Baroness Keeley
Main Page: Baroness Keeley (Labour - Life peer)
Jo Swinson
I will give way to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) and then to the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), and then I will make some progress.
Jo Swinson
I said that I would give way to the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South and then make some progress, but I will be happy to take further interventions later.
Barbara Keeley
I thank the Minister for giving way; she is being generous with her time. As somebody who had a private Member’s Bill that was blocked last year by the guys on the Government back row, I have to say that this is unfortunate. My Bill was a valuable Bill which would have really helped carers and the identification of carers. This is also a valuable Bill which would help people who are in debt. It would be very helpful if the Minister would support its going into Committee, because that could help build a really good public campaign, which is what I intended to happen with my private Member’s Bill. It would be an absolute waste if she let her colleagues on the Government back row talk this Bill out.
Jo Swinson
I share the hon. Lady’s frustrations, having supported private Members’ Bills on Fridays in the past, such as the Climate Change and Sustainable Energy Bill proposed by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz). Ultimately, it got through and was enacted, but getting there was a painful process.
I hope that I will be able to reassure the House on the issue of protecting vulnerable people and taking action on their behalf. Significant action is already being taken. Today’s debate is helpful in raising the issue’s profile, so I thank the hon. Member for Sheffield Central for promoting the Bill, but there is a sticking point with regard to the independence of the FCA and its role as a regulator with real teeth that is able to set its own rules.
Cathy Jamieson
Indeed, and that is one of the points I wanted to make in response to what the Minister said. I know her to be someone who cares about what happens on this issue. To be fair, she has shown that since taking up her post, although I would not necessarily agree with everything she said this morning. Notwithstanding the fact that she said that she did not agree with the principle of the Bill, I suspect that, as an individual, she has some sympathy for what my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central is trying to do. That is why I am somewhat surprised that the Government seem to be responding by not allowing the Bill to proceed to Committee, where there would be the opportunity to explore some of the information in much greater detail.
Barbara Keeley
Was my hon. Friend as surprised as I was to hear the Minister say that our hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) should “withdraw” his Bill? If the Government choose not to support it, that is one thing; if the Minister chooses not to support it, that is another. However, there is no sense in which this excellent Bill should be “withdrawn” by the Member introducing it.
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. I, too, was slightly surprised to hear the Minister say that, because on the one hand she seemed to be engaging and listening to what people were saying—not only in this House, but externally—but on the other hand she was apparently closing down an opportunity to scrutinise the Bill in much more detail. I would be interested to see the Bill go into Committee so that we can look at some of those issues, particularly in relation to the FCA, where there might well be tensions. There might need to be some finessing, while other issues might need to be taken forward.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
I begin by referring hon. Members to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests—not, I am glad to say, because I am a payday lender, but because I am regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and am therefore involved in something that is relevant in the broadest sense.
It is always a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who is one of the most gripping speakers in this House. I am glad that he always speaks at sufficient length that his thoughts can be developed, which is invariably helpful to the deliberation on Bills. I was glad, too, that we agreed on the one point about Parliament regulating things rather than handing them out to random bodies. There is, however, one thing on which we disagree—his conclusion. I am going to say quite straightforwardly that I oppose this Bill. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) on introducing it, but I do not think it is the right answer to the problem. There are different answers to it, some of which I shall try to cover.
Let me start, however, by placing the problem in its historical context. The issue of usury, as the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) rightly called it, is one that goes back to the most ancient times. The Hittites, the Egyptians and the Phoenicians were all lending each other food, substances, bits and pieces and getting them back. It is always a pleasure to mention the Phoenicians because it is believed that Joseph of Arimathea brought Jesus himself to Somerset on a Phoenician trading vessel. It was quite near Bristol, so we never know whether our lord might have gone there, too. This is the ancient history of usury: it is almost as old a profession as the oldest profession; it is part of human nature to lend things and have them returned at interest.
Usury is an issue that has troubled theologians over the years. The Old Testament includes particularly strong statements against it. I shall quote only one, the first one from Exodus 22:25:
“If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest.”
Even in the Book of Exodus, limits are being set on the amount that may be charged on the repayment that is to come.
Barbara Keeley
Is the hon. Gentleman going to move on to the example of Jesus throwing the moneylenders out of the temple of Jerusalem?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Perhaps the hon. Lady refers to:
“You have made my Father’s house a den of thieves”.
I was not going to quote that because I thought it was so well known that it would be unnecessary to trouble the House with it. Interestingly, however, the money changers in the temple were changing ordinary Roman coinage into the special coinage used in the temple for buying sacrifices and so forth, and making a very healthy return on that. I am not quite sure that it is the same as usury, which is another reason why I was not going to mention that precise example. However, it is interesting that these issues have come up over the years.
The councils of the Church have considered the matter. At the council of Nicaea, the Church council that set out the Creed also decided that the clergy may not lend money at interest, and that interest may not be charged above a rate of 1% a month. The same issues were being discussed then—the rate of interest being charged and who may be involved in the process. The rather splendid Pope Sixtus V—I rather like somebody called Sixtus V; there seems to be some incongruity in it—said that charging interest was
“detestable to God and man, damned by the sacred canons and contrary to Christian charity.”
We see that these issues have been problematic for not just hundreds but thousands of years. They have been debated by theologians and looked at by economists.
The fundamental point is that there are people who have money to lend and people who want to borrow, and bringing the two together, when done in a suitable way, is beneficial to both sides. It makes it possible for people to spread payments, make investments and order their lives in a way that is convenient to them, and at the same time it makes a profit for the person on the other side of the transaction, who has excess capital to lend out. However, with that come difficulties and problems that Governments have sought to solve over generations.
At this point, I think it is relevant to quote the introduction to Henry VIII’s Act against usury, which shows the context of the problem. It states:
“Where before this Time divers and sundry Acts, Statutes and Laws have been ordained, had and made within this Realm, for the avoiding and Punishment of Usury, being a Thing unlawful, and of other corrupt Bargains Shifts and Chevisances, which Acts Statutes and Laws been so obscure and dark in Sentences, Words and Terms, and upon the same so many Doubts Ambiguities and Questions have risen and grown, and the same Acts Statutes and Laws been of so little Force or Effect, that by reason thereof little or no Punishment hath ensued to the Offenders of the same, but rather hath encouraged them to use the same.”
That, I fear, is why, in the end, I am not going to support the Bill. What happens is that Parliament legislates to rectify a problem but finds that what it legislates does not actually do that. Henry VIII’s Act was repealed within six years. It was against usury and also set a maximum rate on mortgages of 10% per annum. However, it did not work, because there are always people needing to borrow money and people willing to lend it to them. The question is how that is done, at what stage in the process and who is involved.
Having a source of borrowing within a regulated business system is preferable to loan sharks, who have been mentioned. We hear about “legal loan sharks”, and they may become illegal in some of their practices, but as far as I am aware Wonga, however bad a company it is, does not send people round with baseball bats. There seems to be a fundamental problem in legislating in a way that will push people in difficulties in that direction.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
I am pleased that there is a little time left for me to speak. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) for introducing a Bill that addresses a number of serious issues in respect of payday loans. It is clear from today’s debate that such loans are of concern to many hon. Members.
The Bill is important because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) said, we have a weak regulatory system for high-cost credit. Citizens Advice tells us that self-regulation of the payday loans sector has not worked. Since the introduction of the industry’s good practice customer charter in November 2012, Citizens Advice has run a survey to help people who have payday loans check whether their lender is sticking to the charter. The results show that the charter is not being met to a surprising degree. Payday lenders are failing to treat people fairly and are breaking 12 of the 14 promises laid out in the charter.
The Citizens Advice survey also shows that lenders are not making adequate affordability checks. I am glad that that problem has been referred to repeatedly in this debate. There are many examples of customers who get into financial difficulty not getting the help that they need. Some even find that the lenders, rather than helping them, are positively obstructive to their attempts to pay off their debts.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) talked about the millions of pounds that are being made in the payday loans market. That market is growing very quickly. In 2008-09, it was worth an estimated £900 million. Last year, it was worth between £2 billion and £2.2 billion. That big increase is a sign of the growing hardship in our communities.
I welcome the measures in the Bill to deal with the serious pitfalls that are experienced by large numbers of borrowers, which we have heard about today. It would deal with opaque interest charges, the use of continuous payment authorities to collect repayments regardless of the borrower’s financial circumstances and the key issue of advertising, which we have talked about. Young and vulnerable people are bombarded with a saturation level of adverts and texts promoting payday loans.
Lyn Brown
I was going to say more in my speech, but I wanted to keep it short so that my hon. Friend and others could get in before the end of the debate. I was going to speak about those pernicious television adverts with the little old puppets who wander around. They just look so cosy. In fact, one of the young people who came to see me because they had difficulty with payday loans did not go to Wonga because it was for old people. Does my hon. Friend agree that the advertising targets vulnerable groups in our constituencies?
Barbara Keeley
It does target such groups, and those cartoon characters are pernicious, as is the use of celebrities, some of whom should be ashamed of endorsing such products and bringing misery into people’s lives.
The Bill provides that the Financial Conduct Authority shall have power to introduce an additional levy on lenders to fund a debt advice service, which is good. We have heard repeatedly in this debate about the misery that payday lenders are causing people, and it is right that they should fund debt advice services. Such services should be an integral part of the lending process, but that need is too often ignored. Given the profits and growth in the market that I outlined, it is only right for the high-cost credit sector to help with a levy to pay for debt advice services.
Citizens advice bureaux up and down the country are struggling with cuts to their grants from local authorities. I felt the need to enter a 10 km race, which I ran on behalf of my local citizens advice bureau. It was not the sort of help that Front-Bench colleagues can sometimes raise, but I thought it important for those at my local citizens advice bureau to understand that I was prepared to do something to help with funding. The funding of advice services is crucial.
I have three broad concerns about the way the payday loans industry works. The first, which we have heard much about, is the issuing of multiple loans, which is one of the biggest causes of defaulting on the repayment of a loan. Many examples have been provided by the StepChange Debt Charity, which reminds us that findings by the Office of Fair Trading highlighted widespread irresponsible lending. In particular, the scale of repayment problems shows us that such lending is not confined to a small group of rogue lenders.
In 2011-12, about 2.7 million loans—one third of the total—could not be repaid on time, or at all. That is serious, and plainly highlights the issue of affordability. Nearly two thirds of those seeking help with their debt from StepChange have more than one loan, and nearly one third have four or more. In Salford, a person who works at a college on the minimum wage told Salfordonline, a local community website, that she had taken out loans to pay both her rent and council tax—an example of using loans for everyday living costs similar to that presented by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown).
That person said:
“I have poor credit so I went to Wonga, then I got into a mess with interest so I got other loans. At first it was £150, then £300, then I just started paying the interest. Then I got other loans to cover my living expenses, it was out of control and I was missing payments.”
She was finally forced to call in a debt management company, but that, too, was “for a fee”, making her problems worse.
A request for more than one loan should ring alarm bells about the applicant’s financial circumstances and their ability to pay, but no alarm bells appear to be in place in the officers of these lenders. We need tighter controls to ensure that requests for more than one loan trigger comprehensive debt advice, and a repayment plan with a proper assessment of a person’s ability to pay.
We have heard much in this debate—quite rightly—about the volume of roll-over loans where loans are renewed at the end of an initial loan’s repayment period. That business is increasing, and few mechanisms are in place to assess properly the ability of borrowers to repay.
The Office of Fair Trading states that three quarters of payday lenders—a substantial part of the market—are renewing loans without checking whether they will be affordable, even though a roll-over is a clear warning sign that a borrower might be experiencing financial difficulties. The OFT notes that payday lenders have a strong incentive to roll over loans as they make half their revenues that way. I welcome the provisions in the Bill that empower the Financial Conduct Authority to set limits on charges, including interest, and to restrict the ability of lenders to make multiple and roll-over loans.
StepChange tells us that since 2011 the average amount owed in payday loans has increased substantially by £400 to £1,665. On average, people now owe more than a month’s income in payday loans. Average monthly income is now £1,298, and the average owed in payday loans is £1,665. That is a key measure of lack of affordability. Sadly, in my constituency the average owed on payday loans is £1,673, which is even higher than the national average.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central detailed earlier, there is serious concern about how the industry uses and misuses the continuous payment authority. Many hon. Members will have heard about constituents —we have heard some examples today—who are trapped in a cycle of debt that is made worse when the lender uses the continuous payment authority to take money out of their accounts, regardless of the impact on the borrower. As we have heard, money is often withdrawn by the lender with no consideration for the borrower’s essential living costs. Indeed, an example given today by Salford’s citizens advice bureau is of a borrower who fears he will lose his home and his job because payday lenders have left him with only £1.17 a week from his weekly wage. He does not have enough money to travel to work, let alone pay for his other living costs.
Lyn Brown
One of the things that has come up in my surgeries time and time again is how telephone calls and letters from lenders imply to borrowers that their debt to a payday loan company is a priority debt. There is no explanation that the real priority is to keep a roof over their head: paying the mortgage or the rent, and the council tax. Does my hon. Friend have similar examples?
Barbara Keeley
Indeed. One difficulty is that the banks are not straightforward enough with their customers. I strongly support greater controls over the use of the continuous payment authority. People have to be allowed, however much or little income they have, to plan their own finances.
We know from all these examples, and the example cited by my hon. Friend, that not enough borrowers know that they have the right to ask their bank to cancel the continuous payment authority. The Bill gives the FCA the power to require lenders to provide information about the right to cancel from the outset of the loan. This would give people who took out payday loans additional peace of mind that if they got in a mess and things were not working out they could cancel it.
The third area of concern, returning to the point made by my hon. Friend, is the persistent and excessive advertising of payday loans. Citizens Advice tells us that advertising for payday loans has reached saturation point. The adverts are unclear on costs and the potential impact of failure to repay a loan. Also worrying is the use of celebrities and cartoon characters in adverts. How are we targeting a market of responsible borrowing and lending by using cartoon characters? Clearly, young families and vulnerable people are being targeted with blanket advertising on daytime television. It is when I exercise in the gym that I am confronted by this constant advertising, and I find myself wanting to turn away because I get so sick of seeing it. One 32-year-old worker told Salfordonline that he had used Wonga to take out eight short-term loans in one year. He said:
“I was working but needed a little extra cash to help out at home”.
He had used overdrafts and credit cards before but:
“The most recent loan of £200 was taken out over four weeks, with £260 to pay back. I was tempted because it’s so easy to borrow and all the adverts on TV don’t help. The fact that there are no credit checks helps a lot of people into bad financial situations.”
Citizens Advice feels that broadcast advertising for payday loans should be limited to after the 9 o’clock watershed, and should be prohibited from any programme likely to appeal to anyone under the age of 18. It also feels that the measures in the Bill are needed to stop marketing via text messages. The 32-year-old from Salford whom I just quoted highlighted the fact that payday lenders would hold on to his details for six years, and that he was expecting to be bombarded with e-mails and texts offering him more loans. He commented:
“I won’t be using”—
payday loans—
“again, but I wish I could just close down the account so there is no temptation. Once they get their teeth into you they never let you go.”
This morning, Paul Lewis’s money website raised the issue of payday lender QuickQuid, which yesterday sent lots of e-mails to people on its database. They might have been QuickQuid customers who had already paid off their loan, but they seemed to include people who had never paid it back. We have discussed the point about bailiffs; these threatening e-mails warned that action would be taken if the customers did not pay back the debt and that debt collectors would be sent in. It caused great alarm.
Research for Which? found that seven out of 10 payday loan users regretted taking out credit and that half had taken out credit they could not repay. Citizens Advice believes that the Bill would be a key step towards protecting people from some of the worst practices of payday lenders and help better to protect borrowers struggling to repay debts. I pay tribute to the citizens advice bureau in Salford, which gives great help and advice, and to citizens advice groups across the country. I am sure hon. Members might like to pay tribute to their own CABs.
Barbara Keeley
I went on a 10 km run to help my CAB; it was under threat, but we managed to preserve this essential service in my locality. Salford city council offered it accommodation, and it now runs an excellent service from a local council building. That has really helped.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I would like to pay tribute to the CABs and other advice bureaux in Knowsley, which are the last defence for many people seeking advice on what to do when they get into debt as a result of payday loans. It is also important to highlight the significant contribution of credit unions. In Knowsley, they provide not only a lending and deposit service, but a link to banks and credit from the Co-op so that people can buy white goods, for example.
Barbara Keeley
That is an excellent example. We heard earlier about a project run with the backing of Unite—that seemed to cause some amusement among Government Members—in Salford to get a credit union off the ground. We have credit unions serving parts, but not the whole of Salford, which has some very deprived wards, where the whole gamut of loan sharks have been plying their trade. I am concerned that we protect people from the bailiffs and the financial truncheons—I think that is what someone called them earlier—and help them join together in co-operatives.
Mr Howarth
This point has been made repeatedly, but it bears repeating: with multiple loans, roll-overs and all of that, people are eventually driven into the hands of loan sharks, with all the woeful consequences that can have.
Barbara Keeley
Absolutely.
I applaud my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central for introducing the Bill, which could do much to regulate the industry and provide greater safeguards for those who need them most. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham talked about the millions up and down the country in such dreadful situations. There is nothing more worrying than the oppressive feeling of being in debt, yet being unable to pay it back, so this Bill is vital.
Paul Blomfield
Would my hon. Friend like to comment on the important proposals made earlier by our hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) about developing alternative products and the role of credit unions in that process?
Barbara Keeley
I will not.
I hope that the Bill can move into Committee and that there will be an opportunity to discuss ways of improving it. It is vital to the millions of people it would help. We need to—