Dangerous Dogs Act: Staffordshire Bull Terriers

Andrew Rosindell Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2018 Westminster Hall

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), who led the debate so well on behalf of the Petitions Committee. She said that she is no expert, but she put forward good arguments. As hon. Members will find out, I am no expert on the subject either, but I am a member of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which is considering the relevant legislation, which is why I have been given the pleasure of summing up for the Scottish National party.

In a way it is strange to be having this debate about a petition against a suggestion from an animal rights organisation. People are so concerned about the suggestion that they are getting their retaliation in first by launching this petition. Usually, petitions are launched because of Government intentions or something the Government have already done, so it is certainly unusual that it is not the Government getting a bashing today.

I am a member of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and it sums up this place for me that—as the Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish), has said—we have already had a Minister in front of the Committee to discuss the existing legislation, but that Minister is a Lord in the other place, and therefore we have another Government Minister here to respond to the petition, rather than the Minister who is responsible for the legislation itself. It seems a bit outdated, to say the least.

Turning to the contributions, we heard first from the hon. Member for Warrington North. She started off talking about dangerous dogs and her experience of being bitten twice while out leafleting or canvassing. I share her experience because I have had the same thing. As the Chair of the Select Committee said, the problem is the silent dog that lies in wait and manages to pounce way, way higher than anyone would ever expect a wee dog to be able to pounce. It was amazing how quickly I moved my finger, even though it was too late. I also discovered that trying to soldier on and do further leafleting was a bit of a lost cause when I was dripping blood on to the next door that I went to and on to the leaflets. I thought, “That’s no way to win votes,” so unfortunately I had to give up that day.

The hon. Member for Warrington North is also right about what happened in 1991. There were some high-profile cases and the media demanded some action, which resulted in rushed and flawed legislation. That legislation is still on the statute books, and it should certainly be reviewed. She said that from her perspective there are two questions that we must address: whether breed-specific legislation is the correct tool and, if so, whether Staffordshire dogs should be added to that. However, running through her contribution and those of others was the idea that it is not necessarily the dogs themselves but irresponsible owners who need to be tackled.

The Chair of the Select Committee said that he would not give away any preview of what will be in the Committee’s report, but it might have saved me a bit of work if he had done that. He highlighted the harrowing visit to Battersea Dogs & Cats Home, which illustrated to him the risks of breed-specific legislation and how it is interpreted, and the fact that dogs with good temperaments are being put down. That is inhumane, it makes no sense and it is illogical, and it underlines the flaws in the breed-specific legislation.

The hon. Gentleman gave an interesting statistic that, while 20% of bites can be attributed to terrier-type dogs, they make up a greater percentage of the dog population. That in itself shows that other considerations apply. He said that we need to look at the matter in the round, which I would suggest is a hint of what might end up in the report, because looking at it in the round would suggest to me perhaps having a risk register rather than breed-specific legislation that completely outlaws breeds. I may be wrong, but that is certainly something I am thinking about. He also highlighted the important issue that not all dogs are microchipped and the information in the microchips may not be valid; that is also something we need to look at to ensure that it is done correctly.

In a light-hearted anecdote, the hon. Gentleman also finished with a story about visiting a number of farms where he had to retreat using dustbin lids to fend off dogs. It reminded me of the Billy Connolly joke that what tigers fear most in the world is chairs, because that was what was used to control them in circuses of old. With recycling and the fact that our bins have changed, I worry about how the hon. Gentleman will now arm himself against dogs; I am sure that a wheelie bin is awkward to wheel at speed.

We heard from the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) who, not surprisingly, defended the honour of Staffordshire terriers, as the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) also did. It was interesting to hear how the Staffordshire dog came to be the mascot of the Staffordshire regiment. I noted the hopes of the hon. Member for Stafford that the currently disbanded regiment would be reborn in the future. Unfortunately, given the cuts we have seen to the armed services, I think that is a forlorn hope, but I wish him well in lobbying the Government on that.

Importantly, the hon. Gentleman also highlighted the fact that the RSPCA, the Kennel Club, Dogs Trust and Blue Cross are against Staffordshire terriers being added to breed-specific legislation. Given the quality of the work those organisations do and their reputations, it is important that we listen to them, and their views underline the case. He concluded by saying that we should not vilify an entire breed.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

I apologise that I was not here for the start of the debate; I was chairing a Delegated Legislation Committee. I have owned two Staffordshire bull terriers—in fact, I have had Staffordshire bull terriers for 25 years of my life—and they are the most amazing, gentle dogs. The very suggestion that they should be added to the flawed Dangerous Dogs Act—which should never have been brought in in the first place and which, in my view, has had no effect in making things safer for people in this country—is extremely foolhardy. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that legislation on animal welfare and the safety of the public regarding dogs should be based on dealing with the deed, the action or the use of the dog by irresponsible owners, not on picking on Staffordshire bull terriers, or for that matter any other breed?

[Alan Brown]

I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments. As he said, he has had Staffordshire bull terriers for 25 years. Loving, caring dog owners create loving dogs. That is how it is. Dangerous dogs are created by irresponsible owners, sometimes through neglect and sometimes through wilful behavioural training to create a dangerous dog, which is alarming in itself. We need to tackle those people, rather than worrying about specific dog breeds.

I will touch briefly on some of the evidence I picked up on in the Select Committee inquiry. This might or might not find its way into the report, and I might be at odds with other Committee members, but it seemed to me that the police have said that they are open to changes to breed-specific legislation. They say that other measures are needed to allow controls to be put in place and allow people to tackle dangerous dogs, but they are certainly receptive to changes to BSL.

There needs to be greater information-sharing between various local authorities and individual police forces across England and Wales, so that anyone who is banned from owning dogs because they have had dangerous dogs is tracked if they move from one area to another. That is something that needs to be looked at. Resources for local authorities seem to be an issue, and in some cases, a clearer understanding is needed between the polic and the relevant local authority as to who has most responsibility for enforcing the legislation on dangerous dogs.

As the Chair of the Select Committee said, the Scottish Government have introduced additional legislation in Scotland, the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act 2010, which touches on the general theme of this debate—looking at deeds rather than individual dogs. That Act was,

“designed to highlight the responsibilities of dog owners by putting in place a regime that will identify ‘out of control’ dogs at an early juncture”.

It includes measures to try to change the behaviour of these dogs and, of course, their owners, because owners need to be able to train their dogs and implement the change before the dogs become dangerous. It is about early intervention. That buzz phrase is used quite a lot in politics, but it is clearly important in ensuring the welfare of dogs. The 2010 Act also created a dog control notice regime that permits officers—appointed and authorised by the local authority—to issue dog control notices to irresponsible owners of any dog found to have been out of control, while also setting out what “out of control” means.

The general theme of the debate has definitely been about tackling owners, rather than vilifying individual breeds. There is certainly a case for looking at the existing legislation and bringing forward improvements. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sue Hayman]

The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point. We absolutely have to remember that it is often how we treat an animal that creates certain behaviours.

The RSPCA tells me that, year on year, Staffordshire bull terriers are the one breed that ends up in its centres most often, through no fault of their own. They can often be overlooked because of the preconceptions many people have about them, which, in the overwhelming majority of cases, are simply wrong. As we have heard, Staffies can make great pets, with the more than 150,000 signatures to the petition demonstrating how strongly Staffordshire owners feel. Like any dog, with the right owner, they make great pets.

In evidence to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee’s ongoing inquiry into dangerous dog legislation, the RSPCA said that it believes breed-specific legislation—BSL—is ineffective in terms of public safety and results in the unnecessary suffering and euthanasia of many dogs. It says that BSL should be repealed, and issues around human safety tackled using education and effective legislative measures that do not unnecessarily compromise dog welfare.

The RSPCA goes on to say that BSL fails to deliver what it was designed to do. It has not reduced hospital admissions from dog bites, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North. It has not improved public safety, and it has not reduced the numbers of dogs of the breeds or types it legislates against. The RSPCA wants dog control legislation reformed such that BSL is repealed and replaced, education is put in place to ensure that high-risk behaviour towards dogs is avoided, and all severe and fatal dog bite incidents are properly investigated.

Just before Easter, I was lucky enough to visit Battersea Dogs & Cats Home, and I again met an abandoned dog that was about to be put down after being typed. Staff had exactly the same concerns that we have already heard about. I also visited another rescue centre—Oak Tree, near my constituency, in Cumbria—and had the same situation again. This is not unusual; every time I visit a rescue centre, I am presented with exactly the same situation. Battersea Dogs & Cats Home believes that the Dangerous Dogs Act is ineffective at protecting the public, because, as we have heard, there has been no appreciable reduction in dog attacks since it was passed.

[Andrew Rosindell]

I am pleased to hear the hon. Lady say that. She is coming at this from exactly the right angle. The Dangerous Dogs Act was brought in in 1991 and was a knee-jerk reaction. It has never been effective and has always been completely flawed. There should surely be cross-party consensus to review this legislation so that we have an effective law that protects the public and is not cruel to animals—that have committed no crime and have never bitten anybody—because of their appearance or breed. As the shadow Minister for animal welfare prior to the 2010 general election, I championed reviewing the legislation; sadly, this Government have not yet looked at it properly and dealt with it. Will the hon. Lady work with the Minister to try to find a consensus? The current legislation has to be reviewed and changed.

[Sue Hayman]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I would be happy to work with anyone to improve the legislation, because this is about animal welfare and treating dogs fairly, but also about protecting people. At the moment, the legislation does not work for either of those.

Battersea argues for the abolition or, at the very least, reformation of BSL. It calls it a sticking plaster that does not prevent public harm, and it wants the Government to amend the legislation to ensure that dogs are not put down simply because of their appearance.

It is also right that proper education and community engagement processes should be in place to help the public better understand dog behaviour and to encourage responsible ownership. I am a pet owner—I have a dog, a cat and all sorts—and being a pet owner is so rewarding, but people need to understand, particularly when taking on a dog, that it is a huge responsibility. People need to be better educated when they buy their dogs in the first place. It is clear that, in the wrong hands, any dog has the potential to injure either people or other animals. I have a Labrador, and when I was researching this issue, I was horrified to find out that many Labradors carry out attacks. My dog is so soft that I cannot imagine that it would do that. It just shows that, in the wrong hands, any dog can be dangerous.

To sum up, we need to ensure that we focus on ownership rather than on a particular breed or type of dog. I say to the Minister that it is really important that the legislation has a proper, thorough review. It would be good if that were carried out by DEFRA and we could have some timescales as to when he will be able to look into this issue, because it seems to me, from this debate and from discussion further afield, that there is a pretty broad consensus that what we have on the statute book at the moment simply is not working to protect either people or dogs.

I am very pleased that the Government, in their response to the petition, have said that they have no plans to ban Staffies. I look forward with interest to the EFRA Committee’s report and hope that the Minister will pay close attention to its recommendations.

I shall finish with a plea to the Minister from dog owners everywhere. Let us get the legislation right to protect both the public and dogs. We need the right education to be in place, and we need to focus on how we can effectively tackle irresponsible dog owners, not just the dogs themselves.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Eustice]

To reiterate what I said earlier, the Government have no plans at all to add the Staffordshire bull terrier to the prohibited list. We have been clear about that in response to the e-petition. We have trained police officers who are skilled in identifying the breed and type of dogs, in particular the pit bull terrier, which is the main banned breed that we are concerned with.

In addition to the community protection notices, many forces use non-statutory letters and notices. Those can come in the form of “coming to notice” warning letters and voluntary acceptable behaviour contracts. The notices are simple to use and remove the need for a statutory notice or prosecution. The Government are also committed to public safety and to tackling dangerous dogs through communication and education. Co-operation between the police and local authorities is vital. That is why we have endorsed initiatives such as LEAD—the local environmental awareness on dogs scheme—which encourages the police and local authorities to co-operate and share information when there has been a minor incident, and to provide advice to the dog owner on dog control issues to improve public safety. We also support an increase in awareness at all levels of society, as the hon. Member for Workington (Sue Hayman) highlighted. We are aware that many police forces and welfare charities, such as the Dogs Trust, visit schools to help to raise awareness of responsible dog ownership, and we fully endorse that work.

As several hon. Members pointed out, we need to do more to ensure that dogs are properly socialised, whatever their breed. We have done a lot to tackle the online trading of dogs through our work with the pet advertising advisory group. Dogs that are advertised and sold online have often not been socialised or raised properly. We have also introduced new requirements on pet breeding, particularly dog breeding, and on the sale of dogs to tighten up the licensing regime for people who breed and sell puppies as pets.

We have had a good and thoughtful debate on this contentious issue. I do not pretend that the legislation is perfect, and I understand that some people consider elements of it arbitrary, but for the reasons that I have given, the Government do not believe there is a case for changing the legislation at this time. We believe that we can deal with some of those exceptional circumstances through the exempted index.

[Andrew Rosindell]

I thank the Minister for the assurance that Staffordshire bull terriers will not be added to that list, which will come as a great relief to Staffordshire bull terrier owners across the country. People like me who have owned Staffordshires know that they are fantastic, great British dogs that are not a danger to the general public.

The Minister says that he does not intend to change the legislation, but will he at least consider reviewing it to create a cross-party discussion about how we can move forward? The legislation is flawed, and if the Government say that it will never change, that will condemn many innocent dogs to death unnecessarily for a long time to come, which would be wrong.

[George Eustice]

I had thought we were going to finish on a note of consensus. We can all agree that the Staffordshire bull terrier should not be put on the banned list. The Government have been clear about that.

On my hon. Friend’s final point, the Government are not persuaded at the moment that there is a case for change. I discuss the issue regularly with Lord Gardiner and, as I said, it is complex. We recognise some of the arguments against the current provisions, but we also recognise the risks of deviating from the rules and laws that we have in place.