Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Andy McDonald and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it demonstrates an unduly simplistic approach. Indeed, poorer people may have a higher propensity to spend than richer people, but that is not the end point of the economic cycle. There need to be deposits in banks so that money can be lent to businesses—small businesses as well as large—and so that people can take out mortgages. There is a cycle and a flow of money.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why, when I speak to banks—I had a conversation with Barclays bank not many weeks ago—they say that they do have deposits and the ability to lend, but that money is not flowing out because people are not approaching them? Is that the reason or is it that the terms on which they propose to lend money are so onerous that the transactions do not proceed? Whichever it is, my understanding is that the banks do have the funds.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

One of the major flaws that led to the banking crisis was that loan-to-deposit ratios across the banking sector were out of kilter. Banks were lending more than they had on deposit and were therefore entirely dependent on the wholesale market. The wholesale market dried up, which led to a huge calling in of loans. That was at the heart of the financial crisis.

The banks may be saying that they are more comfortable with their loan-to-deposit ratios, but if one looks at the figures, even HSBC’s loan-to-deposit ratio—for its UK business, rather than its international business—is about 100%. Historically, banks have been more comfortable in the 70% to 80% range. We therefore do need more savings in the economy and those come from the better-off saving some of the income that they earn.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman on that at all, because this country attracts a huge amount of foreign investment. Sticking to the example of the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, that company was able to ease its way through the financial crisis because it could lend its overseas deposits to its British business. It was on the backs of savers in Hong Kong and China that HSBC was secure during that period.

Rich people saving their income is a good thing economically because it boosts the pool of saving that is available for productive investment, such as loans to businesses and individuals. Even if the argument were right that this policy is a great boondoggle for the wealthy, which it is not, it would be beneficial because it would help the economy get back on to a path to growth by providing the capital that is needed for the banks to lend.

In summary, it is clear that putting rates up leads to less tax. That is not a sensible thing to do when the Government are short of money. It is not fair, indeed it is unfair, because it puts a greater burden on other members of society who have less ability to pay. It is not morally defensible because high rates of tax are not a moral good and low rates a moral evil; in fact, it is the other way round. People have a right to keep the money that they earn, unless the state can show that it is essential to take it. That is economically beneficial because one of the great problems of our economy is a lack of saving. We are not in the paradox of thrift circumstance, in which excess savings deflate the economy.

For all those reasons, the amendment should be rejected and Her Majesty’s Government should be proud of what they have done. Indeed, they should go further and look to get the higher rate of tax down to 40% and perhaps even to that magic figure of 37%, which, as I said earlier, some studies show would be the perfect rate to maximise revenue, encourage people to work hard and continue us on our path to success.

[Andy McDonald]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood.

I will address the amendment directly. The lowering of the top rate of income tax to 45p will benefit 267,000 people who earn more than £150,000. In my view, it cannot be right that those who earn more than £1 million a year will receive a tax cut of more than £100,000. Families across the country will be £891 worse off on average as a result of the Chancellor’s changes to tax, tax credits and benefits since 2010. I am at a loss as to how that fits with the concept that we are all in it together. The 1% cap on tax credits and working-age benefits means a cut in real terms. At the bottom, inflation outstrips increases in earnings, whereas at the top, earnings outstrip inflation.

Acres of copy have been written about Baroness Thatcher over the past week, but one of her utterances that has not received the attention that it deserves is her expression of disappointment that, despite having made it possible for a small minority of people to gain control of the majority of the wealth of this country, that has not given rise to a greater degree of charity or generosity. Interestingly, it is often those who have the least who give the most. Two examples of such generosity are imprinted on my mind. The first was in 1984, when people from my community made regular trips up to Easington colliery with bags and boxes of food to assist families in County Durham who were finding life such a struggle.

The second example is from recent weeks, when I visited one of the five food banks in my constituency run by the Trussell Trust. It was heartbreaking to hear from the local director of the trust, Nigel Perrott, that food parcels were being sent to my town of Middlesbrough from places such as York and Thirsk. He hails from the home counties and credits people in that part of the country with tremendous generosity. However, he said that he had been surprised and overwhelmed by the generosity of the people of Middlesbrough. When they come out of the supermarkets, they do not donate the occasional tin of beans or packet of rice, but bags and bags of food. It seems that everything changes, but nothing changes. It is perhaps no coincidence that such desperate need arises when the Conservative party is in power.

We used to hear a lot from the Prime Minister about the big society, although a lot less so recently. The genuine big society is, as it ever was, ordinary people looking after each other.