Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Anna Soubry and Simon Hoare

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I thank the Secretary of State for her comments about amendment 22 and simply urge her to continue to pursue the creation of pensions for the 500 people who are suffering from severe physical injuries as a result of the conflict.

I also rise to support new clause 7, and I will be brief because the situation is simple for me. I have defended and promoted devolution for a decade, but I never thought it would be used as a means of abrogating responsibility for the human rights of anyone within the United Kingdom. It is astonishing that my daughter, who lives in Scotland, could perhaps take up a job in Northern Ireland and then lose the rights that she was born with in the United Kingdom. That cannot be acceptable to anyone in this House, but there are people within the UK who do not have the rights that those of us who sit here today enjoy. New clause 7 would help to put that right, and we should support it.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

I had not intended to speak, but I listened to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) and with great attention to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) who, as the Secretary of State said, argued her case with fluidity, passion and an exemplary understanding of the issues, referring back to the ten-minute rule Bill speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson). Irrespective of what side of the abortion debate line one might find oneself falling, nobody will doubt the passion that the issue evokes or the concern that is expressed.

However, I do say—before anyone starts shouting at me, this may not be the right word to use—that there is a cruelty implicit in new clause 7. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the Bill’s purpose is not to create new law and that civil servants are not empowered to create new law, the hon. Member for Walthamstow said that her intention is not to ride a coach and horses through or to undermine in any way either the Good Friday agreement or the legitimacy of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe—she is a friend—spoke convincingly and movingly. The cruelty of new clause 7 is that, if it is passed, it will raise a huge amount of hope—although not among everyone in the community of Northern Ireland—but it will not address or deliver on that hope. The cases that she cites would in no way be alleviated or resolved by new clause 7. Those who seek a termination will still have to travel to the mainland, but a huge amount of hope would be raised.

We understand, and the hon. Member for Walthamstow understands, the minutiae of new clause 7. And the Secretary of State, because she is advised by a phalanx of officials, understands what the new clause means in law.

[Anna Soubry]

I am standing up for what I believe.

[Simon Hoare]

Of course that is what this place is for, but my right hon. Friend, in essence, said that all the terrible cases she cited would in some way be stopped or resolved and that people would not have to go through any of these things.

[Anna Soubry]

I absolutely did not say that, although it is obviously something that many of us now seek to do. New clause 7 is the gentlest step forward so that the Secretary of State and her good officials can monitor human rights and see what is happening. This is important work. With great respect to my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), he was not here for the whole debate. He does not know, for example, that the situation in Northern Ireland is such that people cannot even be given basic advice at the moment, such is the onerous nature of the law. We are talking about merely looking at the situation, monitoring it and helping the Secretary of State to fulfil her obligations: no false hopes for anyone.

[Simon Hoare]

My right hon. Friend does not have a unique understanding of what happens in Northern Ireland. Many of us will have been to Northern Ireland, will know people in Northern Ireland and will have heard a variety of experiences and views.

I think we know how the media and social media will deal with this. This will be “Abortion has now been made legal in Northern Ireland.” For many that will be a welcome thing, but for others it will be the worst thing imaginable. Whichever side of the argument we sit on, I am firmly convinced that expectations have been artificially inflated, but I am not convinced by the arguments of the hon. Member for Walthamstow that new clause 7 would not fundamentally undermine the very foundations of devolution, with ramifications for both Scotland and Wales. We should resist this new clause.

Points of Order

Debate between Anna Soubry and Simon Hoare

1st reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 23rd May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry not to have given you notice of this, but it flows so naturally from what was said by my right hon. Friend; sorry, by my hon. Friend.

[Simon Hoare]

Right hon. Friend is fine. [Interruption.]

[Anna Soubry]

No doubt in time.

Mr Speaker, it has come to my attention that some constituents are unable to email me. I believe this is a common problem from which all hon. Members are suffering. Obviously, we will not know because the emails do not even get into the spam filters. For some peculiar reason, which I will not trouble you with, I found out that one constituent—she had a very serious concern about a personal independence payment application being refused—had emailed me and included attachments, quite properly, with her email; I found out through another source that she had emailed me. Therefore, I could deal with her inquiry, but I would never have known about it if that other source had not contacted me.

I have contacted the parliamentary authority, PICT, on more occasions than I would care or want to remember, I have to say, to no avail. In short, the spam filters are set too high, and there are certain popular email addresses that simply do not get through even to the spam filters. It is a serious problem, and I simply do not know how we can resolve it. Can you help, Mr Speaker?

NHS Pay

Debate between Anna Soubry and Simon Hoare

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare]

The hon. Lady has burnished her reselection credentials among the Corbynistas in Momentum as Labour approaches its party conference, and she will be grateful for that.

There is another great elephant that needs to be put out of its misery. It has been perpetuated by socialists down the decades, usually at public meetings and the like, that my party wants to privatise the national health service. Let me say in all candour that the Labour party misses the fundamental fact that the Conservatives have been in government for longer than Labour during the existence of the NHS. We have had majorities in three figures and two figures and we have had minorities, so if it was a deep-rooted Tory secret that we wanted to privatise the NHS, having privatised everything else we would have jolly well done it by now. We have no intention of doing so. I was born in an NHS hospital, as were my three daughters.

[Anna Soubry]

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the biggest increase in NHS privatisation—5%—occurred under a Labour Government? The Conservatives’ record is 1%.

[Simon Hoare]

My right hon. Friend is correct, but the Labour party does not like truth spoken unto opposition. Let us hope that we never have to speak truth unto Labour in power, because that would be even worse.

There is a false debate where GPs and pharmacists are in essence private businesses delivering healthcare and advice to our constituents free at the point of use. I think the mindset in the national debate has moved on beyond the cosy intellectual rigour of north Islington, and most people are just keen to enjoy a quality service that is delivered by motivated people in a safe and secure environment. That is at the heart of our policies.

There is clearly fluidity and movement on the pay cap, which is welcome. I used the word “cruelty” a moment ago. When its economy came under pressure, Ireland coped with the management of its health budget by making a vast number of health service workers unemployed. That is one way of dealing with it, but it is not the right way. We have done it the right way, and we are grateful for the forbearance of those at the sharp end. It has not been done out of cruelty or out of intellectual or ideological purity; it has been done out of financial and economic necessity.

As our economy grows, so will the pay packets of those working in our vital public services. I know it is boring, and I know it is an inconvenient truth for the Opposition, but without a strong economy, without people in work, without business confidence and without people paying taxes, it would be an absolute sham to continue funding unsustainable pay increases and the like through borrowing, because that would just lead to cuts and further ruin.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hoare]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Anna Soubry]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?