an appropriate threshold. This is a targeted requirement to help ameliorate local community concerns about and perceptions of such projects. I understand that the noble Baroness has laid this amendment because she is keen to ensure effective consultation; I do not believe, however, that applying this requirement to all technical details consent applications is the right approach.
We have just finished consulting on an approach that would give local authorities the discretion to consult further at technical details stage, where they consider it appropriate. We consider this a more locally led and efficient approach to consultation that will minimise unnecessary duplication between the permission in principle and technical details consent stages. The noble Baroness asked me about the expert responses to the consultation. I understand that we have received 150 responses. The noble Baroness asked if we would place them in the Library; I am very willing to do that.
May I just correct the noble Baroness? I thought there were 850 responses. That is not my main point—I wanted to ask whether she could lay an analysis of the consultation responses to the specific point about consultation on technical consents stage. My reading of a handful of responses—but important ones—showed that they are all very seriously worried that there will not be a requirement for local authorities to consult at that stage.
I apologise to the noble Baroness; maybe my writing is playing up. I accept that that if there were 850 responses, there were 850 responses and my writing is possibly wrong. The Government will of course analyse the responses carefully and engage further, as appropriate.
Is the noble Baroness saying, on that basis, that she can assure me that if the weight of opinion—by which I mean community and expert opinion—is that this is not a good idea, they will simply revert to the normal planning requirements for proper consultation?
My Lords, I totally admire the noble Baroness for the way she is pressing me on this. At this stage, given that I have not seen the outcomes, I do not that I can make a commitment. But we will certainly analyse the results carefully and engage further, as appropriate. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baroness feels free to withdraw her amendment.
I am happy to withdraw my amendment. I appreciate that it is not easy, not having seen the consultation, but my instinct tells me that we will get the results that I am anticipating and I hope it will make an impression on the department—you do not want to ride roughshod over local opinion. The Government have committed to localism and to supporting local authorities. I am very grateful for the support and wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, in this respect as well. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.