UN Framework Convention on Climate Change

Andrew Turner Excerpts

Thursday 18th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[Dr Whitehead]

Might the Chairman of the Committee wish to consider a distinction between internal domestic prices in the US and its export prices? Might he also reflect on the price of the most recent cargo of liquefied natural gas from the US, and the extent to which it was or was not related to the overriding price of shale gas within the US? The extent to which the competitive advantage of the UK may be exported is very much in doubt, and it is likely that world prices, not US domestic prices, will prevail.

[Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)]

Order. Will Members on both sides of the Chamber ensure that interventions are brief?

[Mr Yeo]

The hon. Gentleman makes another telling point, which is that a US exporter of shale gas, or any other form of gas via LNG, will sell it in the market in which it can get the best price. It is likely, in my view, that we will see regional gas pricing, with the US, and perhaps north America generally, enjoying a very low price, western Europe enjoying perhaps a middle price and Asia possibly an even higher price, depending on how discoveries go. At any rate, there is absolutely no reason why the US should not sell its gas to the highest bidder. Therefore, it will enjoy an even greater competitive advantage if the rest of the world says, “Okay, let’s all just rely on gas,” because the demand for gas will become greater and greater.

I will conclude my remarks rather than take any more interventions, because I am keen to hear what my colleagues have to say.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner]

That point is important. Many national delegations include legislators who are not bearers of ministerial office or part of the Executive. I believe that civil society representatives from the UK were given delegate status at Doha. The Government have, in principle, recognised the importance of reaching out and of there being other avenues and channels of communication at the COP. Certainly from the point of view of GLOBE—

[Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)]

Order. That is enough, Mr Gardiner.

[John Robertson]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend’s point. What he says would have been helpful on occasion. Some of the delegations that I met had made an assumption that I would be at a subsequent meeting, believing that it was important that Britain took a lead, but I could not be there. Not only would my being there have been helpful for the Select Committee; it would have been helpful for Parliament, in effect, to be represented by a member of the Committee. That is something to consider for the future.

Mexico has been mentioned. Along with some of the other countries, Mexico is really taking on board the leadership that has been shown by this country. I met a number of Mexican delegates and people who told me that they were trying to emulate what we did here some years ago, going down the route of a Bill that would give them an energy and climate change policy written in statute. They were impressed by what we had done, to such an extent that I have since met more of them, with my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who is well known in Mexican circles. I met their energy and climate change MPs when they were here, and saw how important the subject was to them.

If a country such as Mexico, which is an emerging nation, can take that subject on board, perhaps there is hope for some of the countries—Brazil, and even China for that matter—that we might say have not been helpful in promoting climate change properly. However, we are all talking, which is a good thing, but talk is cheap and we must ensure that we get some kind of development from it.

I have noticed that some countries—particularly developing nations, although not Mexico in this case—still harbour ill will towards us, the Americans and any others who have done the things that we are telling them not to do. I have pointed out to them that it is important to look at history, from which we can learn for the future. There has always been a nation or some kind of empire leading the way in development. In the UK, that happened during the industrial revolution, which I do not think we should apologise for, because it was an evolutionary step between what went before and what came after. We have moved on from there, and the next evolutionary step is to start to look after our climate. I believe that, with the work that can be done and with cross-Bench co-operation, we can do that and go forwards.

GLOBE was very helpful, as was my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), in setting it up for me to go to COP 18, because I had never been to anything like it. What should also be taken on board before we send someone else is the need to ensure that they know what will happen when they get there and who to contact. Being a delegate would of course make a big difference.

GLOBE hopes that countries such as Mexico and Brazil will sign up to more on climate change; I think that Mexico will—it has done so—and I hope that other countries will, too. The one country not mentioned by the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) was the United States. It has not signed up to anything, but I must say that some of the work done there is way beyond much that we have done. The Select Committee recently went to California, which is still ahead of us on this kind of thing. People there tell us that we are doing a great job, and they look to us; yet what they are doing on efficiency levels and such matters is way beyond what we have done until now. We will get better, however, and we will do it.

I believe that, with the support of the Select Committee and my party—I look forward to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger)—we can ensure that this country is still one of the leaders. In years to come, we will think of Tony Blair as the man who started it all off in relation to bringing energy and climate change into the political arena.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Barker]

My right hon. Friend is comparing two completely different things. He is talking about industrial-scale storage. As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) said, the reality in the developing world is that most people require very small amounts of energy. Typically, they need it to use a laptop, a phone and possibly a refrigerator. Battery storage is not only viable, but happening at scale. There are nearly 500 million people in India off the grid, and hundreds of millions of people in Africa.

[Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)]

Order. I have two points. First, the intervention was too long. Secondly, Mr Lilley needs to bring his remarks closer to the subject.

[Mr Lilley]

I am merely explaining why the COP process is completely ridiculous and will not result in any agreement. We have this unrealistic agreement between the two Front-Bench speakers that the matter will be solved by installing a few wind turbines and solar panels in villages in Tanzania. India and China, in which effectively half the world’s population live, are industrialising. They are industrialising not by building a few windmills and solar panels, but by building nuclear—sometimes, but that is very expensive—coal above all and gas where they have it. Of course they will sometimes use renewables where it is appropriate and where an area is a long way from the grid, but let us not kid ourselves that because we have seen one windmill in Africa, the whole developing world will develop by means of renewables. If the two Front-Bench speakers, who are united in their lunacy, would like to tell me that that is seriously their belief and that they think the developing countries will grow primarily by harnessing renewables, I will give way to them.

[Dr Whitehead]

rose—

[Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)]

Mr Lilley, it is your choice as to who is to speak. Who do you wish to speak?

[Mr Lilley]

The Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mowat]

I just wanted to put my tuppence-worth into the example from Tanzania. If that were the way forward at scale, China would not be building 50 unabated coal stations every year. That is what is happening, but it does not mean that solar power cannot power laptops in Tanzania. The proof is in the pudding. I want to go back to the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley). Where does he see nuclear?

[Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)]

Order. Interventions are too long.

[Mr Lilley]

I am grateful to hear that there is another voice of common sense in this Chamber. Where do I see nuclear? Unfortunately, it has become extremely expensive but it is, none the less, a source of major power that is not dependent on the vagaries of the weather or the fact that the sun goes in at night.

[Dr Whitehead]

For completeness, will the right hon. Gentleman put on the record the extent to which he accepts any externalities in the extraction, transportation and use of fossil fuels, or does he think that they could be made even cheaper by having 12-year-olds dig them out of the ground with no safety rules whatever, no transportation and no concerns? What are his particular parameters in terms of the comparisons he is making?

[Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)]

Order. I am sorry but we must have brief interventions. That will get us back on to a swifter speech.

[Mr Lilley]

I do not know why the hon. Gentleman raises the issue of 12-year-olds being employed in any particular industry; I am not in favour of that. Do I accept that there are externalities involved in the activities? Yes I do, and, for the sake of argument, I will accept all the externalities that are attributed to CO_2. I am simply pointing to the reality that India and China, with half the population of the world, Africa, with a further major share of the world, and Latin America are going to develop by harnessing fossil fuels. We will not prevent them from doing so unless we ourselves are prepared to subsidise the difference between fossil fuels and the cost of renewable alternatives.