European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Anna Soubry and David Lammy

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 11th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak this afternoon. Let me start by saying that it is possible for parties to work together to find consensus and bipartisan moments. I see the Secretary of State for Justice in his seat; we have been working together on the review his predecessors asked me to do on the over-representation of black and ethnic minority people in the criminal justice system, and I am grateful for his support and that of his civil servants over the last 18 months.

I wish that I could be speaking in a spirit of co-operation on this subject, but when I think about the Prime Minister taking the position she did and talking about bringing the country back together, I think how far we are from that. Those who wanted to leave talked about giving the British people control—taking back control. Why, then, are we producing a Bill that will, effectively, give that control to the Government of the day, to make decisions behind closed doors, and not to this Parliament, which represents the democratic will of the people? If the Government are genuine about bringing the country back together, surely they allow serious time for reflection, debate and serious amendments to a Bill of this magnitude. Surely they should also come to this House with a degree of humility, having recognised that their proposition at the general election failed spectacularly, and that the context today is very different from the context three or four months ago. None of that has happened.

Then we look at the beginning of the negotiations. We hear a lot about the bill the EU is asking us to pay, but I have to say to those who campaigned to leave, and who are adamant that we should leave, that we are taking 12% of the EU budget out by exiting. We are asking others to pick up that bill. Of course there is a serious bill to pay, and of course it will take months to negotiate it.

We have heard so much from the Secretaries of State for Brexit and for International Trade about how easy this will be. When they go to negotiate with Donald Trump, who is one of the most protectionist Presidents the United States has seen, he will surely want access to our pharmaceuticals and will demand access to our agriculture. It will not be easy; it will take months and years to reach that trade deal. As for those who spend so much time on free movement of people and immigration, when we go to negotiate with the Indians, will they not demand visas for people to come to this country?

I worry, as I am sure hon. Members will understand, about what we have unleashed in this country, about the increase in race hate, and about the nastiness that surrounds this debate. No party is the font of all ideas, but I worry hugely about how the Conservative party has moved to the right to pick up ground ceded by the UK Independence party—[Interruption.] I do. We are in times in which the Anglo-American world is looking inward, in which we are moving back from human rights and in which we are waving goodbye to battles that we fought in decades gone by. This is not the time for this House to spend months and years wrangling about exiting a European Union that has given us so much.

For all those reasons, with very little to be gained—and when the articulation of what is to be gained has been so poor in the past four months—how could we possibly be about to set off on this path? In a constituency such as mine, where people are struggling to make ends meet and the economy is very fragile, as sure as night follows day, as we exit a customs union that the British Retail Consortium—

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Lammy]

I will.

[Anna Soubry]

I share the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. I share his views, and would have campaigned with him to remain, but the simple truth is that the majority of those who voted—52%—voted to leave the European Union. On that basis, we must begin the process of doing so and must see it through, even if he and I do not agree with it.

[Mr Lammy]

I hesitate, because the right hon. Lady and I have agreed on much, particularly free movement. Her bark has been loud, particularly on the “Today” programme, but her actions in the days that followed those contributions have been far less loud.

[Anna Soubry]

Would the right hon. Gentleman like to take that back? Things such as getting a White Paper, which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said she would not give—that is what people like me achieve. The real opposition to much of this comes from those on the Government Benches, not on his.

[Mr Lammy]

I am not sure that the right hon. Lady really wants me to respond.

The point is whether we can get beyond the partisan. I represent a constituency where many people are struggling. Our economy is likely to take a real hit as a result of this move. Trade deals are an aberration and are some years in the future. If we exit under World Trade Organisation rules, we are in for huge rises in tariffs, consumer prices and, potentially, inflation. For that reason alone, in the best interests of my constituents and many people across the country who do not have the privileges of most people in this House, I shall absolutely vote against the Bill.

When we talk about the will of the people, let us remember the 48% who voted against this. Let us think about what they deserve: a Bill that does not grab powers from them; a Bill through which we have ample time to discuss all these issues; and a Department that actually understands the position of the 27 European countries, and faces up to the fact that we are going to have to pay. They do not want to be told that this is going to be easy—that the whole of the European Union cannot wait to do a deal with us. That is not what they recognise. For that reason, it is important that this House does not let this Bill go forward.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Anna Soubry and David Lammy

Committee: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

I agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman says, but I am also reminded of what was said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield. As he rightly asked, who knows where we may be in two years’ time? No one seems to have thought about the issue in those terms. God forbid, but we may not have our Prime Minister then: we may have another Prime Minister, for whatever reasons. We may not have the same Secretary of State, or, indeed, the same Minister of State. Those circumstances could change, and other circumstances could change, such as the economy or the mood in Europe.

There may indeed be circumstances—and the hardline Brexiteers have surely missed this point—from which they may want to protect themselves. They may then want that debate. It is also possible that WTO tariffs and the other developments that the hon. Gentleman and I fear would be in our best interests. That is the whole point: we do not know where we shall be in two years’ time. It is right for us to keep our options open, and it is right for us to have a debate and a vote.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

The right hon. Lady is making her points with her usual eloquence. Does she agree that another context that has clearly changed since 23 June is the geopolitics of the world? We have a new leader in the United States, and some very serious concerns have been raised about Putin in Russia. We certainly do not know where we might be in two years’ time.

[Anna Soubry]

I absolutely agree, and that is exactly the point that many Members across this House are now making.

Corporate Boards (Diversity)

Debate between Anna Soubry and David Lammy

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

I absolutely understand that. Lots of people are doing all sorts of research. After the first Opposition day debate this afternoon, I went to an event in the Shard organised by a foundation called the Pink Shoe Club. It is doing a lot of in-depth work with women to see why, for example, women in small businesses are not having the successes that men have. It is complex. One reason is access to money. Another is that, frankly—I can say this as a woman—it would seem that not enough women have enough aspiration. It is not simply the case that there is still discrimination and bias—I am sure there is and there is no debate about that—but there are lots of other factors. Obviously, with the rise of women through the ranks, there will always be that debate on the topic of children and how women fit their children in with that sort of career and advance. Any man can do it—the problem never seems to stop men having children and continuing their career. It is hugely complicated.

[Mr Lammy]

Does the Minister agree that chairmen and CEOs have to lead and say that the issue is important, and they have to mentor? In that sense, it is no different from politics.

[Anna Soubry]

I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman—he is now my right hon. Friend for the purposes of this debate. When I was a Defence Minister, one thing that really struck me was that the people at the very top of the three armed services undoubtedly got it. They understood that it was unacceptable that there were not enough women, gay people or people from ethnic minority backgrounds making their way up through the ranks in the same way that white, straight men were. After the people at the very top got it, we began to see the most astonishing successes. For example, our armed forces have done particularly well in getting rid of the awful discrimination against gay people. Some progress has been made for people from ethnic minority backgrounds. Frankly, we could do a lot more for women. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it has to come from the top, because that is where the leadership is.

This probably sounds completely obvious to those of us who get it, but it is not about saying, “I want 50% of my board to be women, and I want more people with brown skin on my board, because that’s what we really should be doing.” It is about saying, “We’ve got to have the very best people on our board, so there should be no barriers to them getting there. If there are barriers, how can we be sure that we’re getting the best people?” It is not about saying, “We want more women and more people from ethnic minority backgrounds because that reflects society.” It is about saying, “We want the very best, and that means people with ability have to be able to get on.”

Crime and Policing

Debate between Anna Soubry and David Lammy

Wednesday 8th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) and if I may return a compliment that she was good enough to pay to me before the recess, I hope that it is not too long before she makes the journey down from where she sits today on to the Front Bench. It would be stupid for me to stand here as a criminal barrister of 16 years standing and say that nothing was achieved by the last Administration in 13 years. Many of the things that were done were different, new and effective. But between the two sides of the House, there are some fundamental differences of approach that stem from a difference in the philosophies that drive us to our political parties.

Those differences were exemplified for me by the speech by the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy). He said, with some pride, that under the last Government we had established a police service as opposed to a police force. I could not disagree more with that policy and all that was done to achieve it. It has been hugely harmful not only to the police, but to our society, that we now have police officers who are confused about their role. They should be a police force—a presence on our streets—and not part of social services. In some instances, yes, some officers work beautifully and properly with, for example, youth offending teams, and add something to the process. However, as any parent knows, what stops children from doing something that they should not do is not the fear of what might happen to them if they are caught out, but the fear of being caught out. If people do not think that they will ever be caught, they will carry on doing what they should not do. That is why I want to see some fundamental changes in our police force.

I want the police force to be a police force and a presence. They are public servants, paid for by the public and accountable to the public, but I want them to be on the streets making their presence and their force known.

[Mr Lammy]

I respect the manner in which the hon. Lady makes her remarks, but will she acknowledge that my remarks were particular to certain communities and incidents? She will be well aware of the various inquiries and reports that established that the black community in particular was some way from experiencing a police service.

[Anna Soubry]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman and, in due course, I will touch on my hopes for a much improved police force.

As a criminal barrister, I could speak for ever about this subject, but the clock is against me. I am pleased that one of the first things that the coalition did, to enable our police officers to get on and do the job that they want to do, was to allow our custody sergeants to charge some minor offences. I would like custody sergeants to revert to having the decision about charge on all matters, working in co-operation with the Crown Prosecution Service. They should take the responsibility that they always used to have for the charges that the accused should face. Changes can always be made as more evidence is gathered and leading counsel and other counsel can also play their part.

We all want to see less form filling and bureaucracy. Opposition Members have to accept that for ordinary police officers—whom many of us have dealt with on almost a daily basis in our working lives—that is a true and real frustration. It holds them back from doing the job that they want to do. We have to restore and build confidence, not just in some of the communities to which the right hon. Member for Tottenham referred, but across Britain. We have to restore the confidence of the public in our police. How many times have Members gone along to a residents’ meeting, or knocked on a door while canvassing, and someone says, “You know what, there’s a real problem with kids hanging around outside the Co-op”? It is called antisocial behaviour, but it is actually often low-level criminality. One hears that complaint and asks, “Well, have you rung up and complained about it?”, but then one hears the riposte, “Well, what’s the point? The police never come out, and if they do come out, they won’t do anything about it, and if they do do anything about, it won’t get to court.” And so it goes on. We have to break that cycle, and that sort of work has to start now. By reducing the form-filling and bureaucracy, we will begin at least to make our police more efficient. However, we have to stop this idea that there is no point in contacting our police because they do not have the time or will to do the job.

When it comes to the police and what they give back, I want to see some big changes in how they think and operate. When police officers commit offences, whether like the assault on Ian Tomlinson that lead to his death or like the case in which a police officer recently received a custodial sentence of six months, I want police officers prosecuted fairly, vigorously and swiftly, just like anybody else. There should be no bounds, and the police must be prosecuted properly.

I also want police officers to be prosecuted when they give perjured evidence in court—[Interruption.] I see hon. Members nodding. I know of the work of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner). Like many in the criminal justice system, we have sat in court and heard officers on oath tell lies. That has happened, and we know of it. We also know that they have never been brought to book. That has to change. There is a duty on the Crown Prosecution Service, judges, counsels and solicitors to make those complaints and for them to be taken up, if we are to restore confidence in our police service.

When police officers fail to do their job—I suspect there might be a few more nods of agreement from hon. Members—when they fail to disclose material, as they are statutorily obliged to do, when they fail to seize the CCTV or, if they have seized it, to view it rather than destroy it, or when they fail to disclose it to the defence or put it on to the schedule of material to be disclosed to the defence, those are important matters that should not be left to rest, but must be taken up by the police and acted on in order to restore confidence in our police.

I do not want to sound overly critical of the police, because I have real sympathy for many police officers. In my previous work, I dealt with them on almost a daily basis.