Cities and Local Government Devolution [Lords] Bill

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

Amendments 43 and 44 are tabled in the name of my hon. Friends the Members for Altrincham and Sale West, for Hazel Grove and for Bury North. Amendment 43 seeks to enable an individual local authority to leave a mayoral combined authority without the need to dissolve and reform the combined authority and provides that where that occurs, the resource is split according to a fair and proportionate division. Amendment 44 would require the Secretary of State to abolish and reform the combined authority when a constituent council wishes to leave. One of the benefits of establishing a combined authority is the long-term stability it offers for the area it covers and the duties it has. These are statutory bodies and that long-term stability is important, but I understand Members’ concerns about how changing circumstances could lead to changes in how the local area would want to work, the geography over which a combined authority should be formed and the functions it should have. I will listen carefully to the comments they make later in the debate.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

On the question of dissolving a combined authority, will not the difficulty always be that pooling and sharing arrangements will have been put in place and borrowing arrangements will have been made that a constituent authority might not easily be able to exit? That would make the long-term stability of the combined authority very uncertain were the amendment to be passed.

[James Wharton]

The hon. Gentleman makes a salient and important point. The Government will not support the amendment for that very reason, but I will listen carefully to the speeches that are made because it is important that we address concerns to the fullest extent to which we are able without attracting from the intention of the Bill and the intention of the Government to deliver on our agenda.

Clause 3 provides flexibility to enable a single local authority to leave, in line with the comments that the hon. Gentleman has just made, if it does not wish to continue to be part of a combined authority. A council can also leave a combined authority once a mayor has been elected for the area of a combined authority without the need for the combined authority to be dissolved and reformed, using exactly the same process as is used to establish such an authority of undertaking a governance review demonstrating that the change would improve the exercise of functions. In addition, a council that wishes to leave a combined authority can do so if it obtains consent from the other constituent councils of the combined authority, and if there is one, the mayor. Again, I will listen carefully to the comments of hon. Members with a view to finding a position that can get broad agreement across the House as the Bill makes progress.

Amendment 39 is tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills). It applies to circumstances in which a combined authority is proposed and seeks to require that no order can be made for a combined authority unless local government electors have been consulted on replacing the existing county councils and district councils with unitary authorities. That moves away from the flexibility we want to be to deliver and puts conditions on deals that we might want to make but that we do not necessarily want to impose. Again, I will listen very carefully to my hon. Friend’s comments later on in today’s discussions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Betts]

I would not want to second guess the motives of the Secretary of State, so I will use my own arguments to resist what the Government are trying to do.

Apart from the inconsistency of approach, the proposals are confusing. That takes me back to the point I made in my intervention on the Minister. In the Sheffield city region the economic powers, which are important and cover skills, economic development and the infrastructure associated with it, are to be devolved to the combined authority, which will cover nine districts—four metropolitan and five non-metropolitan districts. But as I understand it from the deal, the mayor will have responsibility for just transport. So the mayor is to run transport, and the combined authority is to run economic development. The public want some consistency of approach on these matters. I do not believe that the combined authority, the district, would naturally have come forward with a proposal that broke up the responsibilities in this way.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. The difference between his deal and the Greater Manchester deal is that the Greater Manchester deal is within a single metropolitan county, so functions such as police and eventually fire and rescue can also be devolved to the Mayor’s office.

[Mr Betts]

There is a big difference in the Manchester case. I am not arguing that Manchester should have a mayor imposed on it. If Manchester wants that, that is a matter for it, but it is different. In Sheffield we have hybrid devolution, with transport going to the mayor, but the mayor is not going to cover the nine districts. The mayor will cover only four districts—the old south Yorkshire districts—so how are people to understand the devolution deal, which has one set of governance arrangements for economic powers and skills, and another set of governance arrangements for transport, where one set of governance arrangements covers four authorities, whereas the other set covers nine?

The whole purpose of combined authorities is to bring local authorities together on a voluntary basis to cover a travel to work area—the natural economic entity—yet transport, the mayor and the associated powers will not cover the whole travel to work area of Sheffield. This is a real dog’s dinner. It is not going to work, and it is certainly not going to be understood by the public.

That leads me on to my second point. There is a problem with mayoral imposition, which in Sheffield’s case will not cover all five areas. Other districts can choose to join the arrangements for mayors if they wish. My understanding—I may be wrong—is that the districts of north Derbyshire and north Nottinghamshire, which are part of the Sheffield city region, are going to join the combined authority, which they are part of, for the economic powers. However, for transport powers to be devolved to those areas through a mayor, those districts will not merely have to agree, but they will have to get the county, which is the transport authority, or two counties, to agree as well. Does the county have a veto over what happens to devolution in the Sheffield city region?

This is not workable. At the same time as the Sheffield city region has a mayoral possibility, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are looking at having a joint combined authority, which would have a mayor as well. As I understand it, the mayor can exist for the districts of north Derbyshire and north Nottinghamshire only if those districts agree to the county mayor for Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire being created. So they have a veto over that. At some stage, surely, Ministers have to take some responsibility for coming forward with proposals to sort out this mess, or it will stop devolution working effectively in these areas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ann Coffey]

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that when I read an explanatory statement that says:

“The intention of this amendment is that elected mayors will be introduced only if that proposal has been endorsed, in a referendum, by 50% of the population”,

I am likely to believe the Clerks.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend will know that the Greater Manchester devolution settlement came from the bottom up, from the 10 councils of Greater Manchester, and the 10 leaders always intended to appoint an 11th member of the combined authority to act as full-time chair. The mayor merely becomes that 11th member.

[Ann Coffey]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention—his knowledge in this area is comprehensive.

As I was saying, 50% is a very high bar that is unlikely to be reached, so amendment 51 is, in effect, a wrecking amendment intended to stop the devolution of decision making from Whitehall to Greater Manchester. It is a kick in the teeth for the people of Greater Manchester.

The population of Greater Manchester is 2.7 million, and we have a shared sense of identity, even if, at the very minimum, it is, “We’re different from London.” Surely it is right that services to meet the needs of local people should be designed locally. Local people care about that much more than they do about esoteric arguments about organisational arrangements. Greater Manchester comprises 10 local authorities, 11 police divisions and 12 clinical commissioning groups. We have an opportunity to bring those resources together. Too often there are barriers to working together and sharing information and the delivery of services because of boundaries between councils and, for example, health agencies. The combined authority would bring together the strength, competence and experience of the existing local authorities and other agencies in Greater Manchester under the leadership of an elected mayor, which is supported by the 10 local authorities, so that the public can see the public face of that new devolved authority.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Of course, the point is that the Greater Manchester combined authority already exists in statute; it is a body corporate. The Bill will allow the 11th member, who chairs the combined authority, to be directly accountable to the 2.7 million people who live in Greater Manchester. Surely that is a good thing.

[Ann Coffey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; it is a good thing. When people talk to me—and, I am sure, when they talk to him—and ask who they can go to, to them having a mayor makes perfect sense.

Of course, there are outstanding issues with regard to health, but there is nothing in the Bill that will take away from the people of Manchester the right to national health services enjoyed by people elsewhere. The problem in Greater Manchester is the fragmentation of health, so it is good that these proposals will help reduce the number of commissioning organisations and allow providers to work together in a more collaborative way for the benefit of local people. However, we need a funding settlement that gives greater flexibility in developing high-quality health and social care services in the community across Greater Manchester as an alternative to hospital admissions, and at the moment it is difficult for each clinical commissioning group to free up resources in order to do that. Without that investment, the demand for expensive hospital care will continue. The authority cannot simply be a bank that hands out money under the current funding arrangements.

There has been a lot of talk about accountability, but in my experience accountability is at its best when well-informed elected representatives, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), demand answers and are willing to make their case loudly and publicly. No complexity in the arrangements for governance can take the place of that, and that is the accountability that the public expect us to ask for.

Last year I did some work looking into child sexual exploitation across Greater Manchester, at the request of the police and crime commissioner, Tony Lloyd, and following that I published my report “Real Voices” last October. Talking to children at risk of child sexual exploitation, it is absolutely clear that they do not observe local government boundaries, health boundaries or police boundaries, and neither do their predators. The digital age has redefined boundaries. A lot of progress on that has already been made across Greater Manchester. In particular, I want to congratulate Project Phoenix, a cross-boundary, multi-agency response to child sexual exploitation across the whole of Greater Manchester, which is working to ensure that child victims receive the same standard of response regardless of where they live. It has also initiated a very successful “It’s not okay” campaign to build public awareness of child sexual exploitation and help young people recognise when they are being groomed. It is clear that work on this crucial agenda will be enhanced by more devolution powers for Greater Manchester. We must overcome the silos and boundaries that prevent people working together to protect children from abuse.

Amendment 51, if passed, would be a kick in the teeth for the people of Greater Manchester and their children, who have felt for years that their voices have been ignored by Whitehall and Westminster. Devolution and the creation of a mayor offer the opportunity to the people of Greater Manchester to develop services that reflect their priorities and needs. We should take that opportunity and be positive about the opportunities we are being offered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Betts]

I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) said about the need for a wider constitutional settlement. That was apposite, and at some point we will have to address those issues. I agree with his points about subsidiarity and taking that below the level of an individual local authority, and about encouraging the process down.

Fiscal devolution is a challenge, and Members have reflected different perspectives from different parts of the country. It is a challenge, but not one that we should duck. I am Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee, on which the hon. Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) sat in the previous Parliament. He made important and valuable contributions to our report. We found a way to take on board proposals from the London Finance Commission about the wider devolution of property taxes, while recognising the need to protect areas that will perhaps struggle to raise business rates and other property taxes easily, or to get back money from areas that simply watch property prices rise and receive enormous windfalls. We must have balance in the system.

The Committee has begun an inquiry into the workings of devolution and the Bill, but since then the Chancellor has made his announcement about the full localisation of business rates. The Committee will want to come back and look at how that will be done. I think most Members would support the principle behind such a move, but how will we implement it to ensure protection for poorer areas? How will we devolve more powers to local government to take account of the extra money made available as part of that process?

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is right to say that the Select Committee must consider business rates retention in detail. One possible solution for devolved city regions might be the pooling and sharing of business rates. For example, parts of Greater Manchester are key drivers of economic growth, and that wealth should be spread across the whole conurbation for the benefit of all.

[Mr Betts]

My hon. Friend is right, and the Committee made that recommendation in the previous Parliament. It is a way that we can devolve the redistribution process to more local areas. That does not work everywhere, but it would probably work well in areas such as Manchester that have a spread of different local authorities

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

I apologise for the fact that I have only just come into the Chamber for this part of the debate. I have been on Front Bench duty in Westminster Hall.

I am interested in what the Minister is saying about the Secretary of State’s oversight of devolved health in Greater Manchester, which is clarifying one of the issues about which I know a number of Greater Manchester MPs are concerned. May I ask, however, whether any thought has been given to coterminosity? In the case of most of the functions that have been devolved to Greater Manchester, there are coterminous boundaries with the 10 metropolitan boroughs. The NHS is slightly different, in that one of the CCGs—one of my own CCGs, Tameside and Glossop—extends to Derbyshire as well, because Glossop is not part of Greater Manchester.

[Alistair Burt]

I know the area well, and I know exactly what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. Yes, that is part of the consideration, but it is essentially part of the consideration of the combined authority. Not only will it have to devise the working of its services within the confines of what is commonly known as Greater Manchester, but it will have to recognise that some of the provision of those services is carried out by those with cross-border responsibilities, and work something out with the adjoining areas. Nothing in the Bill speaks to that, because it does not relate to what I am discussing—the control of standards and the like—but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. That is part of the process that people will be going through.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alistair Burt]

I have read the report of the debates in the House of Lords on exactly this topic, because there was a lot of confusion. My understanding is that it depends on precisely what the breakdown is. Let us suppose that the breakdown, or failure, is in the way in which services have been put together by the combined authority. This is purely off the top of my head, and does not refer to anything of which I have any current knowledge. Let us suppose that there was a dispute between two constituent areas of Greater Manchester, one of which claimed that there was some inequity between the service that it was receiving and the service being received by the other. It might be claimed, for instance, that the combined authority’s decision was somehow disadvantaging Ramsbottom in favour of Bramhall. In the event of such a dispute, the buck would stop with those who were making the decisions locally, and that is the combined authority. The matter would not go anywhere near the Secretary of State. What the Secretary of State retains responsibility for is the standards and whether or not there has been a breach of NHS duties in relation to anything that falls within his own overall responsibility. So the buck still stops with the constituent authority that is delivering the service. In relation to a CCG that is not performing properly, the buck will stop with the CCG, not the combined authority. If there is a lapse of standards in anything connected with the NHS, ultimately the regulators govern that and the Secretary of State would be responsible. But if it is a decision being taken by those who are responsible for the new combined authority to do with where services go and it is within their remit, it will be a matter for them—the buck will stop with them. The short answer, therefore, is that where ultimately responsibility lies depends on where the breakdown is, but it is clear in relation to each of the services and it does not mean anyone can evade their responsibilities.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) had a better definition of what the Minister is trying to say. He said it is the Secretary of State’s responsibility to set out the “what”, and the “how it is delivered locally” is for local commissioners or the combined authority in the case of Greater Manchester. The “what” remains with the Secretary of State; the “how” is devolved to the local area.

[Alistair Burt]

I think between the hon. Gentleman’s right hon. Friend, me and the Secretary of State we have probably got where we need to get to in relation to this. I wanted to make clear that there will not be a confusion of who is responsible for what; someone is ultimately responsible for each bit, but who is responsible in each particular case depends on where the breach is.