Parthenon Marbles: British Museum Act 1963

Andrew George Excerpts

Wednesday 30th April 2025 Westminster Hall

[Alberto Costa]

Most certainly not. I thank my right hon. Friend for his valued contribution. That is precisely the issue that I do not wish to debate. He may well be absolutely correct to say that these sculptures are of such western significance, and that the way in which they were acquired by the British Museum may have been entirely lawful. That is not the purpose of the debate. My right hon. Friend is an excellent individual for wanting to achieve a deal that would benefit his constituents in Lincolnshire.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alberto Costa]

I will make a further point first.

Let me be clear: this is not a debate about returning all the treasures in the British Museum. If it were, we might be here for another century. I put on record that I collect antiquities, so the idea that they should all be returned to their countries of origin is not one that I share.

This is a very specific debate about one isolated group of items that have a strong identity with a friendly allied country. That identity, and that alone, means there is an opportunity for the United Kingdom to materially benefit from some form of deal or agreement that goes beyond simply possessing the marbles in the British Museum. What sort of creative but dignified win-win scenario could be reached between the UK and Greece?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew George]

I congratulate the hon. Member both on securing this debate and on the manner in which he is approaching it. He is absolutely right that we should not stray into the areas that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) are getting involved in by arguing about the past.

I declare my interest as chair of the British Association for the Reunification of the Parthenon Sculptures and as someone who has campaigned on this issue. I think it would be better to look forward. The UK’s relationship with the European Union is irrelevant to the strength of the case for having a deal with the Greeks on a return.

Going forward, we need to undertake a gracious act. We have a dishonourable past on this issue, and there is a way to redeem ourselves by doing the honourable thing. We are on the cusp of being able to do that, given the chairmanship of the British Museum and the current political environment—I hope the Minister will confirm that.

[Martin Vickers (in the Chair)]

Order. Interventions should be somewhat briefer than that.

[Andrew George]

Sorry, Mr Vickers.

[Alberto Costa]

I welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George), just as I welcome the contributions of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). It is not so much about making a gracious gesture. My argument is about the possibility of achieving a win-win for our two respective countries that offers the United Kingdom material benefits beyond the mere possession of the marbles in the British Museum.

What if consideration were given to returning the marbles over time, perhaps over a generation—20 or 30 years—as a temporary or permanent loan, or through some other legal device? In return, I would expect the Hellenic Republic to lend some of its most highly prized treasures to be exhibited, on a rolling basis, not just in the British Museum but in principal museums across the whole United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

Kalimera, Mr Vickers. It is very good to have this debate and I commend the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Alberto Costa) for bringing it to the House. Interestingly, it is the first one on this issue in this Parliament, and I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak about it.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that UK relations with Greece are extremely warm and tender, and have been for many centuries in many regards. Perhaps Lord Byron is best known in the UK for his poetry, and for being

“mad, bad and dangerous to know”,

but in Greece, he is considered to be quite a hero. That is why I am delighted that we are in the process of having the statue of Lord Byron moved to Hyde Park, where it will have a more prominent display. I know that the Greek Government have been supportive of that. For that matter, I have been to one production of Oedipus in the last few months, and there have been two—albeit rather updated—versions here. I think we all know that Greek culture is a really important part of our foundational understanding of what it is to be a modern democracy. Indeed, the word “democracy” comes from two Greek words, and “telephone”, “oligarchy” and so many other parts of our language are determined by their Greek origins.

The hon. Gentleman was also absolutely right to point to the many millions of British people who go to Greece every year. I think one in four British people goes to Spain every year and one in six British people goes to Greece. That is why it is so important that in the conversations I have had, particularly with my Greek counterparts, both as Tourism Minister and as Culture Minister, we have often focused on those issues more than anything else.

We want to enhance the relationship. This is nothing to do with being a member of the European Union or not being a member of the European Union. I was really delighted only a couple of weeks ago to be invited as a Culture Minister—I think it is the first time this has happened since Brexit—to the informal meeting of Culture Ministers in Warsaw. There are so many areas in which our cultural relationships are intrinsically linked with Greece, not least in our discussions about Ukraine and security in the eastern Balkans. There are so many areas in culture and security where our geopolitical relationship with Greece is absolutely vital. That is nothing to do with whether we are a member of the European Union. That is why we want to press the reset button on our relationship with the EU.

[Andrew George]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Bryant]

I will, but it will limit the amount of time I have to respond to the questions.

[Andrew George]

I welcome the Minister’s opening remarks, particularly about Lord Byron, who, of course, was opposed to Lord Elgin’s actions regarding the removal of the Parthenon sculptures. Clearly, the specific point for today is whether it is possible, under the 1963 Act, for the British Museum to arrange a loan, and whether the Minister and the Government would stand in its way.

[Chris Bryant]

If the hon. Gentleman had let me get on to that subject, we would have got there earlier, but he got to make his point—I think he divided the speech he would otherwise have made into two interventions. That is not something that I ever did when I was—

[Andrew George]

Of course not.

[Chris Bryant]

That is the use of irony, which is also, of course, another fundamentally Greek concept.

I want to say at the outset that the marbles are an extraordinarily significant and important part of Greek and—I would argue—western artistic and architectural understanding. Nobody should ever diminish their importance. Indeed, it is upsetting to think of previous moments when the Acropolis was used as an arsenal, and a big explosion ended up destroying large parts of it. That was many centuries ago. The marbles were built between 447 BC and 438 BC by Phidias, who was one of the greatest of all Greek artists and sculptors. He also designed and built the great statue of Zeus at Olympia, which was one of the seven great wonders of the world, along with the hanging gardens of Babylon and so on.

Many of us who have been to see, both here and in Athens, all the different elements of the marbles know how extraordinary they are, although I worry that we do not quite see them in the brilliance that people would have seen them originally. We know now, from lots of research that has been conducted, that they would have been painted or tinted in some way, and they would really have stuck out. The battle of the Centaurs and the Lapiths, and the frieze with the Panathenaic procession, would have looked very different from how we experience them today.

This is a debate that has gone on for 200 years, although I think the first direct bid from the Greek Government to the UK Government was back in 1983, and it was turned down in 1984. I should make some things very clear. First, the Parthenon marbles—or the Elgin marbles, whatever we want to call them—are not the property of the UK Government. That is sometimes misunderstood, because in different countries, parts of the national patrimony are actually under the direct ownership of the Government. We do not have that structure in the UK. From the outset, the British Museum was set up as an independent body. Its trustees are given fiduciary responsibilities under the British Museum Act 1963 now—it was originally under previous Acts before that—and they have to adhere by them. If they do not, they will find themselves in court. That is one of the aspects of this debate that we have to bear in careful consideration.

One of the questions that has been raised fairly regularly is whether it is legally possible for there to be an indefinite loan. I want to be clear about that issue, because I noted that an article in The Daily Telegraph— I think it followed a conversation that the hon. Member for South Leicestershire had with the paper—talked about an indefinite loan. Let me be absolutely clear that the British Museum Act 1963 states in section 3, on the keeping and inspection of collections:

“Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall be the duty of the Trustees of the British Museum to keep the objects comprised in the collections of the Museum within the authorised repositories of the Museum, except in so far as they may consider it expedient to remove them temporarily for any purpose connected with the administration of the Museum and the care of its collections.”

It is possible for loans to be enabled through an open individual export licence. They are granted by Government, but can be granted only for up to three years. Obviously, the working assumption of anything that is temporary—a temporary licence— is that it is guaranteed that the items are returning. That puts paid under existing law to any idea of an indefinite or permanent loan.

I have read articles where people in Greece say that they are not interested in a loan anyway, because a loan implies that the marbles still belong to the British Museum rather than to Greece. The important point that I am trying to clarify—because I think there has been some misunderstanding—is that under existing law, it would be impossible for there to be a permanent or indefinite loan. The trustees would be required, in seeking a licence to export, to show that they were absolutely certain that the items were returning. I do not think that would be easy if they had arranged a permanent or indefinite loan—the point being that we would have to change the law. The immediate question that the hon. Member may ask is whether we are intending to change the law. We have no intention to change the law.

I will respond to some of the hon. Member’s other questions in writing. He asked about conversations or communications with the Greek Government on this issue since last July. I have met several Ministers, including Culture Ministers and Tourism Ministers, at various different times. The only occasion on which this issue was mentioned was when the Tourism Minister came to see me on 4 November last year, and she very briefly raised the matter. We mostly talked about tourism, but there was a brief mention of the Parthenon sculptures. I will check if there have been any other communications from the Greek Government since last July, but I am not sure there have been. I may be wrong, so I will write to the hon. Member.

There are provisions in the 1963 Act for temporary loans, and my understanding is that the chairman of the British Museum has been in some discussions. We have not been party to those discussions, but he has briefly outlined some of the issues that have arisen, both to me and to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I am not aware of any further developments in that area in recent months. If a suggestion of a temporary loan were to come from the British Museum, there is a process for considering that under existing law, but that would—

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).